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Why do Christians believe God took on flesh and lived amongst us?

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  • Why do Christians believe God took on flesh and lived amongst us?

    This is in response to Abu. Bakr's questions..

    Abu. Bakr asked why God came to earth. why did He take on human form. It's a very good question because it is the key to whether or not I am commiting Shirk.

    Let me try and explain

    What is the purpose of religion? Why are you a Muslim? Why am I a Christian? Isn't it because we want to follow God? We are both very aware that there is more to this world than just the physical world we see around us. So you have found God through Islam and I through Christianity.

    So where do we go to find the true faith? Why do I believe that belief that Jesus is the way and the truth and the only way to eternal life? More importantly, why do I believe He is more than a Prophet, but is God Himself come in the flesh to live on this earth that He created, amongst those He created?

    We all want to know the Truth and true Religion will call away all doubt when God reveals Himself to us, don't you agree? We all know that God is superior to us in every way and yet in our heart we want to know Him and to follow Him.

    Jesus said in Matthew 11 He came to reveal the Father to us.. He came to make God known to us. Jesus' coming has done three things for any human who craves to know God and to obey Him

    1. Humans can experience God at work in their lives, revealing Himself to us.
    2. WE can know intimate relationship with Him
    3. We can be released of all uncertainty including where we will spend eternity.

    Jesus teachings focused on all these things.. but Jesus said to us that God is Holy.. and to be in relationship with Him, to know Him, and to be released of all uncertainty in our lives, we must be like Him also.

    When we were created we were in perfect relationship to Him and in this relationship we were considered sinless. Adam and Eve followed God's Sharia perfectly until sin entered the world, firstly through the first act of disobedience that we read about in Genesis 1 and then through the sins each one of us commit each day.

    To return to the perfect state we were in at creation, there are some things that are necessary

    1. The removal of the attitude of saying "no" to God. I think this is the strength of Islam. Islam has as it's basic action. submission an attitude of never saying no to God. .. but is this submission enough?
    2. The re-establishment of the original attitude of saying "yes to God." which Jesus calls New birth or being born again.
    3. The removal of our basic willingness to give Satan the right to rule our lives. Even Muslims know his role now is to destroy believers relationship with God.. Satan brings division, false beliefs, hatred, murder (yes, I believe He is the source of all the things you have said in the other threads about actions that are not "muslim" actions. He is the source of all actions that are not "christian" actions as well. Jesus said He had come to bring life, and to bring obedience not to a lot of rules and regulations, but to a heavenly law or Shariah that is set up in the heart of man.

    How did God's coming in flesh make this all happen?

    1. I've been told my life is not in submission to God because I refuse to acknowledge that there is a messenger called Muhammad who is a greater messenger than Jesus Himself. Jesus said we must come to the Father through Him and only as He reveals the Father to us can we know the Father. Jesus said that we must believe He is is the Way to the Father.

    This means that all the previous ways did not lead us to God. They led us away from God. It says that in the past God has spoken to us through His written word and His spoken word through the prophets, but Jesus also said that people refused to listen to the prophets. They had the Law and Prophets but they refused to listen and to obey. So now, God Himself is delivering His own message (Hebrews 1)

    So reason number one that Jesus came is to deliver His own message to us.. . no more would He use just humans who would be ignored by humans.. Now He would come Himself to deliver it.

    2. If simply believing in a religion is not true submission to God.. the act of saying yes to Him, then what is?

    Most religions rely on what they do as a measure of how submissive they are to God. They have a list of religious duties that must be followed to "prove" that a person is submitted to God. Yet, God declared that our own efforts to say yes to Him will never be good enough for His holiness to accept.

    Satan is not stronger than God, but He is stronger than humans and he is putting a huge pressure on humans to keep them away from truth. He will even use religious activities (including Christian ones) to keep people from listening to truth and submitting to it. (Hebrews 2:14)

    If Submission is impossible to produce the "good" enough we need to find God's mercy, then what can be done about it? The Bible declares that before the foundation of the world, before your creation or mine, God had already decided that as this was going to be the result of giving man free will (the right to choose to say yes or no to God) then something must be done or mankind would be eternally doomed. It says that before creation, Jesus was the Lamb slain.. what this means is that God decided on how to restore mankind before mankind was even created.

