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"God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Originally posted by hatsoff View Post
    Well then something's not tracking here. In your previous comment you said that it's impossible for God to create people with desires and emotions (i.e., non-robots) but who do not get into violent disagreements. But then you believe that there is such a place---Heaven---where people are not robots, and yet live in harmony.
    Help me here – where did I say “it's impossible for God to create people with desires and emotions (i.e., non-robots) but who do not get into violent disagreements” ??

    Originally posted by hatsoff View Post
    I'm suggesting that God didn't need to create earth or Hell (Jahannam, if you prefer) in order to create Heaven. He didn't need to create the people destined for Hell at all, and he didn't need to put the Heaven-bound people through the wringer here on earth.
    I have responded to you on this in my previous post. Let me ‘cut and paste’ that response here –

    “Your suggestion that ‘God create ONLY the people he wants in Heaven’ in this earth, and thus, do away with punishments would also mean that God should NOT have given man desires, emotions, and the ability to think and the ability to make a choice because it’s desires, emotions and the ability to think and make a choice that creates disagreements, and with disagreements came conflicts and with conflicts came dissatisfactions and revenges and with dissatisfactions and revenges came violence. What you are suggesting is that God creates a world of 'robots' – well, THAT certainly would rule out the need for punishments.”

    Okay, so you added that “God didn't need to create earth or Hell (Jahannam, if you prefer) in order to create Heaven”. Fine, BUT then, why the need to create life at all ??

    Originally posted by hatsoff View Post
    This is a very special case of the evidential problem of evil. In my judgment, no theodicy has ever been successful in countering it. The only plausible defense to the EPE is called skeptical theism. However, skeptical theism has its own problems, and may be susceptible to a kind of pandora's box objection.
    Thank you for the links. I wished you had summarized the key points of those links but I will find the time to read them.

    Anyway, assuming atheists are right that there’s no God, the reality is – problems of evil DO exist. So, in the absence of God, why do these problems of evil still persist when God is out of the equation ??

    Originally posted by hatsoff View Post
    Anyway, I leave you with all these links because I believe I'm going to bow out of our conversation for now. I enjoyed it, so thank you. Perhaps we'll discuss this topic again in another thread, at another time.

    Go ahead and have the last word.
    Well, hate to see you go but I do understand we do have other commitments in our life too.

    And its not about having the last word or about ‘winning or losing’ a dialog/debate, its about expressing your belief in a manner that people can understand. However, if they don’t, it really does not matter too.

    So, thank you too for finding time to engage in a friendly and respectful manner with me. Although I may not agree with you, it does help me to understand atheists better.

    Till then, do take care of yourself and your loved ones.

    Comment


      Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

      Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
      Again, God knowing what would happen does not mean God decided it would happen as God do not make choices or decisions on your behalf – you did that yourself.
      God knows what will happen as a result of our choice, though, and knows that it will happen. God's knowledge exists before our choice. Who decided that would happen then?

      Not really. Man only understood and alleviated “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes AFTER they happened which mean God did not put them there in the first place. If God had put them there in the first place, they would have existed from the beginning of time and man do not have to wait for them ‘to happen’ to study and understand them.
      Eh? “Bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes may not have existed from the beginning of time, but they were certainly there before humans.
      Sure. To each their own beliefs. I got no problems with that.
      ..except these are the beliefs and claims of nearly all Christians and muslims about god, so why ask: "You KNOW what God is supposed to know and yet you don’t believe in a God ?? Is that even possible ??" when I cite them?

      No ‘either’ – as every thing in every realms of existence – things that already have been known and things that have yet to be known or will never be known by man.
      So, does god know everything - including everything that is going to happen through the entire future - or does god not know everything? If god does know everything that is going to happen, how are humans free to do something else?

      Sure, again, I don’t expect you to understand that…or believe that - THAT an All-Knowing God does not necessarily have to make the choice in life for you.
      And, again, taking the example we were using: "If you think god knew and arranged that the student decides to throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon and god knows where the pen will land at a second past the strike of 12 noon and the consequences of that, then god knows and intends the student will throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon." As god already knows the student will throw the pen and what will happen afterwards, how can the student choose whether or not to throw the pen?

