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Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

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    #31
    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
    What exactly is the problem? I have realised when someone is confused or loses the debate they start degrading the other person and mocking them
    There is a difference of opinion on alot of what you have said
    You are the person who could not even comprehend mod Ali's explanation of Imam Shafis view on the spy and his status as Muslim or kaffir. You are ignorant yourself and who can help you if you refuse to listen? The one who us confused and has lost is you.

    Pointing out someones ignorance (like yours) is not wrong. Yes it signals the end of the debate, not because others are confused and have lost but because you are too ignorant and deaf to comprehend the issues at hand. Islam is not a free for all with every jahil having the right to discuss fiqh.

    Everything I said about the fraud Abu Najm ibn al Iskander is true.

    And you are the one confused and lost-anyone seeing how you actually responded to the moderater Ali who cited Imam as Shafi can see that.
    Last edited by islammission; 14-10-15, 03:53 PM.

    Comment


      #32
      Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

      Originally posted by islammission View Post
      You are the person who could not even comprehend mod Ali's explanation of Imam Shafis view on the spy and his status as Muslim or kaffir. You are ignorant yourself and who can help you if you refuse to listen? The one who us confused and has lost is you.

      Pointing out someones ignorance (like yours) is not wrong. Yes it signals the end of the debate, not because others are confused and have lost but because you are too ignorant and deaf to comprehend the issues at hand. Islam is not a free for all with every jahil having the right to discuss fiqh.

      Everything I said about the fraud Abu Najm ibn al Iskander is true.

      And you are the one confused and lost-anyone seeing how you actually responded to the moderater Ali who cited Imam as Shafi can see that.
      What sort of reply is this?

      He stopped debating because he himself knew there might be ikhtilaaf (or in fact that his opinion was weak), why don't you ask him?
      I am actually following clear proofs, I am not confused at all, we can re discuss that topic if you wish, even though I proved you all wrong, or will you run away again? The thread is still there for us all to see

      And ye I guess them 10s if scholars I take from today who see Aiding Kuffar against Muslims are also all jahil who say what I say, who say the same about spying aswell
      Last edited by abufulaans; 14-10-15, 06:04 PM.
      ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

      Comment


        #33
        Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

        kill the polytheists that want to fight your Islam and with their ignorance, defend your self from them?
        problem is its not easy to understand the Quranic language, you need to analyse things in so many ways, so many will understand things in good way/ bad way/ weird way etc.

        evverything in quran is written in my point of view in the most accurate and fair way, you just need to understand what's the purpose behind it.
        My cooking Youtube channel:
        https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvc...UgRZfc4r8YJ0iQ

        Don't abuse your body just to feel good, use your body right and you'll feel better - Sparty

        Comment


          #34
          Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

          Originally posted by talibilm09 View Post
          bumped because the writer of the post does not remeber where did he wrote to kill all the polytheisers
          No reason to 'bump' the thread. Allah says in the Quran to kill all polytheists 9:5-

          {And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.}

          Islammission is on my ignore list so I can't see his nonsense to respond. Glad to see you've found another disrespectful, ignorant ally on this forum. You two make a good couple.

          Now you're on my ignore list.

          Comment


            #35
            Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

            Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
            No reason to 'bump' the thread. Allah says in the Quran to kill all polytheists 9:5-

            {And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.}

            Islammission is on my ignore list so I can't see his nonsense to respond. Glad to see you've found another disrespectful, ignorant ally on this forum. You two make a good couple.

            Now you're on my ignore list.
            and you pretend as if the verse 9.6 does not exist?
            Be careful who you call Kafir because only Allah knows who is truly a rejector and who is merely a misguided person. It is not up to us to "sentence" a person to the Hellfire.

            The Questions you Questioned will be Questioned in the day of judgement

            Comment


              #36
              Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

              Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
              What sort of reply is this?

