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"God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

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    #16
    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Originally posted by SILURES View Post
    what about things like famine, disease, cancer? caused generally through nobodys actions or fault yet still kills innocent people?
    Islamically this is also explained silures, I will give you the simple version in my words. Not because of you but my aversion to typing long explanations

    Islamically it is written ad explained that as oppression increases so will disease and what we call natural disasters.

    Even the pollution of the skies and waters will be a result of oppression, oppression here is islamic meaning not Oxford dictionary

    The issue of innocents is a little more complex to explain in words on computer but take the dying of the kids in Africa, it is caused by somebodies actions/oppression and will be seen as murder

    Comment


      #17
      Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

      Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
      Allah swt did

      Allah swt created everything

      Then Allah swt said do X and there will be good do Y and there will be oppression and bad things

      So you do bad things and then say ''why? does Allah swt allow this?''

      Allah swt told you that you bring evil onto yourself with your own hands
      I find this a little confusing. Why would Allah make evil?

      Comment


        #18
        Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

        Originally posted by karkooshy View Post
        God by definition, always acts according to His own will (since it's His own will). So it's impossible for Him to not be good, if good is defined as acting in according to the Will of God.
        .
        I disagree with this. You can argue that a God always does good - but not that whatever a God does, is good. The two things are not synonymous.

        Human sacrifice is not good, whoever asks for it.

        Comment


          #19
          Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

          Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
          Islamically this is also explained silures, I will give you the simple version in my words. Not because of you but my aversion to typing long explanations

          Islamically it is written ad explained that as oppression increases so will disease and what we call natural disasters.

          Even the pollution of the skies and waters will be a result of oppression, oppression here is islamic meaning not Oxford dictionary

          The issue of innocents is a little more complex to explain in words on computer but take the dying of the kids in Africa, it is caused by somebodies actions/oppression and will be seen as murder
          simple is good. just pretend im not very bright and explain it slowly ;)

          so what is oppression islamicaly? and why does it in the case of a flood or famine for instance hurt the most vulnerable people in that area, the poor for instance?

          also why punish them if its due to someone elses actions? why doesnt god punish them alone?

          There are two kinds of pride, both good and bad. 'Good pride' represents our dignity and self-respect. 'Bad pride' is the deadly sin of superiority that reeks of conceit and arrogance.


          Comment


            #20
            Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

            Originally posted by SILURES View Post
            simple is good. just pretend im not very bright and explain it slowly ;)

            so what is oppression islamicaly? and why does it in the case of a flood or famine for instance hurt the most vulnerable people in that area, the poor for instance?

            also why punish them if its due to someone elses actions? why doesnt god punish them alone?
            Oppression in Islam encompasses a lot, from a father who wont marry his daughter to a pious suitor due to racism to implementing other than shariah to interest to not giving in charity etc

            there is quranic verses and hadith to suggest there will befall calamity after calamity when oppression is widespread and the notion of ''innocent'' is wider than people being seen as good. SO when we have the story of the order to destroy a town but the angel of death said there are pious people there who are in 24 hour worship the order was to start with them as they had simply isolated themselves and were not teaching or preaching

            I guess the notion of innocence has to be defined too islamically and also teh notion that someone killed is hard done by. To be shaheed is to be placed in the higher portions of heaven/jannah and so drowning for example is a form of martyrdom/shaheed too

            Its also a mindset and understanding. A person dying may seem like a waste of life to you and me but they may be targetted to be kept ''safe''

            Comment


              #21
              Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

              Assalum alaikum

              If one is to rely on Western rationalism to argue for the existence, or otherwise, of God, then one will bound to be disappointed. There is a lengthy and illustrative history of such attempts which have not obviously arrived at any definitive conclusion .. otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

              We are simply on board the wrong vessel. We are using the mind. What we should be using is the heart. When we transfer the question to the heart we might find a different response. The problem is, of course, that most of us are taught that the heart cannot think .. think again. The heart very much has a brain of its own. For those who doubt such claim I might suggest a search of the relative material that exists of the web.

              The other problem is that most of us feed our heart with the same junk diet as we feed our brain. Garbage in garbage out as they say. So that means turning off the TV and focusing on those things which have been given to us to edify our lives.

              What does all this mean? It means we cannot win any faux philosophical argument however hard we try. So don't even begin. Second, it means we live our life following the Prophet (swt) only then will others see that we have something that goes beyond argument and conjecture.

              So, don't get sucked into the world, concentrate on the important stuff. Atheists will come and go .. that is a matter for Allah not necessarily us.
              Free-will if good for him who is master of himself (Rumi)

              Comment


                #22
                Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

                Originally posted by karkooshy View Post
                Just to answer both quotations: Yes, we believe Allah ﷻ is Creator of everything, good and evil. And this is documented in the Quran (and in some of the most widely memorized surahs too). One of the several examples that can be cited:

                قُلْ أَعُوذُ بِرَبِّ ٱلْفَلَقِ * مِن شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ

                Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak. From the evil of that which He created. (Quran 113: 1-2)
                your answer is correct for a theist only, if an athiest accepts this answer then he/she is no more an athiest because he/she is believing what Quran says i.e. accepting words of God.
                my example is meant for atheist person in specific.