    But why death? It states in the OT Torah that the wages of sin is death.. the soul that sins will surely die. This principle is the principle of life that is part of God's own character. Jesus said that He had come to be a ransom for many. What does it mean to be a ransom for many? (Matthew 20)

    To understand this, you must understand the concept of propitiation..

    Would you mind if I link you to this website?

    http://www.frontlinemin.org/propitiation.asp

    propitiation is absolutely basic to the reason why Jesus came..





    I will leave this now and return tomorrow as I am tired and busy with home duties

    talk about this and we will talk more tomorrow

    blessings
    *
    .
    http://jameelah61.wordpress.com/

  • #2
    If we should accept your concept of incarnation then you should accept hinduism then. Did you compare the two before accepting the christian concept or are you a christian by birth and just defending it??
    The Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) warned: "Whoever innovates or accommodates an innovator then upon him is the curse of Allaah, His Angels and the whole of mankind." Bukhaaree and Muslim

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by carol_au
      This is in response to Abu. Bakr's questions..

      Abu. Bakr asked why God came to earth. why did He take on human form. It's a very good question because it is the key to whether or not I am commiting Shirk.

      Let me try and explain

      What is the purpose of religion? Why are you a Muslim? Why am I a Christian? Isn't it because we want to follow God? We are both very aware that there is more to this world than just the physical world we see around us. So you have found God through Islam and I through Christianity.

      So where do we go to find the true faith? Why do I believe that belief that Jesus is the way and the truth and the only way to eternal life? More importantly, why do I believe He is more than a Prophet, but is God Himself come in the flesh to live on this earth that He created, amongst those He created?

      We all want to know the Truth and true Religion will call away all doubt when God reveals Himself to us, don't you agree? We all know that God is superior to us in every way and yet in our heart we want to know Him and to follow Him.

      Jesus said in Matthew 11 He came to reveal the Father to us.. He came to make God known to us. Jesus' coming has done three things for any human who craves to know God and to obey Him

      1. Humans can experience God at work in their lives, revealing Himself to us.
      2. WE can know intimate relationship with Him
      3. We can be released of all uncertainty including where we will spend eternity.

      Jesus teachings focused on all these things.. but Jesus said to us that God is Holy.. and to be in relationship with Him, to know Him, and to be released of all uncertainty in our lives, we must be like Him also.

      When we were created we were in perfect relationship to Him and in this relationship we were considered sinless. Adam and Eve followed God's Sharia perfectly until sin entered the world, firstly through the first act of disobedience that we read about in Genesis 1 and then through the sins each one of us commit each day.

      To return to the perfect state we were in at creation, there are some things that are necessary

      1. The removal of the attitude of saying "no" to God. I think this is the strength of Islam. Islam has as it's basic action. submission an attitude of never saying no to God. .. but is this submission enough?
      2. The re-establishment of the original attitude of saying "yes to God." which Jesus calls New birth or being born again.
      3. The removal of our basic willingness to give Satan the right to rule our lives. Even Muslims know his role now is to destroy believers relationship with God.. Satan brings division, false beliefs, hatred, murder (yes, I believe He is the source of all the things you have said in the other threads about actions that are not "muslim" actions. He is the source of all actions that are not "christian" actions as well. Jesus said He had come to bring life, and to bring obedience not to a lot of rules and regulations, but to a heavenly law or Shariah that is set up in the heart of man.

      How did God's coming in flesh make this all happen?

      1. I've been told my life is not in submission to God because I refuse to acknowledge that there is a messenger called Muhammad who is a greater messenger than Jesus Himself. Jesus said we must come to the Father through Him and only as He reveals the Father to us can we know the Father. Jesus said that we must believe He is is the Way to the Father.

      This means that all the previous ways did not lead us to God. They led us away from God. It says that in the past God has spoken to us through His written word and His spoken word through the prophets, but Jesus also said that people refused to listen to the prophets. They had the Law and Prophets but they refused to listen and to obey. So now, God Himself is delivering His own message (Hebrews 1)

      So reason number one that Jesus came is to deliver His own message to us.. . no more would He use just humans who would be ignored by humans.. Now He would come Himself to deliver it.

