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    #61
    Re: Regarding Western orientalists...

    Originally posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    This is not a small matter. A lot can be said about this topic both in general and in response to your post.
    I love the Prophet more than I love myself. I hope and pray that I might be with him at al Kauthar.
    And yet, I am a sincere worshiper, servant, slave of Allah. I do not worship the Prophet . I worship Allah, and He said the following:
    Holy Quran (tmq) 48:29:
    So the believers strive to be "those with him" the Messenger are hard against the disbelievers and merciful to each other. And even the appearance of the believers enrage the disbelievers.
    Why is that?
    The Holy Quran (TMQ) 2:98:
    4:101
    And Abdullah ibn Abbas :RA: commented on 2:98 that not just Allah, but the angels and believers are enemies of the disbelievers.
    60:1
    And the matter of alliance support among the believers and enmity and spite against the believers is widely explained in numerous books.
    And this is the original rule and primary position between the believers and disbelievers.
    And more to be said about Makka and the Prophet's mercy shown to the Quraish :insha:
    In the context of Islam, disbelievers are those who have taken other partners with Allah or has taken other gods beside Allah. Similarly, in the context of Christianity, disbelievers are those who do not accept Jesus as God and that he died for the sin of man.

    So, the Christians are disbelievers to the Muslims just as the Muslims are disbelievers to the Christians. However, that is in the context of faith. In the context of living harmony in a society, are the Muslims the enemies of the Christians and vice-versa ? That IS the question, isn’t it?

    The Holy Quran clearly denounces enmity and the use of force in terms of religion. It is ultimately the choice of people to choose any religion (for good or bad), and the duty of the Prophets is not more than conveying, educating people and reminding them of the right path. They have never been authorized to force people.

    The following verses explain this view:

    “Let there be no compulsion in religion; Truth stands clear from error.” (Quran 2:256)

    “If it had been the Lord’s Will, all who are on earth would have believed. Will you then compel mankind against their will to believe?!” (Quran 10:99)

    “Say, the Truth is from your Lord, let him who will believe, and let him who will disbelieve.” (Quran 18:29)

    “You shall remind, for you are the reminder. You are not one to manage (men’s) affairs.” (Quran 88:21-22)

    The sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message, and Allah knows everything you declare and everything you conceal.” (Quran 5:99)

    From Islam’s perspective, there will always be believers and unbelievers – that is the will of Allah SWT. Yes, they are enemies to one another in matters relating to God BUT should they be hostile to one another and one forcing one’s will over the other ? The Quran answers – “Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in one faith], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.” – Quran 5:48

    In other words, Allah SWT wants to test the believers in their faith in what He has revealed. Does Allah SWT wants hostility between believers and disbelievers ? No, He wants believers and unbelievers to live in peaceful harmony and strive for or race to good for to Allah we shall all return and that’s when Allah will preside over matters that the believers and unbelievers differ.

    When you quote Quran Verses like 48:29, 2:98, 4:101 and 60:1, do you know the respective historical background of these verses ?

    Do you know what “And those with him are hard against the disbelievers” means in the context of Quran Surah Al-Fath (Chapter 48) which you quoted ?

    Comment


      #62
      Re: Regarding Western orientalists...

      Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
      In the context of Islam, disbelievers are those who have taken other partners with Allah or has taken other gods beside Allah. Similarly, in the context of Christianity, disbelievers are those who do not accept Jesus as God and that he died for the sin of man.

      So, the Christians are disbelievers to the Muslims just as the Muslims are disbelievers to the Christians. However, that is in the context of faith. In the context of living harmony in a society, are the Muslims the enemies of the Christians and vice-versa ? That IS the question, isn’t it?

      The Holy Quran clearly denounces enmity and the use of force in terms of religion. It is ultimately the choice of people to choose any religion (for good or bad), and the duty of the Prophets is not more than conveying, educating people and reminding them of the right path. They have never been authorized to force people.

      The following verses explain this view:

      “Let there be no compulsion in religion; Truth stands clear from error.” (Quran 2:256)

      “If it had been the Lord’s Will, all who are on earth would have believed. Will you then compel mankind against their will to believe?!” (Quran 10:99)

      “Say, the Truth is from your Lord, let him who will believe, and let him who will disbelieve.” (Quran 18:29)

      “You shall remind, for you are the reminder. You are not one to manage (men’s) affairs.” (Quran 88:21-22)

      The sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message, and Allah knows everything you declare and everything you conceal.” (Quran 5:99)

      From Islam’s perspective, there will always be believers and unbelievers – that is the will of Allah SWT. Yes, they are enemies to one another in matters relating to God BUT should they be hostile to one another and one forcing one’s will over the other ? The Quran answers – “Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in one faith], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.” – Quran 5:48

      In other words, Allah SWT wants to test the believers in their faith in what He has revealed. Does Allah SWT wants hostility between believers and disbelievers ? No, He wants believers and unbelievers to live in peaceful harmony and strive for or race to good for to Allah we shall all return and that’s when Allah will preside over matters that the believers and unbelievers differ.