              He stopped debating because he himself knew there might be ikhtilaaf (or in fact that his opinion was weak), why don't you ask him?
              I am actually following clear proofs, I am not confused at all, we can re discuss that topic if you wish, even though I proved you all wrong, or will you run away again? The thread is still there for us all to see

              And ye I guess them 10s if scholars I take from today who see Aiding Kuffar against Muslims are also all jahil who say what I say, who say the same about spying aswell
              I take Imam Shafi over any of the "scholars" you follow even if they fill the earth let alone are in tens. There is no point discussing as I already said since you refuse to accept whay is obvious-the Salaf did not have the same view as your Salafi scholars did on this issue of takfir and spying, and there is no evidence they did. You are worse than confused-mislead since you take the wrong interpretation of clear proofs which are against you.
              Last edited by islammission; 15-10-15, 05:17 PM.

              Comment


                #37
                Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

                Originally posted by Hate Racism View Post
                and you pretend as if the verse 9.6 does not exist?
                Ignore him, he just got totally exposed and can do nothing but hypocritically criticize our words while he has demonstrated the most despicable behavior. Often times the people criticizing bad words and character are the worst at it themselves! You got lucky this fraudulent jahil with a history of trolling on forums ignored you. He only puffs himself up and shows his "knowledge" he knows nothing. Other actual students of knowledge actually banned him since he was such a waste of time, a total troll with no respect for the Shariah and a fraud.
                Last edited by islammission; 15-10-15, 05:21 PM.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

                  Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
                  No reason to 'bump' the thread. Allah says in the Quran to kill all polytheists 9:5-

                  {And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.}

                  Islammission is on my ignore list so I can't see his nonsense to respond. Glad to see you've found another disrespectful, ignorant ally on this forum. You two make a good couple.

                  Now you're on my ignore list.
                  Glad I am on your ignore list you ignorant liar.


                  Now lets bump it up. Again and again. I don't mind repeatedly exposing you everywhere you are-you have a history, a long one of playing the student of knowledge, behaving despicably when anyone calls you out on your incomptence, ignorance, despicable character and flat out lack of respect for the Shariah.


                  I still remember the reading this fellow stupidly conflating migrant workers in the peninsula and slaves in Sharia. May Allah save the ummah from hypocritical frauds like yourself Abu Najm ibn Al Iskander.
                  Last edited by islammission; 15-10-15, 05:31 PM.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

                    If anyone would like to see this arrogant fool not only demonstrate breathtaking ignorance in fiqh(and pathetic mistakes in Arabic) but also shockingly despicable character, check out the threads on Islamic Awakening forum. He is ibn al Iskander there. Once he was exposed there as a jahil he trolled until he was banned and now he is on this forum. He also trolled on Multaqa

                    Thankfully his ridiculous comments have not been deleted there and should be available for everyone to see.

                    Anyone who values his deen and believes in Allah and the Last Day should either ignore this man or face the whatever will happen to those who give ear to the ignorant. You are not just accountable for what you say but what you listen to.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

                      Originally posted by islammission View Post
                      I take Imam Shafi over any of the "scholars" you follow even if they fill the earth let alone are in tens. There is no point discussing as I already said since you refuse to accept whay is obvious-the Salaf did not have the same view as your Salafi scholars did on this issue of takfir and spying, and there is no evidence they did. You are worse than confused-mislead since you take the wrong interpretation of clear proofs which are against you.
                      Im ready to discuss the topic again and i am only more sure now that what I said is correct
                      The thread is still there, you can carry on with these degrading comments of 'your confused,your misled', or you can discuss the topic, your choice.....
                      ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

                        FROM THE SCHOLAR & AUTHOR OF THE TAFSIR TAFHEEM UL QURAN .

                        ''It seems as if the Verse of the Sword became a “sword” that would cut the heads of verses, leaving them lifeless and so their wordings would be recited yet with no meanings !


                        The Verse of the Sword: Which One?