      2. If simply believing in a religion is not true submission to God.. the act of saying yes to Him, then what is?

      Most religions rely on what they do as a measure of how submissive they are to God. They have a list of religious duties that must be followed to "prove" that a person is submitted to God. Yet, God declared that our own efforts to say yes to Him will never be good enough for His holiness to accept.

      Satan is not stronger than God, but He is stronger than humans and he is putting a huge pressure on humans to keep them away from truth. He will even use religious activities (including Christian ones) to keep people from listening to truth and submitting to it. (Hebrews 2:14)

      If Submission is impossible to produce the "good" enough we need to find God's mercy, then what can be done about it? The Bible declares that before the foundation of the world, before your creation or mine, God had already decided that as this was going to be the result of giving man free will (the right to choose to say yes or no to God) then something must be done or mankind would be eternally doomed. It says that before creation, Jesus was the Lamb slain.. what this means is that God decided on how to restore mankind before mankind was even created.

      But why death? It states in the OT Torah that the wages of sin is death.. the soul that sins will surely die. This principle is the principle of life that is part of God's own character. Jesus said that He had come to be a ransom for many. What does it mean to be a ransom for many? (Matthew 20)

      To understand this, you must understand the concept of propitiation..

      Would you mind if I link you to this website?

      http://www.frontlinemin.org/propitiation.asp

      propitiation is absolutely basic to the reason why Jesus came..





      I will leave this now and return tomorrow as I am tired and busy with home duties

      talk about this and we will talk more tomorrow

      blessings
      *

      Hello Carol,

      I have no doubt, and never had any, that you are sincere in your attempt to find God, and my short comment here on what you said is not to try and take away your effort, it is just to point out some errors in your post.

      You seem to be making the same mistake many are making - choosing what suits you, or what you like, not what is truth.
      No offence at all, but you have not found God through Christianity, you have found what the Gospels might be telling you who God is - Jesus. If that is what you found then you haven't found God.
      Even then, the current Gospels aren't telling you that, it is what you want them to tell you.
      So as not to get into the same old arguments again, let me just say that, if you beelive that God is one, without any buts, ifs or complications, then you have found God. But if your beleif in God makes God anything other than the Glorified, above all limits and above all failings that he is, then that is not God that you are worshipping or that you have found.

      ________________________________________
      018.104 الَّذِينَ ضَلَّ سَعْيُهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَهُمْ يَحْسَبُونَ أَنَّهُمْ يُحْسِنُونَ صُنْعًا
      018.104 "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"
      018.104 Alla[th]eena [d]alla saAAyuhum fee al[h]ay[a]ti a(l)dduny[a] wahum ya[h]saboona annahum yu[h]sinoona [s]unAA[a](n)


      Before you reject Mohamed (Saaws), think WHY you reject him, is it because his message conflicts with what you want the message to be ?
      Afterall, the core of what he said was that there is only ONE God and that he is not a third of three nor does he have a parent nor a son. In addition, the message says, about Mohamed (Saaws) himself, that he is nothing other than a man. Which part of the message don't you agree with ?


      If not a messenger of Allah, then what was he ?
      Think about it.

      .
      Please Re-update your Signature

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by carol_au
        We all want to know the Truth and true Religion will call away all doubt when God reveals Himself to us, don't you agree? We all know that God is superior to us in every way and yet in our heart we want to know Him and to follow Him.
        We believe God has revealed Himself to us through His messengers. Yes, God is superior to us in every way and this is why God and man are 2 seperate entities.

        Originally posted by carol_au
        Jesus said in Matthew 11 He came to reveal the Father to us.. He came to make God known to us. Jesus' coming has done three things for any human who craves to know God and to obey Him

        1. Humans can experience God at work in their lives, revealing Himself to us.
        2. WE can know intimate relationship with Him
        3. We can be released of all uncertainty including where we will spend eternity.
        How can you say that you can have an intimate relationship with God but than say this -

        Jesus said we must come to the Father through Him
        Originally posted by carol_au
        Jesus teachings focused on all these things.. but Jesus said to us that God is Holy.. and to be in relationship with Him, to know Him, and to be released of all uncertainty in our lives, we must be like Him also.
        This doesn't make sense. You say God is Holy, and that we must be like Him. Does that mean we are supposed to be Holy too? We believe Allah is One. He is our King and we are His servants and on the Day of Judgment He will reward His noble servants.