      Not really, as you are talking of 2 different ‘realities’. John Wayne, the person, in real life and John Wayne playing a character in a movie. Obviously, John Wayne the person has free will of choice as he can choose to play or not to play the character as required by the director’s scripts. John Wayne, the character in the movie, had to play out the character according to the scripts of the director. I understand what you are trying to highlight here BUT you really cannot make comparison of characterizations in a movie world with the characterizations in the real world. One is a make-believe world while the other is not.
      Except - again - if god knows everything, our behaviour in the real world is even more constricted than the make-believe world. God knows absolutely everything we do. The precise moment we wake, get up, stretch, go and shower... to the exact nanosecond. He knows even which molecules of spin will be sprayed from the skin when we shower. An actor in a play or a film has far more power over the characterisation of the character he plays.

      Yes. You cannot deny that “bad things” do happen whether you believe in God or not. Believers accepted these “bad things” as fate as they believe there’s a reason for these things to happen, which may be for a greater cause. I don’t know how atheists deal with “bad things” – I am sure you don’t really blame God as you don’t believe in a God.
      Do our best to alleviate them, but finally, "Men must endure their going hence even as their coming hither. Ripeness is all."



      I am not sure why anyone would find anything wrong with God’s Creations and Designs. I would think every living things was created and designed for a purpose, may it be for ‘check and balance’ or to maintain the ecosystems balance so that life can go on and on in this earth. Just imagine, generally speaking, if plants are not designed to ‘breathe out’ oxygen, man, who need oxygen, among other things, to live, will not survive long on this planet or if man are not designed to breathe out carbon dioxide, plants will not survive long to ‘give’ oxygen which are crucial for man’s survival. Thus, you can see the wisdom of God in His Creations and Designs.

      But then again, you don’t believe in these things and I don’t expect you to understand it…. or believe it.
      Except that these are singularly unpleasant Creations and Designs. No doubt ways of restricting the number of caterpillars are necessary, but it raises questions about god's tastes if the Creation and Design he uses is wasp larvae which eat caterpillars alive over several months. After all, god can choose otherwise. Do you understand or believe it or simply accept it? Do you begin with the assumptions that god is all-powerful, all-knowing and good and humans have free will and somehow everything must fit into it? If it doesn't look right, that fault is in our perception?

      Fair enough. As I said – to each their own beliefs.
      ...except that those beliefs often involve forcing others to behave "properly".

      That is a perception rather than a reality. I cannot speak for Christianity nor would that be fair for the Christians, but Islam does not force anyone to behave properly. Islam, however, gave guidelines for you to live a balance life in this earth, which includes, proper behavior. As it is, we have laws which punish people who, we can say, do not behave properly as they committed crimes such as thefts, rapes, etc. Do you see these laws as forcing everybody to behave properly too ?? I hope not.
      And what of the laws governing victimless crimes like homosexual activity, fornication, blasphemy, apostasy etc.?
      Not really. The power and effects of belief in God is a direct indication to the belief in the power and the attributes of God – it’s not a different matter but rather understood differently by atheists.
      Even if people believe in the wrong god or gods, who sent false messages?
      Well, sorry to disappoint you BUT I do comprehend that [God did give humans the free will of choice and that’s why He created Heaven and Hell too] perfectly and that's why I am a Muslim. If I don’t comprehend that, I would not have believe it and I would be an atheist like you today.
      Your comprehension seems to be so deep-rooted as to be inexpressible. This isn't a gibe, but you seem to believe that two apparently contradictory things are both so easily true that there's no need to discuss or examine them.

      Comment


        Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        God knows what will happen as a result of our choice, though, and knows that it will happen. God's knowledge exists before our choice. Who decided that would happen then?
        Again - God knowing the eventual choice you will make does not mean He made the choice for you.

        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        Eh? “Bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes may not have existed from the beginning of time, but they were certainly there before humans.
        Sure, they could certainly be there before humans. However, that does not mean God place them there in the first place and THAT’s the point. If God had not put them there in the first place, it probably mean they are mutations from some complex processes, which are more by chance rather than by design, which scientists/biologists are beginning to understand.