                        Ironically enough, they ( Talibilms words: Scholars not Sahabas ) have differed as to which verse is the Verse of the Sword which is claimed to have abrogated those numerous verses of the Qur’an. However, they all agree that it is a verse from the Chapter of At-Tawbah. [Namely, it is one of the following verses:]

                        1) “Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them…” (At-Tawbah: 5)

                        2)“… and wage war on all the idolaters as they are waging war on all of you…” (At-Tawbah: 36)

                        3)“Go forth, light (armed) and heavy (armed), and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah...” (At-Tawbah: 41)

                        4)“Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.” (At-Tawbah: 29) ''



                        But before its decided which verse it is and how abrogation could be effective lets take into account and keep in mind some of these verses of the Noble Quran and Hadith

                        “… a Scripture the revelations whereof are perfected and then expounded. (It cometh) from One Wise, Informed.” (Hud: 1)

                        and “Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise.” (Fussilat: 42)

                        “And in whatsoever ye differ, the verdict therein belongeth to Allah…” (Ash-Shura: 10) ''

                        So you can read more from this scholar on this issue http://www.onislam.net/english/shari...the-sword.html



                        HADITHS TO KEEP IN MIND BEFORE DECIDING THE AUTHENTICATION OF ANY IMPORTANT MATTER IN ISLAM

                        PROPHET :saw: GUARANTEED ONLY UNTILL TABE'IEN.

                        Sayyidina lmran ibn Husayn (RA) reported that Allah’s Messenger said, The best of my ummah is the generation to which 1 have been sent, then they who will follow them.’ The narrator said, ‘And I do not remember if he mentioned the third (generation) or not, “After that’, the Prophet (SAW) said, “A people will come who will voluntarily give testimony, they will commit treachery and will not be trustworthy. They will be corpulent, generally. [Bukhari 2651]


                        ASTRAY SCHOLARS
                        Al Tirmidhi (no.2229) and others record the following hadith:
                        abu Dhar said, "I was with the Prophet (SAW) one day and I heard him saing: "There is something I fear for my Ummah than the Dajjal." It was then that I became afraid, so I said: " Oh Rasool Allah! Which thing is that?" He (SAW) said; "Misguided and astray scholars''


                        VIEWS OF MADHABI IMAAMS AND SCHOLARS

                        Imam Ahmad bin Hambal reportedly used to say that anyone claiming ijma' (after the age of suhaba) is a liar.(40)

                        In his Itiqan [Perfection], the prominent scholar, As-Suyuti, quoted Ibn Al-Hasar’s saying: “Abrogation is identified through an explicit transmission either from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) or from a Companion [Sahabi] where he said that a certain verse abrogated another certain verse.”He also said, “Abrogation is not to be established on the basis of a statement of an Exegete nor on personal reasoning [ijtihad] as long as there is no authentic transmission or clear contradiction. This is because abrogation includes the removal of a [shar`i] ruling and the establishment of [another] ruling, [and this should have been] confirmed during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). This [confirmation] is to be authenticated through transmission and history, not through personal reasoning and opinions.”[8]


                        The above reminders Prove if you want to speak about such VERY IMPORTANT matters about the Noble Quran and its verses abrogating never speak WITHOUT SOLID & EXPLICIT proofs except from the Sahih Hadiths AND Statements of renowned Sahabas or inferd from their actions or from Tabeien, at the least to its validity with proofs from Prophet and his Sahabas.

                        .

                        PROOFS MUST BE AS CLEAR CUT & EXPLICIT LIKE THE FOLLOWING HADITH ABOUT ABROGATION

                        Narrated salama: When the Divine Revelation: "For those who can fast, they had a choice either fast, or feed a poor for every day," (2.184) was revealed, it was permissible for one to give a ransom and give up fasting, till the Verse succeeding it was revealed and abrogated it. ( bukari Book #60 , Hadith #34)

                        Note :o know ''Abrogation '' though a wrong translation or term and how does it work and the purpose behind have agood read here http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-Contradicting


                        As per the above hadith by Mother of Believers, Salama (ra) IF THE succeeding verse CAN ABROGATE THE PREVIOUS verse IMPLIES succeeding verse of tauba 9:6 ( escort the polytheisers to safety ) will abrogate the previous verse of 9:5 (Kill the polytheisers) which will not make sense When they are just next to next. Since once they are killed , How are we going to escort them ? Don't we know that Allah swt says the Noble Quran is from him and without contradictions !!! ? so We have to understand the CONTEXT of why and when such verses are revealed and how they were implemented by the Prophet and his companions.

