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Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

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    Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Christians believed they are no longer under the Law because they are told that Jesus had fulfilled and accomplished all the Laws for them when he ‘died’ at the cross and therefore, Christians today are freed from those Laws. In a way, as Jesus' disciples believe Jesus ‘died’ on the cross, it’s understandable why they would also say Jesus fulfilled all the Laws upon his ‘death’, as the only way you can have fulfilled and no longer be under all the laws is your own death for how can a man still observe or adhere to any law upon his death?? However, that only hold true to a dead man but how can the livings too be said to be no longer under the Law upon the death of another ? That’s like believing you are no longer under all the laws (civil laws, traffic laws, criminal laws, etc) because your God-fearing, law-abiding father had fulfilled all those laws on your behalf upon his death. Try to tell that to the police officer who stop you for speeding or for jumping the red light !!

    When Jesus said “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished”, it shows that he too, understood that only death can free you from the Law.

    The phrase “until heaven and earth pass away” would imply the end of time or end of the world when everything as we know it will cease to exist and every living being would have died and it’s also a time when all can be said to have been accomplished (for each own good or bad) since no one will still be alive by then to accomplish anything. In other words, until death or such a time (when heaven and earth had passed away), everyone is subjected to the Law. Thus, whichever comes first (your death on earth or the end of time), those who have been observing and adhering to the Law in their respective lifetime on earth, would also be said to have accomplished in fulfilling all the Laws upon their death or “until heaven and earth pass away” when everything will cease to exist.

    So, the Christians whose main core beliefs are based on man-made teachings under the guise of divine teachings, are really delusional if they believe Jesus had fulfilled the Law for them and they are no longer under the Law.
    Last edited by JerryMyers; 06-08-17, 02:32 AM.

    #2
    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    No such thing as Christians, those who call themselves Christian do not follow the teachings of Christ, they follow Saul/Paul. So it is no wonder they ignore the laws Isa (AS) followed.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

      Nope, they follow secular laws now.
      “Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded? And they say, “There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time.” And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming.” Quran 45:23-24

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

        paul even called the law a "curse"

        that is foul
        "arm yourself with knowledge and laugh at the accusers"
        me - 2017

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

          So if they don't follow the law they can freely worship idols? Which Catholics do anyway.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

            Originally posted by obaid_m View Post
            Nope, they follow secular laws now.
            They always have, and Even Jesus did. i have seen this. Might want to reconsider.

            13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

            Mathew 17 Peter and His Master Pay Their Taxes

            Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

              What do I know the early followers of Jesus were Jews, referred to as "FRIENDS"

              Jesus called them FRIENDS, I believe they follow the rules and laws of Isa (a.s) set by Allah.

              "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." (John 15:14-15)

              But Paul's Christian followers, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11). I don't think they have Shari'ah or Halakhah as a guide for life.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

                Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                Christians believed they are no longer under the Law because they are told that Jesus had fulfilled and accomplished all the Laws for them when he ‘died’ at the cross and therefore, Christians today are freed from those Laws. In a way, as Jesus' disciples believe Jesus ‘died’ on the cross, it’s understandable why they would also say Jesus fulfilled all the Laws upon his ‘death’, as the only way you can have fulfilled and no longer be under all the laws is your own death for how can a man still observe or adhere to any law upon his death?? However, that only hold true to a dead man but how can the livings too be said to be no longer under the Law upon the death of another ? That’s like believing you are no longer under all the laws (civil laws, traffic laws, criminal laws, etc) because your God-fearing, law-abiding father had fulfilled all those laws on your behalf upon his death. Try to tell that to the police officer who stop you for speeding or for jumping the red light !!

                When Jesus said “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished”, it shows that he too, understood that only death can free you from the Law.

                The phrase “until heaven and earth pass away” would imply the end of time or end of the world when everything as we know it will cease to exist and every living being would have died and it’s also a time when all can be said to have been accomplished (for each own good or bad) since no one will still be alive by then to accomplish anything. In other words, until death or such a time (when heaven and earth had passed away), everyone is subjected to the Law. Thus, whichever comes first (your death on earth or the end of time), those who have been observing and adhering to the Law in their respective lifetime on earth, would also be said to have accomplished in fulfilling all the Laws upon their death or “until heaven and earth pass away” when everything will cease to exist.