        Originally posted by carol_au
        When we were created we were in perfect relationship to Him and in this relationship we were considered sinless. Adam and Eve followed God's Sharia perfectly until sin entered the world, firstly through the first act of disobedience that we read about in Genesis 1 and then through the sins each one of us commit each day.
        Can I ask you a question, do you believe that the bible has been corrupted? Because their are so many versions of the bible, each with different beliefs, each with different stories. If they were all inspired by Jesus or God, than why are they different? We do not believe God changes His mind, ever. And if Jesus did come to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, why would He do this? Why wouldn't come as 'flesh' once again?

        According to the bibles, Prophet Noah is said to have become drunk and stumbling down naked while his son sees him, so he curses his son and all of his descendants. Prophet Lut is made drunk by his daughters than commits incest with them. Prophet David see's a man's wife, commits adultery with her than sends the man to the front lines of the battle so he may be killed and so he could have the man's wife. Prophet Solomon, in his old age is encouraged by his wives to worship idles, which he does. These are the stories of the prophets in the Christian bibles. My point is, we 100% refute anything that is in it.


        Originally posted by carol_au
        Jesus said He had come to bring life, and to bring obedience not to a lot of rules and regulations, but to a heavenly law or Shariah that is set up in the heart of man.
        Yes, this is what Jesus did. This was the role of the Prophet, to inform the people of God's law.

        Originally posted by carol_au
        How did God's coming in flesh make this all happen?

        1. I've been told my life is not in submission to God because I refuse to acknowledge that there is a messenger called Muhammad who is a greater messenger than Jesus Himself. Jesus said we must come to the Father through Him and only as He reveals the Father to us can we know the Father. Jesus said that we must believe He is is the Way to the Father.
        Mohammed PBUH gained nothing out of his prophethood. He slept on the floor, his clothes were all ripped, he constantly gave charity and he was good to his non-Muslim friends and neighbours. Why would he make up the prophecy for? He was an illiterate, never went to school. How could he have possibly written a book of such greatness? With prophecies that have just recently, in the past 100 years come to pass? I'm am sure you are familiar with the "Like unto Moses" verse, so I shall try and stay on the topic in hand inshaAllah.

        We believe that everyone has their own relationship with God. Their is no intercession needed for us to worship God or to ask Him to forgive our sins. This is why you have so many Muslims standing in a dark room at home, in the middle of the night, with their foreheads on the ground and with tears in their eyes. For the love of Allah and for the hope they He will forgive our sins and grant us paradise. Islam is the only religion which does not guarantee you paradise, yet it is by far the fastest growing religion.

        Originally posted by carol_au
        This means that all the previous ways did not lead us to God. They led us away from God. It says that in the past God has spoken to us through His written word and His spoken word through the prophets, but Jesus also said that people refused to listen to the prophets. They had the Law and Prophets but they refused to listen and to obey. So now, God Himself is delivering His own message (Hebrews 1)

        So reason number one that Jesus came is to deliver His own message to us.. . no more would He use just humans who would be ignored by humans.. Now He would come Himself to deliver it.
        God Almighty did not choose fools for Prophets. He choose people who were able to spread His message, not any Tom, Dick or Harry that wanted to receive revelations. If all previous ways did not lead to God than God must have been a pretty lousy Judge of character to appoint prophets who would not be able to do their jobs. If this where the case, their would be no such things as a prophet.

        Originally posted by carol_au
        Most religions rely on what they do as a measure of how submissive they are to God. They have a list of religious duties that must be followed to "prove" that a person is submitted to God. Yet, God declared that our own efforts to say yes to Him will never be good enough for His holiness to accept.
        In the Arabic language, their is a term called riya which means showing off. Their are people who pray, or become religious just so the people can look at him with respect. These people are hypocrits, for worship should be done for the love of God, and no one else.