                        And the Context is very visible in the first 14 verses of the Sura tauba http://legacy.quran.com/9/1-14 and this thread
                        http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...rse-9-5-say-So

                        9:13 ''Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

                        and also verse 9:4 and 9:7 specifies in which CONTEXT such verses were told and the most basic is being the Prohibition of polytheists pilgrimage to the Kaaba who also did it nude with whistling and clapping was their worship ( 8:35 ). lets see them

                        9:4 ''Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

                        9:7 ''.....................................So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].''

                        9: 28 ''O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year............''

                        9:29.'' Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.



                        NOTE : It can't be denied those who strive in the path of Allah with wealth and their lives are the best but doing it without proper guidance of the noble Quran and hadith and sunnah may earn Sins than virtues so in the worst scenario a Polytheist who did not attack Islam or kill muslims cannot be executed but only can be expelled , rather escorted out of the Arabian Peninsula, at the most.. This is the reason why 14 million kafirs are still living in ME who are the citizens and affordable among them are paying Jizzya while the largest country in the ME, Saudi's Muslim citizens population is only 29 million.
                        Last edited by talibilm09; 18-10-15, 04:52 PM.
                        My sect - No Sect

                        My Aqeedah - http://legacy.quran.com/112 ( The Aqeedah of Sahabas)

                        Just a Muslim

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

                          We must know fanatics try to twist this verse of Noble Quran 9:5 to suit their agenda not only by trying to prove through statements of Scholars after 5-600 years after tabieen or the second generation after Prophet which does not carry authenticity according to the hadith mentioned in the above post but also modify, hijack them against those Imaam themselves (post # 8 here ) which is proved as lies by those Imaams statements below


                          Many scholars say that Quran 9:5 it self is abrogated .Imam al-Qurtubi mentions that al-Dahhak, ‘Ata’, and others are of the opinion that the above-mentioned verse (Qur’an 47:4) abrogates the “Verse of the Sword.” Al-Thawri relates from Juwaybir, that al-Dahhak said, “Slay the polytheists wherever you find them… (9:5)” is abrogated by the verse, “Then set them free or ransom them….(47:4).”And of course these verses were in the context of battle with the Pagans who attacked the Muslims 1st (Quran 9:13).



                          The claim that the “Verse of the Sword” abrogates other verses that encourage peace and tolerance is challenged by many exegetes. For example, among the verses it is claimed are abrogated by the Verse of the Sword, is the following, “If they [your enemies] incline towards peace then you should likewise incline and place your trust in Allah. Surely, He hears and knows all” (Qur’an 8:61). Imam Qurtubi engages in a lengthy discussion of why this verse is not abrogated. In the context of his discussion, he mentions that this verse is the basis for Muslims entering into a treaty of peace with non-Muslims that can extend indefinitely.

                          Imam Tabari similarly rejects the idea that this verse is abrogated. He mentions, “As for those who repeat what Qatada and others mention concerning the abrogation of this verse [by the Verse of the Sword]it is a baseless statement unsubstantiated by the Qur’an, the Sunna (prophetic tradition), or sound intellect.” Ibn Kathir, after mentioning the opinion that this verse is abrogated specifically rejects that idea. He states, “There is no contradiction (tanafi), abrogation (naskh) or specification(takhsis) [in this verse].”

                          In fact concerning 9:5 which they claim Ibn kathir says abrogates 2:256, we read that Ibn kathir merely gives THE OPINION of a person by the name of Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim who said, “It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.”Notice this opinion is not traced back to Allah or the Messenger, which is why the claims of fanatics are baseless but Ad -Dahnak's narrations of Ibn abbas and Abu hurayrah through him are rejected http://islamicencyclopedia.org/publi...cDetail/id/249