                So, the Christians whose main core beliefs are based on man-made teachings under the guise of divine teachings, are really delusional if they believe Jesus had fulfilled the Law for them and they are no longer under the Law.
                Would you mind clarifying what Law you are referring to? What laws do you see Christians believe no longer applies to them?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

                  Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                  Would you mind clarifying what Law you are referring to? What laws do you see Christians believe no longer applies to them?
                  Hey Pip1 , long time.

                  For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

                  So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

                  For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

                  Matthew 5:17-20

                  Other than Pauls theology , for what reasons do you reject the clear call of Jesus to Torah Abidance?

                  Jesus didn't say " Believe in the Messiahs death on the cross , instead of the law , because my death will serve a curse and you no longer need the law"

                  His statements are quite clear and his actions and lifestyle is a testament to his beliefs. According to the Bible , he walked this earth as a monotheistic Jew , following Jewish law and customs.

                  Paul was the first Christian , both in creed and deeds.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

                    Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                    Hey Pip1 , long time.

                    For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

                    So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

                    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

                    Matthew 5:17-20

                    Other than Pauls theology , for what reasons do you reject the clear call of Jesus to Torah Abidance?

                    Jesus didn't say " Believe in the Messiahs death on the cross , instead of the law , because my death will serve a curse and you no longer need the law"

                    His statements are quite clear and his actions and lifestyle is a testament to his beliefs. According to the Bible , he walked this earth as a monotheistic Jew , following Jewish law and customs.

                    Paul was the first Christian , both in creed and deeds.
                    Long time indeed. You still haven't elaborated on what law you are referring to. Actually to be fair the OP is Jerrys so no reason why you should get the point he's making. Not sure I do that's why I was asking for some clarification before offering a reply. However, you have responded so one or two points.

                    Firstly, yes Jesus was a Jew as indeed was Paul. The term Christian wasn't applied to followers of the Christ for many years, I'm not sure, but possibly way after Paul. So you can't really claim Paul as the first Christian, tho I'm sure he would have been more than happy to be named such. As a Jew Paul also followed the laws and customs ordained for Jews under the Law of Moses.

                    So what Law? Gods moral Law, Judicial Law or the Ceremonial Law. Jews of course being under all aspects. The Gentiles however were not. They were never under the judicial law or the ceremonial law. Whereas Gods moral law applies to ALL.

                    The law was never the means by which we can be made righteous before God. Its purpose was to define sin and delineate holiness. Jesus was not in any way negating the Law; He was showing us the reason for the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law in that He was the only person to ever keep the whole Law, even in His heart, without sin. Jesus’ point in the Sermon on the Mount which you quote above, was that God sees the heart, and that we are actually held to a higher standard than external conformity to a set of rules. The Pharisees taught that, as long as you did the right things, you were “holy.” - Jesus said not so; “For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20).

                    Jesus is teaching the necessity of having a heart to follow God. Putting on an act and going through the motions of serving God is dishonest. It is also futile, because God sees through the masks we wear. A person who pretends to be holy on the outside yet nurtures a sinful heart is a hypocrite. The Pharisees, whom everyone thought were holy, were guilty of just such dissimulation. God doesn’t want more religious activity. He wants a heart dedicated to Him. Holiness starts on the inside.

                    In Matthew 5:21-22, Jesus says, “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.” The external command was “do not murder.” This is a good command - we should not murder people. But we make a mistake if we think that’s where our responsibility ends. Jesus said, in essence, God sees your heart. If you have hatred in your heart, then you are just as guilty as the murderer in God’s eyes. The Pharisees’ attitude was, “I am good; I haven’t murdered anyone.” Jesus countered, “No, you are guilty because there is murder in your heart.”

                    It’s the difference between the letter of the Law and the spirit behind it. Keeping the letter of the Law doesn’t make you righteous. None of us can keep the whole Law perfectly, anyway. God requires a heart transformation; we must be born again.

                    God is looking for more than the external practice of religion. People might seem holy to other people, but that’s not the standard. Over and over, the Bible stresses purity of heart before the One who examines the heart.

