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Why do Christians believe God took on flesh and lived amongst us?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Abu.Bakr

    The main miracle of our prophet pbuh is his Quran.
    the main but not the only

    can a jew prove to me that Moses (pbuh) splitted the red sea? can any xtian prove to me that Jesus (pbuh) did a SINGLE miracle?.....you simply can't....and you are not required to because these miracles were for the people of this era because the message of Moses and Jesus (pbut) fitted in the scope of the era they lived and not beyond that...so they needed a miracle which can only work for the people of their times.......but when it comes to the seal of the prophets :saw: and his message which will accompany the humantiy through countless ages until the last day then he was supported with a miracle that will last until the last day......a miracle people are sensing in the 21st century...the 14th century...the 1th century...the 7th century......but what about Jesus (pbuh) and his miracle of raising the dead?.....there is no sign of it now as it fulfilled its purpose with the target "audience"

    but the prophet :saw: had many miracles beside the Quran...you don't see us talking about those miracles because we are more focused on the prime one...the holy Quran
    My toughest fight was with my first wife.

    Muhammad Ali Clay

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    • #17
      I personally am still undecided on this issue of the trinity. And so I read all threads like this with a great deal of interest. I actually have a special notebook where I right down thoughts about the trinity.

      The only thing I would point out about this is that some people want to say definitively that God is somehow completely separate from humanity and it's physically impossible to be both man and God.

      But the only question I have about that is as humans we already understand (sort of ) the duality of something like light. And we know that we don't have a very good explanation for quantum mechanics. Or at least we don't have an explanation that we can understand. Yet it's obviously an important underpinning of our whole existence.

      So, in other words, if we can't understand God's creation (and we really have a lot we don't understand as humans), how can we understand the nature of God Himself? And how can we say so categorically that God could not have come here as a man.

      People say it's impossible for the son of God to be God. But people also said for a long time it's impossible for a single electron to travel through two parallel slits simultaneously and actually interfere with itself. But we know it happens. We have no idea how. But if it didn't happen, we wouldn't even have computers. Such are the mysteries of God's creation.

      Anyway, just some thoughts. I personally have a great deal of respect for Jesus and I think He's probably the best role model to ever live on Earth. And I think in that sense there is certainly something very divine about Him. But I haven't figured out what I believe about the relationship between God (as in Yahweh) and Jesus.

      Something to think about.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by MAsood
        I personally am still undecided on this issue of the trinity. And so I read all threads like this with a great deal of interest. I actually have a special notebook where I right down thoughts about the trinity.
        Did you ever ask yourself why 'specifically' a tirnity ? Why not 4 or 5 or 10 ?
        Why would God limit himself to 3 ?
        Did you also ever wonder if it has roots in ancient Egyptian mtyhology where there was Isis and Osiris, and next them was Pharaoh, who by being king was autmoatically 'the Son of God' ?
        Ancient Egyptian religion had a DEEP impact on Christianity in Egypt, like the concept of Monkhood and celebasy and the fact that the High preist was effectively the ruler fo the nation. It was Egyptian 'chrisitanity' that eventually won the day in Nicea.

        Originally posted by MAsood
        The only thing I would point out about this is that some people want to say definitively that God is somehow completely separate from humanity and it's physically impossible to be both man and God.
        Not all muslims say tha God is seperate from 'Existence' (not humanity).
        I for one see things differently, That God IS everything, not seperate and not one person and certainly not just three entites - but Everything in Existence.

        Ibn El Arabi, the greatest Islamic scholar ever in my opinion, said this about verse (5.72):

        ________________________________________
        005.072 لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ مَنْ يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنْصَارٍ
        005.072 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
        005.072 Laqad kafara alla[th]eena q[a]loo inna All[a]ha huwa almasee[h]u ibnu maryama waq[a]la almasee[h]u y[a] banee isr[a]-eela oAAbudoo All[a]ha rabbee warabbakum innahu man yushrik bi(A)ll[a]hi faqad [h]arrama All[a]hu AAalayhi aljannata wama/w[a]hu a(l)nn[a]ru wam[a] li(l){thth}[a]limeena min an[sa]r(in)

        He said they didnt blaspheme because they said Jesus is Allah, nor did they blaspheme because they said Jesus was the son of Mary, they Blasphemed because they LIMITED Allah to the form of Jesus only.