                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

                  Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                  in which case, you can indeed contradict the atheist argument you mentioned - but not for the reason you think. When an atheist asks that question, he is posing the problem of evil ie if God is good, why is there evil in the world? But you accept that Allah created evil so for Islam, that's not the issue.
                  The verse that Karkooshy quoted says: "From the evil of that which He has created".

                  There is a difference between saying God has created evil and saying that what God has created contains evil.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

                    Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                    I find this a little confusing. Why would Allah make evil?
                    It's not hard to understand. God is Absolute Good. It follows that only God is absolutely Good, since it is impossible to have two absolutes. The world is not God. So it is not absolutely good, and it contains evils.

                    Creation implies a separation from the Creator. The Creator is absolutely Good. Separation/distance from the absolute Good implies the lack of good, which we call evil.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

                      Originally posted by SILURES View Post
                      simple is good. just pretend im not very bright and explain it slowly ;)

                      so what is oppression islamicaly? and why does it in the case of a flood or famine for instance hurt the most vulnerable people in that area, the poor for instance?

                      also why punish them if its due to someone elses actions? why doesnt god punish them alone?
                      Floods and earthquakes are sometimes very advantageous for the environment; and it is a very great blessing that people die. Think how uglier this planet would be if all of the people that have lived throughout history were still alive.

                      Calamities (poverty, famine, etc) are also good because they remind us of the reality of death and the fact that life on this earth is impermanent. What is really evil is forgetting God.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

                        Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                        I find this a little confusing. Why would Allah make evil?
                        I find it a little disappointing that you’d raise this objection in the first place, when the whole purpose of this post was to highlight how meaningless it is.

                        Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                        I disagree with this. You can argue that a God always does good - but not that whatever a God does, is good. The two things are not synonymous.

                        Human sacrifice is not good, whoever asks for it.
                        I’m not sure how I’m supposed to respond to this. You tell me you disagree, but you don’t explain why. I realize that “God always does good” is not synonymous with “whatever God does, is good”, but given the definition for “good” given above, I don’t see how I cannot argue for the latter?

                        Originally posted by wayseer View Post
                        Assalum alaikum

                        If one is to rely on Western rationalism to argue for the existence, or otherwise, of God, then one will bound to be disappointed. There is a lengthy and illustrative history of such attempts which have not obviously arrived at any definitive conclusion .. otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

                        We are simply on board the wrong vessel. We are using the mind. What we should be using is the heart. When we transfer the question to the heart we might find a different response. The problem is, of course, that most of us are taught that the heart cannot think .. think again. The heart very much has a brain of its own. For those who doubt such claim I might suggest a search of the relative material that exists of the web.

                        The other problem is that most of us feed our heart with the same junk diet as we feed our brain. Garbage in garbage out as they say. So that means turning off the TV and focusing on those things which have been given to us to edify our lives.

                        What does all this mean? It means we cannot win any faux philosophical argument however hard we try. So don't even begin. Second, it means we live our life following the Prophet (swt) only then will others see that we have something that goes beyond argument and conjecture.

                        So, don't get sucked into the world, concentrate on the important stuff. Atheists will come and go .. that is a matter for Allah not necessarily us.
                        و عليكم السلام
                        I think there’s been a slight misunderstanding. This is not an argument to prove the existence of God, it doesn’t argue for this at all. It’s a counter-argument to a common atheist objection.

                        Although I still do not agree with you when you imply there is no rational basis for belief in God. I certainly do not believe such an approach is in line with the Quranic injunction for us to think, reason, and argue for our case in the best manner. I also disagree that historically, Muslims have failed to arrive at definitive conclusions in providing a rational basis for our beliefs. In fact nearly all of the objections raised today, can be easily answered by referring back to arguments utilized by classical thinkers and scholars.

                        With that said, I agree with you that you do not necessarily need to have a rational basis for your beliefs in order to maintain them. Though in that case, one must realize that a discussion about their beliefs cannot happen, since it would essentially boil down to a conversation about unverifiable, subjective experiences.

                        Originally posted by Theistic View Post
                        your answer is correct for a theist only, if an athiest accepts this answer then he/she is no more an athiest because he/she is believing what Quran says i.e. accepting words of God.
                        my example is meant for atheist person in specific.
                        I can appreciate that. Although to clarify, the atheist who raises the objection I’ve attempted to answer is employing what is known as a Proof by Contradiction. This is where a claimant assumes that what he’s trying to prove is false, while showing that such an assumption results in a contradiction, concluding that it is more reasonable to believe that the proposition is true.