                    As a Christian abiding by the Torah laws does not make me a Jew. Abiding by Gods moral law brings me closer to God, living in Christ closer still. However, Gods law also makes me realise my human frailty and weaknesses and my need for a God given Saviour. You show me one person who is able to abide by all Gods law perfectly and I would say that person lies. To become righteous through the law would mean keeping ALL Gods Law perfectly ALL the time. We all know that's not possible. You put your trust in Gods mercy and justice, it's worth remembering God cannot dispense His mercy at the cost of His justice both have to be satisfied. God alone can do this.

                    By Gods grace.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

                      How nice to have you back, Pip ! Glad I decided to check into this forum today. I must admit that I have not visited this forum for quite some time too as it has been pretty quiet since you left !!

                      Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                      The term Christian wasn't applied to followers of the Christ for many years, I'm not sure, but possibly way after Paul. So you can't really claim Paul as the first Christian, tho I'm sure he would have been more than happy to be named such. As a Jew Paul also followed the laws and customs ordained for Jews under the Law of Moses.
                      Actually you are quite right – ‘Christians’ is the original name given to the disciples of Paul, not Jesus. This was recorded in Acts 11:25-26 :-

                      “Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.”. ‘The disciples’ here are the ‘great numbers of people’ who Paul and Barnabas taught.

                      So, it’s not wrong to say that Christians are the followers of Paul, not Jesus. Probably it was later associated with Jesus because of the ‘Christ’ in the ‘Christian’.

                      Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                      So what Law? Gods moral Law, Judicial Law or the Ceremonial Law. Jews of course being under all aspects. The Gentiles however were not. They were never under the judicial law or the ceremonial law. Whereas Gods moral law applies to ALL.
                      The same Law which Paul referenced when he said “Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes” – Romans 10:4 NIV or “For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.” - Romans 10:4 NLT or “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” – Romans 10:4 KJV. THAT Law !

                      Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                      The law was never the means by which we can be made righteous before God. Its purpose was to define sin and delineate holiness. Jesus was not in any way negating the Law; He was showing us the reason for the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law in that He was the only person to ever keep the whole Law, even in His heart, without sin. Jesus’ point in the Sermon on the Mount which you quote above, was that God sees the heart, and that we are actually held to a higher standard than external conformity to a set of rules. The Pharisees taught that, as long as you did the right things, you were “holy.” - Jesus said not so; “For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20).
                      Jesus is teaching the necessity of having a heart to follow God. Putting on an act and going through the motions of serving God is dishonest. It is also futile, because God sees through the masks we wear. A person who pretends to be holy on the outside yet nurtures a sinful heart is a hypocrite. The Pharisees, whom everyone thought were holy, were guilty of just such dissimulation. God doesn’t want more religious activity. He wants a heart dedicated to Him. Holiness starts on the inside.
                      In Matthew 5:21-22, Jesus says, “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.” The external command was “do not murder.” This is a good command - we should not murder people. But we make a mistake if we think that’s where our responsibility ends. Jesus said, in essence, God sees your heart. If you have hatred in your heart, then you are just as guilty as the murderer in God’s eyes. The Pharisees’ attitude was, “I am good; I haven’t murdered anyone.” Jesus countered, “No, you are guilty because there is murder in your heart.”
                      It’s the difference between the letter of the Law and the spirit behind it. Keeping the letter of the Law doesn’t make you righteous. None of us can keep the whole Law perfectly, anyway. God requires a heart transformation; we must be born again.
                      God is looking for more than the external practice of religion. People might seem holy to other people, but that’s not the standard. Over and over, the Bible stresses purity of heart before the One who examines the heart.
                      Yes, of course, the Law by itself or putting an act of observing the Law don’t make you righteous before God. As you said, ‘it’s the purity of the heart’ in observing and adhering to the Law (of God) that makes you righteous before God. However, It’s also thru the Law that you are guided towards God. Similarly, just believing in the prophets without following what they preached don’t make you righteous before God but it’s the purity of your heart in following the words and teachings of these prophets that make you righteous before God.

                      So, saying Jesus is the end of the Law, and by just believing this makes you right with God sounds like someone wanted to take the short-cut to the Kingdom of God but that’s not how it works. Everyone is subjected to the Law of God - no one, not even the prophets, including Jesus, is excluded from the Law. If these prophets of God are not excluded from the Law, what makes you think by believing Jesus is the end of the Law makes you excluded from the Law that is, make it right with God ? God said that ?? Jesus himself said that ?? Oh ya, I forgot – you are a Christian, you are a follower of Paul, that explains everything !