                          NOTE: When our stance as per the above post of # 41 is that there can be no abrogation of ANY Noble Quran verse without CLEAR CUT HADITH AND ENDORSEMENT BY ACTIONS OF PROPHET OR HIS COMPANIONS so this post was just to prove how fanatics make proofs just to support their ideas inpost # 8 which is baseless in Shariah and these statements of later Scholars (600 years later ) are only secondary when the Noble Quran is clear, Prophets Hadiths and actions are clear and the actions of companions are also clearly inclined towards peace and fairness and also proved by the rightly guided Caliphs and heros of Islam like Hafiz Saluhudeen Al Ayyubi.(May Allah shower his mercy on him.)
                          Last edited by talibilm09; 19-10-15, 02:23 PM.
                          My sect - No Sect

                          My Aqeedah - http://legacy.quran.com/112 ( The Aqeedah of Sahabas)

                          Just a Muslim

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

                            Originally posted by talibilm09 View Post
                            We must know fanatics try to twist this verse of Noble Quran 9:5 to suit their agenda not only by trying to prove through statements of Scholars after 5-600 years after tabieen or the second generation after Prophet which does not carry authenticity according to the hadith mentioned in the above post but also modify, hijack them against those Imaam themselves (post # 8 here ) which is proved as lies by those Imaams statements below


                            Many scholars say that Quran 9:5 it self is abrogated .Imam al-Qurtubi mentions that al-Dahhak, ‘Ata’, and others are of the opinion that the above-mentioned verse (Qur’an 47:4) abrogates the “Verse of the Sword.” Al-Thawri relates from Juwaybir, that al-Dahhak said, “Slay the polytheists wherever you find them… (9:5)” is abrogated by the verse, “Then set them free or ransom them….(47:4).”And of course these verses were in the context of battle with the Pagans who attacked the Muslims 1st (Quran 9:13).



                            The claim that the “Verse of the Sword” abrogates other verses that encourage peace and tolerance is challenged by many exegetes. For example, among the verses it is claimed are abrogated by the Verse of the Sword, is the following, “If they [your enemies] incline towards peace then you should likewise incline and place your trust in Allah. Surely, He hears and knows all” (Qur’an 8:61). Imam Qurtubi engages in a lengthy discussion of why this verse is not abrogated. In the context of his discussion, he mentions that this verse is the basis for Muslims entering into a treaty of peace with non-Muslims that can extend indefinitely.

                            Imam Tabari similarly rejects the idea that this verse is abrogated. He mentions, “As for those who repeat what Qatada and others mention concerning the abrogation of this verse [by the Verse of the Sword]it is a baseless statement unsubstantiated by the Qur’an, the Sunna (prophetic tradition), or sound intellect.” Ibn Kathir, after mentioning the opinion that this verse is abrogated specifically rejects that idea. He states, “There is no contradiction (tanafi), abrogation (naskh) or specification(takhsis) [in this verse].”

                            In fact concerning 9:5 which they claim Ibn kathir says abrogates 2:256, we read that Ibn kathir merely gives THE OPINION of a person by the name of Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim who said, “It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.”Notice this opinion is not traced back to Allah or the Messenger, which is why the claims of fanatics are baseless but Ad -Dahnak's narrations of Ibn abbas and Abu hurayrah through him are rejected http://islamicencyclopedia.org/publi...cDetail/id/249


                            NOTE: When our stance as per the above post of # 41 is that there can be no abrogation of ANY Noble Quran verse without CLEAR CUT HADITH AND ENDORSEMENT BY ACTIONS OF PROPHET OR HIS COMPANIONS so this post was just to prove how fanatics make proofs just to support their ideas inpost # 8 which is baseless in Shariah and these statements of later Scholars (600 years later ) are only secondary when the Noble Quran is clear, Prophets Hadiths and actions are clear and the actions of companions are also clearly inclined towards peace and fairness and also proved by the rightly guided Caliphs and heros of Islam like Hafiz Saluhudeen Al Ayyubi.(May Allah shower his mercy on him.)