        Note, there is a big theological difference between saying 'Jesus is Allah' and 'Allah is Jesus' but this isn't something i previously wanted to bring up because there is enough confusion as it is.

        Saying Jesus is Allah is fine if you understand that not ONLY Jesus is Allah, but everything in Existence is Allah. If you say Allah is Jesus that is final and it is blasphemy with no way out.
        In the first form, 'Jesus is Allah', the rest is possible, IE everything else was Allah too like the roman soldiers, the jews, the apostiles the trees around him and so on. But hte second form is a direct limitation to Jesus.

        Of course the same true of the first form IF you see ONLY Jesus as being Allah.

        Although not all muslims share this view, Allah is everything in existemce, infact existence is nothing but Allah's manifestations. Look around you, you will see the merciful, the comapssionate, the avegner, the Just, the Supreme and so on. All Allahs names are everywhere around you because existence is Allahs manifestations.
        Again, in my view, saying Allah is seperate from Creation is a form of idolatry and a limitiation on Allah.

        This is too long and will draw too much flack so I will leave it alone by saying many verses in the Qur'an point to this:

        Originally posted by MAsoon
        But the only question I have about that is as humans we already understand (sort of ) the duality of something like light. And we know that we don't have a very good explanation for quantum mechanics. Or at least we don't have an explanation that we can understand. Yet it's obviously an important underpinning of our whole existence.
        What you call duality is a number in reality. It is a function or variable of creation. It is a physical restriction of creation and the 3 or 4 dimensions we live in. Allah has no such restrictions or limitations nor descriptions.
        You are thinking along the lines of Allah being a physical being and hence physical descriptions/limitations can apply to him or describe him. This is only true if you hold God to have a form and to be restricred by physical existence and this, in all honesty, amounts to Idolatry. It is the same concept greeks had of Zues, Persians had of Mithra and Hindus have of their own Gods.
        It is this VERY concept that Monotheistical relgions came to change and abolish.
        Think about it.

        Everything you have said so far places Allah in Physical existence. In a describable, comprehendable fathomable 'form'. This is very narrow thinking. Allah HAS to be beyond that and has to be above his own creation or he wouldnt be God.

        For God to be GOD and hence the supreme entity that he is, he has to be neither ourside his creation nor inside it, he has to be not 2, not 3 or ten or a thousand different descritpions but ANY and ALL descritpions. He can NOT be one of his own creations, that is probably one of the worst beleifs you can hold for the concept of God and is exactly what Pagans beleived.

        Look at some verses where the Qur'an described God. ( لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ) "Nothing is like him", (كُلَّ يَوْمٍ هُوَ فِي شَأْنٍ) "Every instant he is in a differnt state". These are just two examples of how Allah describes himself in the Qur'an.
        There is also Allah Ahad, Allah SSamaD 'Allah is MOST one and only one' 'Allah is Absolute'.
        This is what one expects of a Monotheistc God, but became human, died, duality and trinity are all concepts of a very Phsycially oriented, phsycially limited and physicall existant God, Agod that exists somewhere in theis universe along with the rest of us and is subject to errors, weaknesses, limitations and so on, not a Supreme one and only one God.

        If you told me that Jesus or Zues or Isis were God I would always find something about them that is weak and think these beings MUST therefor have Gods superior to them. Hence they are NOT gods but dieties.


        I can't help keep asking myself WHY ? WHY does god HAVE to be human or send his Son to wipe away our sins. A powerful and REAL God does things just by willing them not by HAVING to do anything. Any enetity that HAS to do something is not God period.

        Originally posted by MASood
        So, in other words, if we can't understand God's creation (and we really have a lot we don't understand as humans), how can we understand the nature of God Himself? And how can we say so categorically that God could not have come here as a man.

        People say it's impossible for the son of God to be God. But people also said for a long time it's impossible for a single electron to travel through two parallel slits simultaneously and actually interfere with itself. But we know it happens. We have no idea how. But if it didn't happen, we wouldn't even have computers. Such are the mysteries of God's creation.