                      Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                      To become righteous through the law would mean keeping ALL Gods Law perfectly ALL the time. We all know that's not possible. You put your trust in Gods mercy and justice, it's worth remembering God cannot dispense His mercy at the cost of His justice both have to be satisfied. God alone can do this
                      Why would you say keeping ALL God’s Law perfectly ALL the time is NOT possible ?? Which God’s Law that you think is impossible to keep ALL the time ?? God gave His Law because we have the capability to keep them perfectly ALL the time. Its only a question of whether you want to develop that capability or not.

                      God sent His chosen prophets thru the ages of time to guide us and teach us so that we have that capability to resist temptations and keep ALL His Law perfectly ALL the time. Its only when we forgot about God that keeps us away from keeping ALL God’s Law perfectly ALL the time. Just think of God all the time and trust me, you will have the capability to keep ALL of His Law ALL the time.

                      Its only people who do NOT want to develop that capability will justify themselves by making statements like “We all know that's (keeping the Law all the time) not possible”.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

                        Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                        How nice to have you back, Pip ! Glad I decided to check into this forum today. I must admit that I have not visited this forum for quite some time too as it has been pretty quiet since you left !!
                        Yeah well, it's not that welcoming for non Muslims, this section anyway. I can understand why some join make a post never to return. For me I guess I must like the banter.


                        Actually you are quite right – ‘Christians’ is the original name given to the disciples of Paul, not Jesus. This was recorded in Acts 11:25-26 :-

                        “Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.”. ‘The disciples’ here are the ‘great numbers of people’ who Paul and Barnabas taught.

                        So, it’s not wrong to say that Christians are the followers of Paul, not Jesus. Probably it was later associated with Jesus because of the ‘Christ’ in the ‘Christian’.
                        Read up about the early Christians, they were first known as followers of the way. The first followers were undoubtedly the disciples, all of which bar one were martyred for the Gospel of Jesus Christ they taught. I always had Peter down as the first, seeing it was Peter that kind of founded the "church". If you read Acts leading up to 11:25-26. Some of the disciples are mentioned as teaching the Gospel, seeing as Paul taught the same Gospel - the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then I'm good with that. The term Christian may well have derived from the name Christ., very probably did. The teachings are Jesus' so it makes sense.


                        The same Law which Paul referenced when he said “Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes” – Romans 10:4 NIV or “For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.” - Romans 10:4 NLT or “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” – Romans 10:4 KJV. THAT Law !
                        I believe we touched on what is meant by Jesus fulfilling the Law, or Jesus is the culmination of the Law in other posts. So is it worth rehashing? But this sums it up ~ As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God ~

                        Yes, of course, the Law by itself or putting an act of observing the Law don’t make you righteous before God. As you said, ‘it’s the purity of the heart’ in observing and adhering to the Law (of God) that makes you righteous before God. However, It’s also thru the Law that you are guided towards God. Similarly, just believing in the prophets without following what they preached don’t make you righteous before God but it’s the purity of your heart in following the words and teachings of these prophets that make you righteous before God.
                        I beg leave to disagree here the Law is a guide for mankind for sure, it in itself does not lead you to God. Unless of course you keep it perfectly, which you can't. Likewise the prophets were sent to guide mankind, in the case of the Bible to point to the Christ, which is the way to righteousness. Purity of heart before the Lord is a given.

                        So, saying Jesus is the end of the Law, and by just believing this makes you right with God sounds like someone wanted to take the short-cut to the Kingdom of God but that’s not how it works. Everyone is subjected to the Law of God - no one, not even the prophets, including Jesus, is excluded from the Law. If these prophets of God are not excluded from the Law, what makes you think by believing Jesus is the end of the Law makes you excluded from the Law that is, make it right with God ? God said that ?? Jesus himself said that ?? Oh ya, I forgot – you are a Christian, you are a follower of Paul, that explains everything !
                        There are no shortcuts Jerry. You may believe God arbitrarily forgives sins of whom He wills without consideration of His divine justice, then fair enough. For a Christian it's hard work but then I always find things that are harder to achieve in this life - and possibly the next - are worth more.