                            السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

                            I want to discuss this properly, let us forget about what happened in the past
                            I have bolded the part I am reffering to
                            Now here is the full quote from tafseer Ibn Kathir


                            يقول تعالى إذا خفت من قوم خيانة فانبذ إليهم عهدهم على سواء فإن استمروا على حربك ومنابذتك فقاتلهم "وإن جنحوا" أي مالوا "للسلم" أي المسالمة والمصالحة والمهادنة "فاجنح لها" أي فمل إليها واقبل منهم ذلك ولهذا لما طلب المشركون عام الحديبية الصلح ووضع الحرب بينهم وبين رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم تسع سنين أجابهم إلى ذلك مع ما اشترطوا من الشروط الأخر. وقال عبدالله بن الإمام أحمد حدثنا محمد بن أبي بكر المقدمي حدثني فضيل بن سليمان يعني النميري حدثنا محمد بن أبي يحيى عن إياس بن عمرو الأسلمي عن علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم "إنه سيكون اختلاف أو أمر فإن استطعت أن يكون السلم فافعل" وقال لمجاهد نزلت في بني قريظة وهذا فيه نظر لأن السياق كله في وقعة بدر وذكرها مكتنف لهذا كله وقال ابن عباس ومجاهد وزيد بن أسلم وعطاء الخراساني وعكرمة والحسن وقتادة: إن هذه الآية منسوخة بآية السيف في براءة "قاتلوا الذين لا يؤمنون بالله ولا باليوم الآخر" الآية. وفيه نظر أيضا لأن آية براءة فيها الأمر بقتالهم إذا أمكن ذلك فأما إن كان العدو كثيفا فإنه يجوز مهادنتهم كما دلت عليه هذه الآية الكريمة وكما فعل النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يوم الحديبية فلا منافاة ولا نسخ ولا تخصيص والله أعلم. وقوله "وتوكل على الله" أي صالحهم وتوكل على الله فإن الله كافيك وناصرك.



                            Now the Ibn Kathir does not go on to say as you wrote that he rejects this idea, rather he says
                            ''Ibn Abbas and mujahid [and more] said that this Ayah is abrogated by the verse of the sword in Surah bara'ah [al tawbah] ''Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the last day...'' In it is a view aswell as the verse of bara'ah has the command of fighting when it is possible, but when the enemy is great then it is permissible to make a truce with them as this Ayah noble Ayah shows and as the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم did on the day of hudaybiyyah, so there is no contradiction, and no abrogation and no specification and Allah knows best''

                            So Ibn Kathir took the opinion that the verse is not abrogated because it depends on the situation and if it is possible to fight, so if it possible to fight then Muslims fight, if not then Muslims can make a peace treaty as done on the day of hudaybiyyah when the enemy was equally powerful and wanted a peace treaty

                            And this seems to be the correct opinion, this way both Ayaat can be put together and there is no actual abrogation
                            Last edited by abufulaans; 20-10-15, 05:31 PM.
                            ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

                              Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
                              السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

                              I want to discuss this properly, let us forget about what happened in the past
                              I have bolded the part I am reffering to
                              Now here is the full quote from tafseer Ibn Kathir


                              يقول تعالى إذا خفت من قوم خيانة فانبذ إليهم عهدهم على سواء فإن استمروا على حربك ومنابذتك فقاتلهم "وإن جنحوا" أي مالوا "للسلم" أي المسالمة والمصالحة والمهادنة "فاجنح لها" أي فمل إليها واقبل منهم ذلك ولهذا لما طلب المشركون عام الحديبية الصلح ووضع الحرب بينهم وبين رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم تسع سنين أجابهم إلى ذلك مع ما اشترطوا من الشروط الأخر. وقال عبدالله بن الإمام أحمد حدثنا محمد بن أبي بكر المقدمي حدثني فضيل بن سليمان يعني النميري حدثنا محمد بن أبي يحيى عن إياس بن عمرو الأسلمي عن علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم "إنه سيكون اختلاف أو أمر فإن استطعت أن يكون السلم فافعل" وقال لمجاهد نزلت في بني قريظة وهذا فيه نظر لأن السياق كله في وقعة بدر وذكرها مكتنف لهذا كله وقال ابن عباس ومجاهد وزيد بن أسلم وعطاء الخراساني وعكرمة والحسن وقتادة: إن هذه الآية منسوخة بآية السيف في براءة "قاتلوا الذين لا يؤمنون بالله ولا باليوم الآخر" الآية. وفيه نظر أيضا لأن آية براءة فيها الأمر بقتالهم إذا أمكن ذلك فأما إن كان العدو كثيفا فإنه يجوز مهادنتهم كما دلت عليه هذه الآية الكريمة وكما فعل النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يوم الحديبية فلا منافاة ولا نسخ ولا تخصيص والله أعلم. وقوله "وتوكل على الله" أي صالحهم وتوكل على الله فإن الله كافيك وناصرك.