      When you quote Quran Verses like 48:29, 2:98, 4:101 and 60:1, do you know the respective historical background of these verses ?

      Do you know what “And those with him are hard against the disbelievers” means in the context of Quran Surah Al-Fath (Chapter 48) which you quoted ?
      The enemies of Islam are generally speaking; Kuffar (non-Muslims) & Hypocrites. Islam is the only accepted religion by Allah & whosoever denies it the hell is his abode. We have an example of Abu Talib; the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وسلم) who despite not waging war against Muslims, he dies as an enemy to Allah. He refused to worship his creator even though he showed mercy to his Muslim kins. That, my sister, should tell you what blessings you have been bestowed in Islam.
      ليتني أموت على ما ماتت عليه عجائز نيسابور

      Comment


        #63
        Re: Regarding Western orientalists...

        Originally posted by TURJUMAN View Post
        That should tell you what blessings you have been bestowed in Islam.
        The amazing thing is that it really works in very, very practical situations. If you execute it correctly, it should be very possible to achieve spectacular results. Unfortunately, it only works if you really believe that it will. That is where the perennial problem lies. I can barely give examples where it achieves big results, just with a single person's belief. It is the aggregate belief across large numbers of believers that generates the most incredible outcomes. If you say: "If you try, it should indeed work", most people do not really believe it; and that is in turn why it does not work for them; and then they say "You see, it did not work." Well, yeah, of course, it didn't.

        Comment


          #64
          Re: Regarding Western orientalists...

          Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
          In the context of Islam, disbelievers are those who have taken other partners with Allah or has taken other gods beside Allah. Similarly, in the context of Christianity, disbelievers are those who do not accept Jesus as God and that he died for the sin of man.

          So, the Christians are disbelievers to the Muslims just as the Muslims are disbelievers to the Christians. However, that is in the context of faith. In the context of living harmony in a society, are the Muslims the enemies of the Christians and vice-versa ? That IS the question, isn’t it?

          The Holy Quran clearly denounces enmity and the use of force in terms of religion. It is ultimately the choice of people to choose any religion (for good or bad), and the duty of the Prophets is not more than conveying, educating people and reminding them of the right path. They have never been authorized to force people.

          The following verses explain this view:

          “Let there be no compulsion in religion; Truth stands clear from error.” (Quran 2:256)

          “If it had been the Lord’s Will, all who are on earth would have believed. Will you then compel mankind against their will to believe?!” (Quran 10:99)

          “Say, the Truth is from your Lord, let him who will believe, and let him who will disbelieve.” (Quran 18:29)

          “You shall remind, for you are the reminder. You are not one to manage (men’s) affairs.” (Quran 88:21-22)

          The sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message, and Allah knows everything you declare and everything you conceal.” (Quran 5:99)

          From Islam’s perspective, there will always be believers and unbelievers – that is the will of Allah SWT. Yes, they are enemies to one another in matters relating to God BUT should they be hostile to one another and one forcing one’s will over the other ? The Quran answers – “Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in one faith], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.” – Quran 5:48

          In other words, Allah SWT wants to test the believers in their faith in what He has revealed. Does Allah SWT wants hostility between believers and disbelievers ? No, He wants believers and unbelievers to live in peaceful harmony and strive for or race to good for to Allah we shall all return and that’s when Allah will preside over matters that the believers and unbelievers differ.

          When you quote Quran Verses like 48:29, 2:98, 4:101 and 60:1, do you know the respective historical background of these verses ?

          Do you know what “And those with him are hard against the disbelievers” means in the context of Quran Surah Al-Fath (Chapter 48) which you quoted ?
          Okay, this seems very logical to me. But again I am forced to say that I have seen many different interpretations of Quran Verses like 60:1. Some of them have been very - let's say - radical in their very meaning. They claim that these Verses are not to be read with historical background. And I am sure that enemy of Islam or some sort of non-Muslims will deny what you have said. How should I deal with it? Explain me this, because now I feel quite lost.