                        Jesus is recorded as saying in Mark 12:28–31, “‘Which commandment is the most important of all?’ Jesus answered, ‘The most important is, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” The second is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’”

                        It's said that ALL the law and the Prophets hang on these two things. LOVE God without measure and your neighbour. Take a moment to consider the implications of these two seemingly simple commands.

                        Why would you say keeping ALL God’s Law perfectly ALL the time is NOT possible ?? Which God’s Law that you think is impossible to keep ALL the time ?? God gave His Law because we have the capability to keep them perfectly ALL the time. Its only a question of whether you want to develop that capability or not.
                        Then you would be perfect. Only God is perfect.

                        God sent His chosen prophets thru the ages of time to guide us and teach us so that we have that capability to resist temptations and keep ALL His Law perfectly ALL the time. Its only when we forgot about God that keeps us away from keeping ALL God’s Law perfectly ALL the time. Just think of God all the time and trust me, you will have the capability to keep ALL of His Law ALL the time.
                        If that were so Jerry, the prophets were to teach us the ability to attain perfection in regards to keeping the law - perfectly - then they did not do a very good job of it did they? There are none walk this earth without sin. Except for the Christ of course. Have you ever lied Jerry? Stole something? Been jealous or coveted something someone else has? If you can in honesty say you haven't then congratulations you're on the way to being the perfect human.

                        Its only people who do NOT want to develop that capability will justify themselves by making statements like “We all know that's (keeping the Law all the time) not possible”.
                        Give over Jerry. Mankind are sinful, that makes us imperfect by Gods Holy Standard. In our fallen state we fail to measure up to that most Holy Standard. We can strive all we want and indeed it's good to do so BUT we will always fall short. That's why we need the grace of God.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

                          Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                          Read up about the early Christians, they were first known as followers of the way. The first followers were undoubtedly the disciples, all of which bar one were martyred for the Gospel of Jesus Christ they taught. I always had Peter down as the first, seeing it was Peter that kind of founded the "church". If you read Acts leading up to 11:25-26. Some of the disciples are mentioned as teaching the Gospel, seeing as Paul taught the same Gospel - the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then I'm good with that. The term Christian may well have derived from the name Christ., very probably did. The teachings are Jesus' so it makes sense.
                          I think Acts 11:25-26 was quite clear that the disciples who was taught by Paul and Barnabas are the ones who are called ‘Christians’ first and it’s obviously clear that Paul have a greater influence over the existing disciples of Jesus that his teachings have overshadowed that of Jesus’ teachings. Case in point, Jesus never preached original sin, trinity or believing he died and rose again will save you but he preaches only those who submitted to the Will of God will be saved that is, enter the Kingdom of Heaven.


                          Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                          I believe we touched on what is meant by Jesus fulfilling the Law, or Jesus is the culmination of the Law in other posts. So is it worth rehashing? But this sums it up ~ As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God ~
                          Well, perhaps you should elaborate your understanding of Jesus is the end or the culmination of the Law and how does that impact you as a Christian. I may be wrong here, but most of the folks who read that statement have the understanding that by just believing in Jesus (that is, he died for your sin and rose again) then, you are said to have made right with God and you are no longer under the Law because Jesus had fulfilled them for you. Is that a correct understanding ??

                          Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                          I beg leave to disagree here the Law is a guide for mankind for sure, it in itself does not lead you to God. Unless of course you keep it perfectly, which you can't. Likewise the prophets were sent to guide mankind, in the case of the Bible to point to the Christ, which is the way to righteousness. Purity of heart before the Lord is a given.
                          I beg leave to disagree here – The OT does not point to Jesus but the OT points to God and His Righteousness. Its only the NT that points to Jesus and uses the OT verses which are referenced to God to point to Jesus. Jesus is just a servant of God which even his disciples like Peter believed.

                          Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                          There are no shortcuts Jerry. You may believe God arbitrarily forgives sins of whom He wills without consideration of His divine justice, then fair enough. For a Christian it's hard work but then I always find things that are harder to achieve in this life - and possibly the next - are worth more.
                          For a Christian its hard work ?? How hard can it be IF to make right with God, you just have to believe Jesus died and rose again and you are no longer under the Law as Jesus had fulfilled them for you and your sin have been washed by Jesus ?? That’s like saying you don’t have to study for your exams but just believe that the examiners will give you good marks and you will have good marks !!