                              Now the Ibn Kathir does not go on to say as you wrote that he rejects this idea, rather he says
                              ''Ibn Abbas and mujahid [and more] said that this Ayah is abrogated by the verse of the sword in Surah bara'ah [al tawbah] ''Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the last day...'' In it is a view aswell as the verse of bara'ah has the command of fighting when it is possible, but when the enemy is great then it is permissible to make a truce with them as this Ayah noble Ayah shows and as the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم did on the day of hudaybiyyah, so there is no contradiction, and no abrogation and no specification and Allah knows best''

                              So Ibn Kathir took the opinion that the verse is not abrogated because it depends on the situation and if it is possible to fight, so if it possible to fight then Muslims fight, if not then Muslims can make a peace treaty as done on the day of hudaybiyyah when the enemy was equally powerful and wanted a peace treaty

                              And this seems to be the correct opinion, this way both Ayaat can be put together and there is no actual abrogation
                              :wswrwb: brother

                              Let me paste the part of my quote under your claims

                              Originally posted by talibilm09 View Post
                              In fact concerning 9:5 which they claim Ibn kathir says abrogates 2:256, we read that Ibn kathir merely gives THE OPINION of a person by the name of Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim [/B] who said, “It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.”Notice this opinion is not traced back to Allah or the Messenger, which is why the claims of fanatics are baseless but Ad -Dahnak's narrations of Ibn abbas and Abu hurayrah through him are rejected http://islamicencyclopedia.org/publi...cDetail/id/249

                              Kindly note above that Ibn kathir took his OPINION from Ad-Dahanak bin Muzahim and Ad-Dahanak narrations through Ibn `Abbas and Abu Hurayrah were ignored by BOTH GREAT Imaams, Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Yahya Ibn Ma`een ( teacher of Imaam Bukhari) which was an act of wisdom in my opinion by the renowned one of the 4 accepted Imaams of the Muslim Ummah since he uttered something ( I doub't he really uttered it) which with the Faith and wisdom of the great Scholar among the companions and Cousin of Prophet (pbuh), Abdullah Ibn Abbas (ra) would have NEVER ever uttered .

                              Firstly its so ABSURD he is justifying the incident of Hudaybiya that happened in the year 6 AH with a revelation of the 9 AH and you are quoting this without any deliberation or thinking. Nextly Do not say muslims made truce because Muslims were less shows your jahil ness or Ignorance of our Books . Because at Hudaibiyah 1500 Muslims were ready to fight and were 100 % confident even with their deficient Arms as in Badr but it was the ORDER of Allah swt to make peace as we came with the aim of Pilgrimage read sura Al Fath http://legacy.quran.com/48 Prophet's Companions 300 fought 1000 in Badr, 2500 faced 10,000 in BO Khandaq, 3000 fought more than 100,000 at Mutah. Allah is the giver of victory is our beliefs if we are real Muhmins as seen in the Noble Quran when during Battle of Hunayn ( mentioned in the post # 1 here ) some of the new Meccan converts and others uttered similar statements that we are more than ever before (10,000+2000) to face the tribes of Thaqif of Taif at Hunayn but got scattered only 12 remaining with Prophet :saw: facing the enemy face to face but Allah forgave them and gave guts back to recoup subhanallah. and which is seen is the same Sura Baraa or Tauba we are talking all about lest you have gone through the sura well with piety takwa but debate info only with online sites because such quotes you quote contradict the below verse just after few verses of your claim in the same sura (

                              Noble Quran Sura Baraa or Tauba 9:25

                              ''Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn,
                              when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing''.