        Originally posted by carol_au
        Satan is not stronger than God, but He is stronger than humans and he is putting a huge pressure on humans to keep them away from truth. He will even use religious activities (including Christian ones) to keep people from listening to truth and submitting to it. (Hebrews 2:14)
        Forgive me Carol, but one conclusion I came to a few weeks ago when me and my closest friend (who is an Orthodox christian) were discussing religion. He said to me that satan (Lucipher) was a fallen angel and that he wanted to take over the throne of God. I don't think Christianity gives God the respect He deserves. No one or nothing could ever challenge God, so for Lucipher to start a war against God? God would crush him. Also another reason I don't believe Christianity lacks the respect for God that Islam does is because we know Him as the Greatest of the Great and above all of His creations. Therefore, being above all His creations, their is no room for Him to become equal to His creations.

        Originally posted by carol_au
        If Submission is impossible to produce the "good" enough we need to find God's mercy, then what can be done about it? The Bible declares that before the foundation of the world, before your creation or mine, God had already decided that as this was going to be the result of giving man free will (the right to choose to say yes or no to God) then something must be done or mankind would be eternally doomed. It says that before creation, Jesus was the Lamb slain.. what this means is that God decided on how to restore mankind before mankind was even created.
        The bible also declares that God created light before He created the sun. He called the light day and the dark night but their was yet no sun or moon to accompany the day and night. Anyway, this is a huge discussion on it's own.

        We believe that God created Mankind and Jinnkind with free will. The Angels did not have free will, they did not know how to disobey God because this is the way God intended them to be. And we believe the purpose of life is to submit to God and do good deeds and we will be rewarded. Yeah it sounds nice to have someone die for my sins, but does it make any sense? I'm sorry but to me it doesn't Especially if that someone is the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

        Originally posted by carol_au
        But why death? It states in the OT Torah that the wages of sin is death.. the soul that sins will surely die. This principle is the principle of life that is part of God's own character. Jesus said that He had come to be a ransom for many. What does it mean to be a ransom for many? (Matthew 20)
        I'm sorry I did not understand a word of that. Do you find Islam as confusing as I find Christianity to be?

        Originally posted by carol_au
        To understand this, you must understand the concept of propitiation..

        Would you mind if I link you to this website?

        http://www.frontlinemin.org/propitiation.asp

        propitiation is absolutely basic to the reason why Jesus came..



        Key in understanding propitiation is that it is a transaction between the Father and the Only Begotten Son of God on behalf of sinful man

        Would you sacrifice your son for a friend of your who commited much sin? Now you are saying that Jesus is the Son of God and not God Himself.


        So Jesus's death was satisfiying to His 'father'? Or did I misinterpet that?

        Carol, thank you for your reply. I hope my reply has been beneficial to you and whoever had the patience to read it InshaAllah.
        "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


        "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

        Comment


        • #5
          Carol, I would like to ask 2 questions and would appreciate it if you were able to give me a reply. What is the purpose of life on Earth? And what where the roles of the Prophets of God? Thank you for your time and efforts.
          "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


          "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Moayidd
            You seem to be making the same mistake many are making - choosing what suits you, or what you like, not what is truth.
            Jazakallahu khair for bringing this up akhi.

            In the bible is clearly states the prohibition of swine (pig).

            In the book of Leviticus -

            [Leviticus 11:7-8]

            In the book of Deuteronomy

            [Deuteronomy 14:8]

            A similar prohibition is repeated in the Bible in the book of Isaiah chapter 65 verse 2-5.

            This is one of the small reasons we believe Christians amongst other religions make up their own rules. This is bid3a (innovation) is such a serious issue in Islam. Who are we to make halal what God has made haram and vice versa?
            "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


            "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

            Comment


            • #7
              Because they are basically pagans.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by mohabdul
                If we should accept your concept of incarnation then you should accept hinduism then. Did you compare the two before accepting the christian concept or are you a christian by birth and just defending it??
                The Eastern philosphy of pantheism (everything is god) is what you're talking about. Hindus and New Age people believe that there the world is one--God is you, me, and the dirt we are stepping on.

                But Christianity didn't come out of Hinduism or pantheism or from India. It came from Judaism--a monothesitic religion just like Islam is. It wouldn't be odd or unusual or offensive if it had come from India, but it came from Jewish Palestine. Very odd.
                Please Re-update your Signature

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                • #9
                  1. If Jesus is God and The Father is God and You come to the Father through Jesus, does that mean your means to approach God is through God? If you use God to approach God, why do you need to make two of them?