                          However, you are right about ‘things that are harder to achieve in this life - and possibly the next - are worth more’ and that’s why you find the Muslims’ way to God seems harder to achieve (praying 5 times a day, fasting in the month of Ramadan, women having to dress modestly, etc, etc).

                          Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                          Jesus is recorded as saying in Mark 12:28–31, “‘Which commandment is the most important of all?’ Jesus answered, ‘The most important is, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” The second is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’”
                          It's said that ALL the law and the Prophets hang on these two things. LOVE God without measure and your neighbour. Take a moment to consider the implications of these two seemingly simple commands.
                          There’s a reason why its said that ALL the law and the Prophets hang on these two things – Love for God and Love for thy neighbours. These two actually summed up the whole purpose of your very existence. Love for God is your relationship with God and love for your neighbours is your relationship with your fellow mankind and your responsibility to the community. In other words, you have to keep the Law of God to have a relationship with God and you have to keep the law of the community (respect, moral, etc) to have a good relationship with your fellow mankind, irrespective of colours, race, ethnics and status. Thus, to make right with God, you must maintain good relationship with God AND good relationship with your fellow mankind. If you just maintain good relationship with God and ignore your responsibilities with your fellow mankind, your community then you are NOT making right with God and likewise, if you just maintain good relationship with your fellow mankind and ignore your relationship with God, then, it goes without saying, you are NOT making right with God too.

                          By the way, did you see anything about having to believe that a prophet of God had to die and rose again to make it right with God here ?

                          Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                          Then you would be perfect. Only God is perfect.
                          Sure, only God is in an absolute perfection state. But we are not talking of an absolute perfection here, we are talking about keeping the Law, that is, observing and adhering to the Law all the time to our best human capability. The key word here, is ‘capability’ meaning you have the potential BUT you have to work hard to develop that potential. We are not perfect in the sense that we can fall ill, be infected by diseases, grow old and become senile, etc under which cases, we will not be able to keep ALL the Law at all time but when we are mentally and physically able, wouldn’t you think we should prove our love to God by keeping ALL the Law ALL the time INSTEAD of just making excuses of NOT keeping ALL His Law ALL the time as something impossible to achieve ??

                          Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                          If that were so Jerry, the prophets were to teach us the ability to attain perfection in regards to keeping the law - perfectly - then they did not do a very good job of it did they? There are none walk this earth without sin. Except for the Christ of course. Have you ever lied Jerry? Stole something? Been jealous or coveted something someone else has? If you can in honesty say you haven't then congratulations you're on the way to being the perfect human.
                          Do you always blame your teachers/lecturers or everyone else EXCEPT yourself when you have bad grades or things don’t go your way, Pip ? Probably yes and that’s why I can understand why you would say the prophets did not do a very good job.

                          Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                          Give over Jerry. Mankind are sinful, that makes us imperfect by Gods Holy Standard. In our fallen state we fail to measure up to that most Holy Standard. We can strive all we want and indeed it's good to do so BUT we will always fall short. That's why we need the grace of God.
                          Well, man are not born sinful BUT perfect as in the ‘image of God’ which is obviously perfect in all sense. It’s the upbringing, the society, the company, the environment that we are exposed to and the choices we made that can make us imperfect. We need the grace of God not because we always fall short but rather more because no one can say that he is saved as only God can determine who is saved, NOT the belief that a prophet died and rose again and certainly NOT the belief that a prophet died for the sin of man.

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                            #14
                            Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

                            This conversation is always interesting because it exposes what I believe to be the fundamental flaw of Christianity.

                            I believe it's safe to say that Jesus was a Torah abiding 'Jewish' Prophet. His 'ministry' consisted of affirming himself as the Messiah and acquiring salvation through the love of God , righteous deeds , and keeping the commandments , along with the revelation ( injeel ) Allah granted him.

                            Both the Quran and the Bible agree that Prophets were sent to their own people.

                            This is truly where the whole confusion arises .. Jesus (pbuh) was sent as a Jewish Prophet and his role was not that of a universal Prophethood.