          Originally posted by TURJUMAN View Post
          The enemies of Islam are generally speaking; Kuffar (non-Muslims) & Hypocrites. Islam is the only accepted religion by Allah & whosoever denies it the hell is his abode. We have an example of Abu Talib; the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وسلم) who despite not waging war against Muslims, he dies as an enemy to Allah. He refused to worship his creator even though he showed mercy to his Muslim kins. That, my sister, should tell you what blessings you have been bestowed in Islam.
          I have been always thinking like that. It is what Noble Quran says. Is there a special way to interpret this? Should we live in peace with non-Muslims and tolerate their religion or simply avoid them? Does tolerance relate to peaceful non-Muslims (who aren't waging war against Muslims) only?

          Comment


            #65
            Re: Regarding Western orientalists...

            Originally posted by YoungMuslimah78 View Post
            Okay, this seems very logical to me. But again I am forced to say that I have seen many different interpretations of Quran Verses like 60:1. Some of them have been very - let's say - radical in their very meaning. They claim that these Verses are not to be read with historical background. And I am sure that enemy of Islam or some sort of non-Muslims will deny what you have said. How should I deal with it? Explain me this, because now I feel quite lost.

            I have been always thinking like that. It is what Noble Quran says. Is there a special way to interpret this? Should we live in peace with non-Muslims and tolerate their religion or simply avoid them? Does tolerance relate to peaceful non-Muslims (who aren't waging war against Muslims) only?
            The Quran also says many things in relation to tolerance towards non-muslims but according to the sect Turjuman follows, those verses are abrogated. But the point is those verses exist, you can go read Surah Baqarah right now and you will find many like this.

            Comment


              #66
              Re: Regarding Western orientalists...

              Originally posted by Spicen View Post
              The Quran also says many things in relation to tolerance towards non-muslims but according to the sect Turjuman follows, those verses are abrogated. But the point is those verses exist, you can go read Surah Baqarah right now and you will find many like this.
              Thank you for your explanation. May Allah swt reward you. May I know what sect it is? According to the main topic of this thread, the Westerners assume that doctrine of abrogation exists in Sunni Islam in general.

              Comment


                #67
                Re: Regarding Western orientalists...

                Originally posted by YoungMuslimah78 View Post
                Okay, this seems very logical to me. But again I am forced to say that I have seen many different interpretations of Quran Verses like 60:1. Some of them have been very - let's say - radical in their very meaning. They claim that these Verses are not to be read with historical background. And I am sure that enemy of Islam or some sort of non-Muslims will deny what you have said. How should I deal with it? Explain me this, because now I feel quite lost.
                To read Quranic Verses (or, for that matter, even the Biblical verses) without taking into consideration their historical backgrounds and why they were revealed would be NOT understanding the meaning in its proper context.

                For example, anti-Islam groups love to quote a part of Quran 2:191 – “And kill them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them…” as ‘proof’ that Islam preach violence against ALL non-Muslims. Sure, that’s what that verse imply IF you did not consider the historical background of that verse. This verse was revealed at Al-Madinah at a time where a new type of “Muslims”, munafiqin (the hypocrites) began to appear. These are the unbelievers who pretended to enter the Islamic fold with the intention to harm it from within. When their evil intentions and mischievous deeds became manifest, Allah sent detailed instructions about them and how to deal with them. So, when you understand the historical background, then, you will understand that Quran 2:191 was not about killing ALL unbelievers wherever you find them, but it was about killing those hypocrites, the unbelievers who became “Muslims” NOT because they truly believe in Islam BUT because they wanted to harm Muslims and they committed treason by spreading ‘fitnah’ against Islam from within.

                So, should Quran 2:191 be considered as violence against the unbelievers ?? Of course, NOT, as even by today’s law, treasons are punishable by death.
                Last edited by JerryMyers; 24-08-17, 01:47 PM.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Re: Regarding Western orientalists...

                  Originally posted by YoungMuslimah78 View Post
                  Thank you for your explanation. May Allah swt reward you. May I know what sect it is? According to the main topic of this thread, the Westerners assume that doctrine of abrogation exists in Sunni Islam in general.
                  Oh abrogation is a part of Sunni Islam.

                  The question is how many verses were abrogated.

                  You have on one hand, the opinion that only a very few verses maybe as low as 17 verses were abrogated. Such was the opinion of Suyuti and the like thereof.

                  On the other hand, some other scholars claim that many, many verses were abrogated. And usually it's the Makkan tolerant verses that were abrogated.

                  Now on the subject matter of whether we should consider what Umar(Ra) said before he died. One of the last things he said was to take care of the dhimmis and not to overburden them with hardship and over-taxation. You tell me how it is possible to hate non-muslims and simultaneously worry about them in your deathbed at the same time.