                  2. If Jesus said that we must believe He is is the Way to the Father and that this means that all the previous ways did not lead us to God, does that mean the ways taught by prophets after he left us would be invalid? Surely the rophet that coes later corrects the errors of the earlier people (who inevitably go astray from what their messengers tell them).

                  3. You say 'I refuse to acknowledge that there is a messenger called Muhammad who is a greater messenger than Jesus Himself'. Yet Jesus said: (I have much to say but you cannot hear me now, the one like me who comes after me) "He will guide you to ALL truth". I think that pretty much sums up the status of the later messenger, whoever he is.
                  I didn't "REVERT" - I EVOLVED
                  Those to whom we gave Scripture before it believe in the Quran. They say, when it is recited to them; Quran 28:52-53

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hanifa
                    1. If Jesus is God and The Father is God and You come to the Father through Jesus, does that mean your means to approach God is through God? If you use God to approach God, why do you need to make two of them?

                    2. If Jesus said that we must believe He is is the Way to the Father and that this means that all the previous ways did not lead us to God, does that mean the ways taught by prophets after he left us would be invalid? Surely the rophet that coes later corrects the errors of the earlier people (who inevitably go astray from what their messengers tell them).

                    3. You say 'I refuse to acknowledge that there is a messenger called Muhammad who is a greater messenger than Jesus Himself'. Yet Jesus said: (I have much to say but you cannot hear me now, the one like me who comes after me) "He will guide you to ALL truth". I think that pretty much sums up the status of the later messenger, whoever he is.
                    :up: jazakallahu khair akhi
                    "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


                    "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SAMAWAT
                      The Eastern philosphy of pantheism (everything is god) is what you're talking about. Hindus and New Age people believe that there the world is one--God is you, me, and the dirt we are stepping on.

                      But Christianity didn't come out of Hinduism or pantheism or from India. It came from Judaism--a monothesitic religion just like Islam is. It wouldn't be odd or unusual or offensive if it had come from India, but it came from Jewish Palestine. Very odd.
                      Although this is a side issue, Beleiving God is everything isn't Panthiesm. Panthiesm is beleiving that God permeats everything which although appears to mean the same thing, is quite different and amounts to Shirk. This is called Fawdaweyah in Arabic and is closer to the Christian/Aristotlian concept of 'proceeding from' which is at the core of the Trinity.


                      .
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                      • #12
                        Why do Christians believe God took on flesh and lived amongst us?

                        because they -- unfortunately -- repeated the mistake of every pagan tribe and nation in the history.

                        this can be due to the early encounter between xtianity and the pagan Roman empire and how the xtians dealt with this encounter, it was a situation of Jihad to enforce the right over the falsehood, and the only alternative of Jihad in such encounters is a compromise, and as this encounter was between faith in one God (xtians) and faith in many Gods (Romans) the early xtians had to compormise about this vital and fundamental issue (and maybe some other minor issues like eating pork meat...etc) a compromise was reached, one God and three in the same time!, a God who came down to earth and walked in our streets...a formula which was very suitable for the Roman pagan mentality, and that may explain the stance of the Pagan emperor Constantine in Nicea when he stood firmly against Arius's teachings.
                        Last edited by Al-Nasser; 03-11-05, 03:24 AM.
                        My toughest fight was with my first wife.

                        Muhammad Ali Clay

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Al-Nasser
                          Why do Christians believe God took on flesh and lived amongst us?

                          because they -- unfortunately -- repeated the mistake of every pagan tribe and nation in the history.

                          this can be due to the early encounter between xtianity and the pagan Roman empire and how the xtians dealt with this encounter, it was a situation of Jihad to enforce the right over the falsehood, and the only alternative of Jihad in such encounters is a compromise, and as this encounter was between faith in one God (xtians) and faith in many Gods (Romans) the early xtians had to compormise about this vital and fundamental issue (and maybe some other minor issues like eating pork meat...etc) a compromise was reached, one God and three in the same time!, a God who came down to earth and walked in our streets...a formula which was very suitable for the Roman pagan mentality, and that may explain the stance of the Pagan emperor Constantine in Nicea when he stood firmly against Arius's teachings.
                          Asalam Alaikum akhi,

                          I pasted this in another forum and since it is relative to what you have said I will repaste it here InshaAllah.