        Anyway, just some thoughts. I personally have a great deal of respect for Jesus and I think He's probably the best role model to ever live on Earth. And I think in that sense there is certainly something very divine about Him. But I haven't figured out what I believe about the relationship between God (as in Yahweh) and Jesus.
        Something to think about.
        And saying that Jesus is God solves this problem ? Why can't it be that God CREATED a good role model ? Isnt this really the best answer ?
        Also, concerning 'role model' we don;t really know anything about what role he played. We have no accurate scriptures goind back to his time that tell us what he really did or said. We only have what keeps changing every few years until it became the bible.

        .
        Last edited by Moayidd; 03-11-05, 05:27 AM.
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        • #19
          Originally posted by MAsood
          People say it's impossible for the son of God to be God. But people also said for a long time it's impossible for a single electron to travel through two parallel slits simultaneously and actually interfere with itself. But we know it happens. We have no idea how. But if it didn't happen, we wouldn't even have computers. Such are the mysteries of God's creation.
          I guess the question is asked once again, Why would God come to the Earth? Jesus was called a Prophet in the Gospel, MANY times.

          Also, another question I have is why would God need to come to Earth? You guys say that God needs to feel the pain that us humans do, this implies God is not complete and He does not have full knowledge.

          You say God died for our sins, fulfilling the sacrifice traditional to Judaism. I dunno how you can say that God came to Earth to be killed. There is too much wrong with that statement to even start on.

          Also, the infamous John 3:16 says says that God sent his only son because he loved the world so much.

          The first thing this verse shows us is that Jesus was sent by God, not that he was God. Second it tries to say that God is showing us He loves us by sending him; this can be understood in a few ways.

          Their is much proof in the bible which says that we are accountable for our sins, than what's with Jesus dying for them?

          And what about the original sin? You say everyone is born with sin because of Adam. So Jesus has to die for us to clear that sin. Yet earlier in the Bible it says that noone is responsible for the sin of their ancestors. It seems like you are making things up to suit yourselves.

          Jesus says about God in John 5:37 "The Father himself, who sent me, has testified about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form."

          I think you can guess where I'm going with this. Now if I was standing in front of you and saying "You have never seen Abu Bakr and never heard his voice, what would you think?

          Anyway, may Allah guide us all.
          "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


          "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

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          • #20
            Moayidd,

            Thanks for the great points and references. I laughed at the first one, because the first page of my notebook says in huge letters, WHY 3? That's definitely one of the things I wonder about.

            Again I don't necessarily believe in the trinity, but I don't dismiss it as a theory. It's certainly viable. Just because pre-christian pagans believed in multiple incarnations or persons of divine nature, doesn't mean they were wrong necessarily. They may have guessed that part right even as they got the details wrong. I'm not saying that's what I believe at this point, but I certainly can't rule it out. Certainly other ancient civilizations had interesting and valuable insights into the world around them.

            Certainly the history of all religious texts is controversial. The question is whether the Bible or any other text was changed enough for the meaning to be substantially different.

            In the case of the Bible, I have no doubt certain specifics changed, especially with the multiple languages, but I'm not convinced from the evidence I've read that the changes rise to the level of a significant problem.

            Having said that, even if the stories of Jesus and His parables and sayings were completely fabricated, they are still pretty valuable in the sense that they are, in my opinion, a very good story for people to get moral lessons from. If it isn't a real story, then whoever wrote it did a nice job. So at least I look at it that way.

            I'm not Christian, by the way, because I haven't decided how I feel on the divinity issue or the origin and history of the Bible. Although the Bible is a major focus of my research right now.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Abu.Bakr
              I guess the question is asked once again, Why would God come to the Earth? Jesus was called a Prophet in the Gospel, MANY times.

              Also, another question I have is why would God need to come to Earth? You guys say that God needs to feel the pain that us humans do, this implies God is not complete and He does not have full knowledge.

              You say God died for our sins, fulfilling the sacrifice traditional to Judaism. I dunno how you can say that God came to Earth to be killed. There is too much wrong with that statement to even start on.

              Also, the infamous John 3:16 says says that God sent his only son because he loved the world so much.

              The first thing this verse shows us is that Jesus was sent by God, not that he was God. Second it tries to say that God is showing us He loves us by sending him; this can be understood in a few ways.

              Their is much proof in the bible which says that we are accountable for our sins, than what's with Jesus dying for them?

              And what about the original sin? You say everyone is born with sin because of Adam. So Jesus has to die for us to clear that sin. Yet earlier in the Bible it says that noone is responsible for the sin of their ancestors. It seems like you are making things up to suit yourselves.