                            All of us agree that Jesus was not successful as per the political expectations of the Jewish Messiah. Surely , this is by Allah's destiny and decree , but nevertheless ..
                            He was not in a position of political leadership , while this is a necessary component in delivering a global message. Rather , his own people attempted to crucify him and his second coming is necessary in order to complete his religious fulfillments.

                            Certain things ..

                            1) Jesus (pbuh) focused on propagating his Prophethood / Messiah to his fellow Jews , which is in accordance with his Prophetic task.

                            The Biblical Jesus was not converting gentiles to Jews and commanding them to keep the Sabbath and moral code. His religious interactions with gentiles was out of necessity and immediate mercy , rather than a religious obligation.

                            2) He did not preach original sin , trinity , abolishing the law , or that salvation comes down to believing that he died on the cross and rose.

                            According to the Bible , the Messiah called to the religion of Moses and the Prophets with an additonal revelation ie The Gospel.

                            3) His religion was not intended for the Gentiles , and that is why this dilemma exists in the first place.

                            Following the Crucifixion' / ascension of Jesus , his direct disciples maintained the offering of Sacrifices for sins , and they lived as Jews , keeping all dietery / moral customs. What separates them from the other Jews was their faith in the Messiah , and that is all.

                            The disciples did not propogate 'Christianity' to the ignorant gentile world. As you would expect , their beliefs and practices were consistent with what we know of the Biblical Jesus.


                            1) If Jesus and his disciples were not on a mission of converting all peoples on earth to their religion , then why would you become a Jew?

                            Jews do not believe that their laws are mandatory for non Jews. Their expectation of faith as it pertains to gentles are Noah's laws. They do however object strongly to any form of idolatry ( and they consider Trinity as such )

                            Here is where the problem lies. Where does the gentile fit? .. I would argue that gentles , in reality , have no place in this context and ultimately , Jesus was not sent to gentile.. Hence , the confusion ..

                            Rather , what is obligatory is following the final Prophet Muhammad (saws) who affirmed his predecessors and was granted the universal law , and revelation.

                            But just to further anaylze through the Christian paradigm ..
                            Paul , the most popular author of books that are within the New Testament brings forth a host of further problems , and is truly the inital culprit as far as Christian theological deviation is concerned.

                            1) Paul appoints himself as the apostle to the gentiles. (Something Jesus himself did not focus upon )

                            2) Paul deviates , innovates and contradicts the theology of Jesus. From alluding to a binitarian form of 'monotheism' ( Eventually became the Trinity ) , hatred for the Law , a new salvation method , original sin , etc.

                            3) The disciples of Jesus had tensions with Paul and this is stated in certain places of his writings.

                            It is extremely important to acknowledge that Paul was not accepted amongst many first century 'Jewish Christians'. Early sects like the Ebionites considered him an apostate. Nazerines also reject him as a deviant and these sects claim to be the true orthodox, and upon the beliefs of the disciples.


                            So what I am curious of , is why should anyone believe in his claim to revelations? ( When in fact those revelations are nothing but deviating from the teachings of Jesus? )

                            I guess the answer is quite simple. "Because it's in the Bible , that's why. "

                            Well why must you accept the book at face value ?

                            - Jesus did not authenticate any of it's writers , which obviously means that he didn't authenticate what they wrote.

                            - The original gospel writers ( and most importantly Paul ) never met Jesus. The gospels are based on other oral traditions circulating around their respective times .. Paul's theology is simply an innovation and a deviation. We are left to simply trust in his claims to revelation.

                            - Various gospels did not enter the New Testament canon. Which means , it is highly possible that relevant information is being neglected.

                            - The most earliest Christians had differences in Theology. From what they considered authorative scripture , specifics of monotheism , the law , etc.

                            Sects like the ebionites would accept only the Gospel of Matthew / Peter , while rejecting all of Paul ( This sect is from within the first century )

                            So why believe the Bible in it's entirety is authoritative ? Can Paul be upon the truth , simply because church fathers assumed his truthfulness?

                            Wa Allahu alam

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

                              Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                              Sects like the ebionites would accept only the Gospel of Matthew / Peter , while rejecting all of Paul ( This sect is from within the first century )
                              Actually it may be a gospel according to James the Just and not Peter ( not 1 Peter , 2 Peter )

                              Allah knows best

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