                          But in the same year as Constantine achieved supremacy over the empire (and effectively over the Christian church) the Christian faith itself suffered a grave crisis. Arianism, a heresy which challenged the church's view of God (the father) and Jesus (the son), was creating a serious divide in the church.Constantine called the famous Council of Nicaea which decided the definition of the Christian deity as the Holy Trinity, God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit.
                          Had Christianity previously been unclear about its message then the Council of Nicaea (together with a later council at Constantinople in 381 AD) created a clearly defined core belief. However, the nature of its creation - a council - and the diplomatically sensitive way in defining the formula, to many suggests the creed of the Holy Trinity to be rather a political construct between theologians and politicians rather than anything achieved by divine inspiration.
                          It is hence often sought that the Council of Nicaea represents the Christian church becoming a more wordly institution, moving away from its innocent beginnings in its ascent to power.
                          http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/religion.html

                          Once again I'd like to remind everyone that this is a discussion not a debate. Jazakallahu khair.

                          Wasalamu alaikum and Kul 3om wa untum bi khair to all the Muslimeen.
                          "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


                          "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by hanifa
                            1. If Jesus is God and The Father is God and You come to the Father through Jesus, does that mean your means to approach God is through God? If you use God to approach God, why do you need to make two of them?
                            1. You believe that if you go to heaven, you don't even get to see God. In fact, as far as i can tell. God Has no form, god is not man, and god is formless but yet, for soem reason, you get to SEE god at One point and not know him. Your Reward for your good behavious, is for a Namless faceless, unphysical being, that will ultimately judge you and never make him self accessible to you. Essentially, you worship a creator that demands you do what He ask, but is unwilling to do anything for you. Yahweh, in the New Testement, told the Hebrews to wash, though they were afraid to hear him speak or see him, so he required Moses to be the Interecessor between the Hebrews and God.

                            Don't act superior, when in Fact Allah will show himself to you accordingly Once, in the last day--or will he, since its quite clear that Jesus will apparently rule on earth. Who said he would Rule first? We did.



















                            2. If Jesus said that we must believe He is is the Way to the Father and that this means that all the previous ways did not lead us to God, does that mean the ways taught by prophets after he left us would be invalid?
                            1. No. But those ways, were designed for one reason only, to bring the bloodline clean for the Birth of the Messiah.

                            2. There is little mention of Salvation, but there is distinctly a severe message about Hell.

                            3. The Cleansing ceremonies, that the Hebrews practiced shed the Blood of animals for Sins against God. Paul however notes in Galatians that essentially, Salvation is attained through Faith, and that Even Abraham had no concept of the LAW, he only had faith. Faith came first, and without it, there was nothing. Your insistance on what is Halal and what isn't is essentially following a blind rule book. How many Wahabists, follow the Koran to the T and yet, go out and Blow themselves up? Something you and Moajidd claim the Koran is expressly against, yet Bomber after Bomber goes out and does it with the Sayings of the Koran on his lips.

                            Is the man who says all his prayers, eats no pork and makes Pilgramidges but doesn't in his heart believe? IS he truly saved? I think not.

                            Surely the rophet that coes later corrects the errors of the earlier people (who inevitably go astray from what their messengers tell them).
                            Show me an example of where Elijah Corrected Moses?

                            Show me an Example of where Zacharaiah corrected Elijah?

                            Show me an Example where Soloman corrected David?

                            Show me where Jesus Corrected Moses.?

                            3. You say 'I refuse to acknowledge that there is a messenger called Muhammad who is a greater messenger than Jesus Himself'. Yet Jesus said: (I have much to say but you cannot hear me now, the one like me who comes after me) "He will guide you to ALL truth". I think that pretty much sums up the status of the later messenger, whoever he is.
                            Actually, you are misquoting him, and he never says it will be another man. He also says, the one to come will dwell with you. "My Followers." forever

                            Muhammad did not live forever.