              Jesus says about God in John 5:37 "The Father himself, who sent me, has testified about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form."

              I think you can guess where I'm going with this. Now if I was standing in front of you and saying "You have never seen Abu Bakr and never heard his voice, what would you think?

              Anyway, may Allah guide us all.
              I'm not sure if those questions are directed at me. If so, I should point out I'm not Christian. Christianity is something I have been studying for a few years now. But I am certainly not a scholar (I have a day job :) ) I could copy answers from my notes to your questions. But that's sort of meaningless these notes are not things that I necessarily believe. But I would refer you to the writings of Thomas Aquinas and Augustine of Hippo. I found Augustine's books to be pretty remarkable works.

              Again, I'm on this forum because I have a few friends who have read this forum and pointed me to it. One person, frankly, is someone who has been trying to revert me back to Islam. And of course, my family are Muslim and a lot of my friends, so I have a general interest in Islam.

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              • #22
                MAsood you come across as an open minded person. You have only spoken about researching the Christian faith. I mean no offence to the bible but the stories about the prophets are also included in the Quran. We believe the Quran is more valid and is 100% the word of God, this is why it has not been changed.

                As I have said before -

                According to the bibles, Prophet Noah is said to have become drunk and stumbling down naked while his son sees him, so he curses his son and all of his descendants. Prophet Lut is made drunk by his daughters than commits incest with them. Prophet David see's a man's wife, commits adultery with her than sends the man to the front lines of the battle so he may be killed and so he could have the man's wife. Prophet Solomon, in his old age is encouraged by his wives to worship idles, which he does. These are the stories of the prophets in the Christian bibles. My point is, we 100% refute anything that is in it.
                I have heard a priest say that when it comes to historical facts, he prefers the Quran over the bible.
                "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


                "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by MAsood
                  I'm not sure if those questions are directed at me.
                  They are questions directed to the Christians, from a former Christian.

                  Originally posted by MAsood
                  someone who has been trying to revert me back to Islam. And of course, my family are Muslim and a lot of my friends, so I have a general interest in Islam.
                  Your loss :)
                  "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


                  "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Abu.Bakr
                    MAsood you come across as an open minded person. You have only spoken about researching the Christian faith. I mean no offence to the bible but the stories about the prophets are also included in the Quran. We believe the Quran is more valid and is 100% the word of God, this is why it has not been changed.
                    Yes, I understand your belief certainly. I was raised Muslim, of course. And I do keep a few different translations of the Qu'ran handy, and I do frequently cross reference those in my studies of the different Christian churches.

                    Again, I appreciate listening to (or in this case reading) Muslims points of view on these matters. Thanks.

                    You give me too much credit by saying I am open-minded. :) You'll see from other threads on this site, that I do have strong opinions on other things. But this issue I can tell you sincerely I am open-minded about.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MAsood
                      And I do keep a few different translations of the Qu'ran handy
                      Different translations? Such as?
                      "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


                      "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Abu.Bakr
                        They are questions directed to the Christians, from a former Christian.
                        Interesting, in the real world (not cyberspace), I have a couple of good friends who were raised Muslims, and are now Christians and other friends who were raised Christian who are now Muslim. Makes for interesting conversation.

                        I take it your former church did not have adequate answers to your questions when you were a member of that church. What church were you a part of (what denomination), if you don't mind me asking?

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                        • #27
                          The former Christians I was referring to were actually 2 close friends of mine. If you wish I can give you their contact details so you may discuss religion with them to a further extent.

                          And if that is not enough, I have contact details of about 10 other brothers and my fiance who are also reverts.

                          They all know the bible and Quranic text in great detail so they might be able to be of great assistance InshaAllah.

                          It is upto you.
                          "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


                          "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Abu.Bakr
                            Different translations? Such as?
                            Ali, Asad, and one printed by the Saudi govt that someone brought me from Mecca. I have Pickthal somewhere downstairs, and I also have it on my computer. I use the USC MSA online database when I want to look up something specific.

                            Any other recommendations? These are the ones that have been recommended to me over the years.

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                            • #29
                              Yusuf Ali is the most popular. Ibn Khathir is the best for interpretation.
                              "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


                              "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by bushbadee
                                Because they are basically pagans.
                                Who are basically Pagans ?
                                Please Re-update your Signature

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