                        In the case of the atheist, they want to prove that the proposition “God does not exist” is true. So they assume it to be false (i.e. “God does exist”) in order to show that this leads to a contradiction (e.g. “How can God exist if suffering also exists?”). So the atheist utilizing such a proof method is already presuming God exists.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

                          Originally posted by karkooshy View Post

                          I can appreciate that. Although to clarify, the atheist who raises the objection I’ve attempted to answer is employing what is known as a Proof by Contradiction. This is where a claimant assumes that what he’s trying to prove is false, while showing that such an assumption results in a contradiction, concluding that it is more reasonable to believe that the proposition is true.

                          In the case of the atheist, they want to prove that the proposition “God does not exist” is true. So they assume it to be false (i.e. “God does exist”) in order to show that this leads to a contradiction (e.g. “How can God exist if suffering also exists?”). So the atheist utilizing such a proof method is already presuming God exists.
                          we know that any proposition may be right or wrong, proving one proposition over another doesn't change the fact. Knowing & believing the fact is another thing & winning the arguement another thing.

                          so, for an athiest you need to prove the importance of realizing the fact, which i tried to explain in example of light & darkness...


                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

                            I find from what I read.. That they are more or less, assuming God's will. We do not know God's will.

                            It is as if they try to say "How can God do x? What possible reason could God have for y to happen?" Ie. Problem is, God does not have to conform to our understanding, or our want.

                            It is simple. God created evil, willed evil to exist, and decreed it to exist. But the evils that happen on earth, is the consequences of mankind's actions, to which mankind will be responsible for.

                            Why did God want it to exist? God does as He wills. Without Darkness, Light would be meaningless, or at least we couldn't understand it, and complain anyway.

                            Without bad deeds, there would be no test,and thus complain. Without good deeds, we would complain. If God was to put us in Jannah, all of us, we'd question 'why?' cause we wouldn't know what 'bad' feels like, and thus wouldn't recognize 'good'. Similarily, if God was to put all of us in Hell, we'd say "why?"

                            Bad and good compliments eachother. Without either, you can not distinguish between good and bad.

                            It is like saying "Why did God create me?" God does what He wants, we are in no position to question why He SWT does things.

                            This stems from emotions and not reasons. There are plenty logical arguments, such as "For something to have been put into existence, must have a cause"

                            Everything that has a beginning, has a cause.

                            IF you were to ask me "Who made this glass" and I said "none" your brain would think "Nonsense, it must have come from someone!" and thus deny that answer.

                            It is simple, anything that has come to existence, must have had a cause to its beginning.
                            Last edited by Serinity; 05-03-16, 01:14 PM.
                            La ilaha illallahu, wahdahu la sharika lahu, lahul-mulku wa lahul-hamdu, wa Huwa 'ala kulli sha'in Qadir
                            (there is no true god except Allah. He is One and He has no partner with Him; His is the sovereignty and His is the praise, and He is Omnipotent),'
                            Do not say about Allah but Truth.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

                              Originally posted by wayseer View Post
                              Assalum alaikum

                              If one is to rely on Western rationalism to argue for the existence, or otherwise, of God, then one will bound to be disappointed. There is a lengthy and illustrative history of such attempts which have not obviously arrived at any definitive conclusion .. otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

                              We are simply on board the wrong vessel. We are using the mind. What we should be using is the heart. When we transfer the question to the heart we might find a different response. The problem is, of course, that most of us are taught that the heart cannot think .. think again. The heart very much has a brain of its own. For those who doubt such claim I might suggest a search of the relative material that exists of the web.

                              The other problem is that most of us feed our heart with the same junk diet as we feed our brain. Garbage in garbage out as they say. So that means turning off the TV and focusing on those things which have been given to us to edify our lives.

                              What does all this mean? It means we cannot win any faux philosophical argument however hard we try. So don't even begin. Second, it means we live our life following the Prophet (swt) only then will others see that we have something that goes beyond argument and conjecture.

                              So, don't get sucked into the world, concentrate on the important stuff. Atheists will come and go .. that is a matter for Allah not necessarily us.
                              This.

                              There are things, by which, if I was to question with my brain I would not understand, but if I let my heart understand, I would understand.
                              La ilaha illallahu, wahdahu la sharika lahu, lahul-mulku wa lahul-hamdu, wa Huwa 'ala kulli sha'in Qadir
                              (there is no true god except Allah. He is One and He has no partner with Him; His is the sovereignty and His is the praise, and He is Omnipotent),'
                              Do not say about Allah but Truth.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

                                Originally posted by karkooshy View Post
                                I’m not sure how I’m supposed to respond to this. You tell me you disagree, but you don’t explain why. I realize that “God always does good” is not synonymous with “whatever God does, is good”, but given the definition for “good” given above, I don’t see how I cannot argue for the latter?
                                .
                                To say that the definition of good is 'whatever God does' is dangerous. You are opening up the door to immorality.

                                Why? Because you are giving permission to people to do bad things in the name of God. They might say, it's ok to wipe out this society, because we think they are devil worshipers and God says we ought to destroy this kind of people.

                                You're teaching them to override their natural morality. You're redefining good - and not in a 'good' way.

                                Comment

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