                            Secondly Muhammad could perform No miracles

                            By the sayings of Moses, and what Jesus's sayings, about a messenger to come and if he came not in the "name of Jesus." or if he exhibited no prophecy, and no power from God, he was to be stoned. Muhammad never once referred to God as the Father, nor did he say the name Yahweh, nor did he have a working knowledge of the Torah.
                            Please Re-update your Signature

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by conrack7
                              1. You believe that if you go to heaven, you don't even get to see God. In fact, as far as i can tell. God Has no form, god is not man, and god is formless but yet, for soem reason, you get to SEE god at One point and not know him. Your Reward for your good behavious, is for a Namless faceless, unphysical being, that will ultimately judge you and never make him self accessible to you. Essentially, you worship a creator that demands you do what He ask, but is unwilling to do anything for you. Yahweh, in the New Testement, told the Hebrews to wash, though they were afraid to hear him speak or see him, so he required Moses to be the Interecessor between the Hebrews and God.

                              Don't act superior, when in Fact Allah will show himself to you accordingly Once, in the last day--or will he, since its quite clear that Jesus will apparently rule on earth. Who said he would Rule first? We did.
                              First of all, don't speak when you don't know what you are talking about. God has explained to us in the Quran he has hands, eyes, etc. However, they are not like the eyes, hands that the human has been given. We, as humans do not know of the unseen, what makes you think you do?

                              We see God in Paradise. In fact the greatest reward for a believer is seeing God and the worst punishment for a disbeliever is that he will never see God.

                              You say God is not willing to do anything for us? What did Jesus do for you? Die for your sins? Please, this is something Walt Disney would come up with. God came down to the Earth, He died for our sins and we all lived happily ever after. God will reward those who deserve reward and punish those who deserve punishment, just like in the OT until the NT came out with claims that were never present in the OT - for example Jesus is God.

                              Originally posted by conrack7
                              1. No. But those ways, were designed for one reason only, to bring the bloodline clean for the Birth of the Messiah.
                              God had a bloodline on Earth? Did He have cousins and uncles and aunties also? Why stop at just a son? Who is, according to you Himself?

                              Originally posted by conrack7
                              How many Wahabists, follow the Koran to the T and yet, go out and Blow themselves up? Something you and Moajidd claim the Koran is expressly against, yet Bomber after Bomber goes out and does it with the Sayings of the Koran on his lips.
                              How many people work on the Sabbath when it clearly says in the Exodus 35:2 "whoever does any work on (the Sabbath) shall be put to death"

                              How many Christians and Priests are homosexuals when it clearly says in Leviticus 18:22 "thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abonimation" Yet so many churches today are marrying gay people off?

                              So don't sit here and judge Muslims by saying they don't follow the Quran when obviously the situation you all have placed yourselves in is much greater.

                              Like I stated before, pork according to the bibles are forbidden also -

                              In the book of Leviticus -

                              [Leviticus 11:7-8]

                              In the book of Deuteronomy

                              [Deuteronomy 14:8]

                              But this hasn't stopped either of you from eating it. Convenient isn't it?

                              Originally posted by conrack7
                              Is the man who says all his prayers, eats no pork and makes Pilgramidges but doesn't in his heart believe? IS he truly saved? I think not.
                              First of all, neither one of us are able to judge. If God wills, that person will go to paradise, if God doesn't will, that man will not. And if a man did not believe in his heart, it would be highly unlikely he would pray, not eat pork, and make his pilgrimage anyway.

                              Originally posted by conrack7
                              Secondly Muhammad could perform No miracles
                              The main miracle of our prophet pbuh is his Quran. Allah promised him that He will protect it til the end of time and 1400 years later it has remained unchanged. God gave him this as his miracle because all the previous scriptures revealed to mankind had been corrupted. So it only makes sense to protect the last and final scripture.

                              Originally posted by conrack7
                              By the sayings of Moses, and what Jesus's sayings, about a messenger to come and if he came not in the "name of Jesus." or if he exhibited no prophecy, and no power from God, he was to be stoned. Muhammad never once referred to God as the Father, nor did he say the name Yahweh, nor did he have a working knowledge of the Torah.
                              Well done Einstein, that's because God isn't the father and Jesus said nothing more than "Worship One God, who your God and my God". God is God. My father is inside having lunch.
                              "..Were it not for my contentment in you, I wouldn't, O my Lord, have seen any comfort at all.." [Imaam Ash-Shaafi`ee]


                              "Jesus was man one day and divine the next!" [Da Vinci Code]

                              Comment

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