                  However, as Prophet(S) said that we muslims must struggle dor Islam so that it becomes the superior religion. It doesn't mean you have to put auto-hate mode on every non-muslim.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Re: Regarding Western orientalists...

                    Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                    To read Quranic Verses (or, for that matter, even the Biblical verses) without taking into consideration their historical backgrounds and why they were revealed would be NOT understanding the meaning in its proper context.

                    For example, anti-Islam groups love to quote a part of Quran 2:191 – “And kill them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them…” as ‘proof’ that Islam preach violence against ALL non-Muslims. Sure, that’s what that verse imply IF you did not consider the historical background of that verse. This verse was revealed at Al-Madinah at a time where a new type of “Muslims”, munafiqin (the hypocrites) began to appear. These are the unbelievers who pretended to enter the Islamic fold with the intention to harm it from within. When their evil intentions and mischievous deeds became manifest, Allah sent detailed instructions about them and how to deal with them. So, when you understand the historical background, then, you will understand that Quran 2:191 was not about killing ALL unbelievers wherever you find them, but it was about killing those hypocrites, the unbelievers who became “Muslims” NOT because they truly believe in Islam BUT because they wanted to harm Muslims and they committed treason by spreading ‘fitnah’ against Islam from within.

                    So, should Quran 2:191 be considered as violence against the unbelievers ?? Of course, NOT, as even by today’s law, treasons are punishable by death.
                    That is very interesting what you have said. Are hypocrites worst than plain non-Muslims?

                    Originally posted by Spicen View Post
                    Oh abrogation is a part of Sunni Islam.

                    The question is how many verses were abrogated.

                    You have on one hand, the opinion that only a very few verses maybe as low as 17 verses were abrogated. Such was the opinion of Suyuti and the like thereof.

                    On the other hand, some other scholars claim that many, many verses were abrogated. And usually it's the Makkan tolerant verses that were abrogated.

                    Now on the subject matter of whether we should consider what Umar(Ra) said before he died. One of the last things he said was to take care of the dhimmis and not to overburden them with hardship and over-taxation. You tell me how it is possible to hate non-muslims and simultaneously worry about them in your deathbed at the same time.

                    However, as Prophet(S) said that we muslims must struggle dor Islam so that it becomes the superior religion. It doesn't mean you have to put auto-hate mode on every non-muslim.
                    According to the abrogations, the question arises who is right and who not. It seems to me that is the very important question for us, Muslims, as the Noble Quran is the word of Allah swt and guide in our lives.

                    For the bolded part of your post, the Westerners don't want to be dhimmis.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Re: Regarding Western orientalists...

                      Originally posted by YoungMuslimah78 View Post
                      According to the abrogations, the question arises who is right and who not. It seems to me that is the very important question for us, Muslims, as the Noble Quran is the word of Allah swt and guide in our lives.

                      For the bolded part of your post, the Westerners don't want to be dhimmis.
                      I didn't write that about Umar(Ra) to argue with westerners, rather it was against the sort of muslims who are on auto-hate mode regarding non-muslims.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Re: Regarding Western orientalists...

                        Originally posted by YoungMuslimah78 View Post
                        That is very interesting what you have said. Are hypocrites worst than plain non-Muslims?
                        That depends on what type of hypocrites are you referring to. Hypocrites can be categorised into 2 types – 1. Hypocrisy in Belief and 2. Hypocrisy in acts.

                        Plain non-Muslims or plain disbelievers cannot be categorized as hypocrites because they proclaim their disbelief and they do not hide their belief. Its only when they enter into the fold of Islam, NOT because they believe, BUT because they wanted to harm and create confusions among the Muslims from within the Muslim community that they become the true hypocrites.

                        Quran 2:191 was making reference to this type of hypocrites who was not only hypocrisy in belief but also hypocrisy in acts. These type of hypocrites are definitely worse than the plain non-Muslims because they confess Islam outwardly while concealing disbelief in it. They act like Muslims and do the things that Muslims do and yet their real intention is to harm the Muslims. These type of hypocrites are definitely the enemies of Islam.

                        Hypocrisy in acts are normally among the Muslims who, when it comes to their Islamic duties, they are not totally sincere. For example, they will go to the mosque to perform their daily prayers NOT because they wanted to BUT because they wanted to project an image of piety to the society and they fear of what the society might think of them if they don’t.

                        Nevertheless, may Allah SWT protect us all from any types of hypocrisy because Allah SWT does not accept any deeds unless they are based on true faith.

                        Comment

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