        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        ..except these are the beliefs and claims of nearly all Christians and muslims about god, so why ask: "You KNOW what God is supposed to know and yet you don’t believe in a God ?? Is that even possible ??" when I cite them?
        I asked that question BECAUSE you don’t believe in a God and yet claimed you know what God is supposed to know. That’s like someone who claimed he don’t believe in ghosts and yet said he’s afraid of ghosts. Is that even possible like making any sense ??

        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        So, does god know everything - including everything that is going to happen through the entire future - or does god not know everything? If god does know everything that is going to happen, how are humans free to do something else?
        BECAUSE humans have the freedom of choice.

        You are an atheist – was that your own choice or someone force it on you or you feel God has decided that for you ??

        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        And, again, taking the example we were using: "If you think god knew and arranged that the student decides to throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon and god knows where the pen will land at a second past the strike of 12 noon and the consequences of that, then god knows and intends the student will throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon." As god already knows the student will throw the pen and what will happen afterwards, how can the student choose whether or not to throw the pen?
        I think you may be confused between outcomes as predestined by God and the outcomes as a result of the choices made by man. Take the ‘Titanic’ as example. Man have used every known technology available at that time to build a ship which according to them, is literally unsinkable, and yet, it sunk. THAT’s an example of a predestined outcome – that is, despite all ingenuity and every precaution taken, the ship still goes down into the icy sea. You being an atheist is a result of your own choice which you have made based on your understanding of how things tick. THAT’s an example of freedom of choice that God give humans.


        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        Except - again - if god knows everything, our behaviour in the real world is even more constricted than the make-believe world. God knows absolutely everything we do. The precise moment we wake, get up, stretch, go and shower... to the exact nanosecond. He knows even which molecules of spin will be sprayed from the skin when we shower. An actor in a play or a film has far more power over the characterisation of the character he plays.
        Sure, but that does not change the fact that you do have freedom of choice.

        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        Do our best to alleviate them, but finally, "Men must endure their going hence even as their coming hither. Ripeness is all."
        Absolutely, we can only “do our best” as to our own capability.

        That line from Shakespeare’s ‘King Lear’ you quoted simply means death is inevitable so, one must enjoy life and make the most of his life before he died. That, however, does not mean we should go on enjoying life like there’s no tomorrow, pretending that “bad things” never happen – because they do, whether you believe in God or not.

        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        Except that these are singularly unpleasant Creations and Designs. No doubt ways of restricting the number of caterpillars are necessary, but it raises questions about god's tastes if the Creation and Design he uses is wasp larvae which eat caterpillars alive over several months. After all, god can choose otherwise. Do you understand or believe it or simply accept it? Do you begin with the assumptions that god is all-powerful, all-knowing and good and humans have free will and somehow everything must fit into it? If it doesn't look right, that fault is in our perception?
        Well, you don’t believe in the existence of a God. Parasitic wasp larvae eating caterpillars alive is a reality. In the absence of God, why is that happening ??

        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        ...except that those beliefs often involve forcing others to behave "properly".
        As I said, do you see existing laws for crimes such as rape, murder, etc as FORCING people to behave ??

        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        And what of the laws governing victimless crimes like homosexual activity, fornication, blasphemy, apostasy etc.?
        I would say they are more of a sin rather than a crime.

        And what make you believe ‘crimes’ like homosexual activity, fornication, blasphemy, apostasy etc. are victimless ? Take fornication for example, sure, those participating in such acts are between consenting adults, but what if one party was your wife or husband ?? Are you not a victim of your wife’s or husband’s infidelity ??

        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        Even if people believe in the wrong god or gods, who sent false messages?
        It’s NOT a case of people believing in the wrong God, BUT rather, it’s a case of people having different perceptions of the right God. Its like the story of the 6 blind men and an elephant. Its not that they are touching the ‘wrong’ elephant but each of the blind men, touching different parts of the elephant, gave a different perspective view of how an elephant looks like.

        Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
        Your comprehension seems to be so deep-rooted as to be inexpressible. This isn't a gibe, but you seem to believe that two apparently contradictory things are both so easily true that there's no need to discuss or examine them.
        Maybe so – my comprehension seems to be so deep-rooted as to be inexpressible to someone so incomprehensible that he/she became unreachable.

        Comment

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