                              When an average but devout Muslim like me will say that Allah swt is All powerful on all things and is the one who gives Victory ( as in the Noble Quran) how could the BEST SCHOLAR among the companions of Prophet :saw: and his dearest and blessed Cousin Abdullah Ibn abbas uttered such a statement that goes against the noble Quran ??? No wonder Imaam Hamba & The Teacher of our famous hadiths Imaam Bukhari also rejected this sort of absurd quotations which was narrated by Ad -Dahanak the LINK http://islamicencyclopedia.org/publi...cDetail/id/249

                              which also shows that he was not a Tabe'ein or the next generation who met the Companions directly as debated by many and as I keep repeating the hadith quoted in above post # 41 '' STICK ONLY TO RENOWNED SAHABAS AND THE TABEEINS '' and also with CLEAR CUT narrations and that was IMPLEMENTED BY THEM because actions speak more than words as specified in the above post. Allahul aalam.




                              BIT OF ADVICE TO MUSLIM WRITERS WITH GOOD INTENTIONS
                              kindly DELIBERATE FIRST properly the HISTORIC DATES and THE HISTORIC EVENTS, before Claiming anything which only exposes our intentions, knowledge and reality because we do not know who are writing behind the Key boards . Arabic or writing in Arabic does not justify your posts nor make right your mistakes and it also does not confirm the identity of writing person because Sam Shamoun and associates the worst enemies of Islam read and write arabic and know more Quran than us but they use it only to twist them. In My opinion Such claims derogatory to Islam a true muslim will never speak on this section '' Comparative religion '' which really makes me doubts (only) their intention and Id's because you know I have the same thread in a different section but you still OPT TO REPLY HERE : Empty vessels make more noise is the Proverb. and hadith like ....... see the other thread.
                              Last edited by talibilm09; 21-10-15, 05:43 AM.
                              My sect - No Sect

                              My Aqeedah - http://legacy.quran.com/112 ( The Aqeedah of Sahabas)

                              Just a Muslim

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

                                Originally posted by talibilm09 View Post
                                :wswrwb: brother

                                Let me paste the part of my quote under your claims




                                Kindly note above that Ibn kathir took his OPINION from Ad-Dahanak bin Muzahim and Ad-Dahanak narrations through Ibn `Abbas and Abu Hurayrah were ignored by BOTH GREAT Imaams, Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Yahya Ibn Ma`een ( teacher of Imaam Bukhari) which was an act of wisdom in my opinion by the renowned one of the 4 accepted Imaams of the Muslim Ummah since he uttered something ( I doub't he really uttered it) which with the Faith and wisdom of the great Scholar among the companions and Cousin of Prophet (pbuh), Abdullah Ibn Abbas (ra) would have NEVER ever uttered .

                                Firstly its so ABSURD he is justifying the incident of Hudaybiya that happened in the year 6 AH with a revelation of the 9 AH and you are quoting this without any deliberation or thinking. Nextly Do not say muslims made truce because Muslims were less shows your jahil ness or Ignorance of our Books . Because at Hudaibiyah 1500 Muslims were ready to fight and were 100 % confident even with their deficient Arms as in Badr but it was the ORDER of Allah swt to make peace as we came with the aim of Pilgrimage read sura Al Fath http://legacy.quran.com/48 Prophet's Companions 300 fought 1000 in Badr, 2500 faced 10,000 in BO Khandaq, 3000 fought more than 100,000 at Mutah. Allah is the giver of victory is our beliefs if we are real Muhmins as seen in the Noble Quran when during Battle of Hunayn ( mentioned in the post # 1 here ) some of the new Meccan converts and others uttered similar statements that we are more than ever before (10,000+2000) to face the tribes of Thaqif of Taif at Hunayn but got scattered only 12 remaining with Prophet :saw: facing the enemy face to face but Allah forgave them and gave guts back to recoup subhanallah. and which is seen is the same Sura Baraa or Tauba we are talking all about lest you have gone through the sura well with piety takwa but debate info only with online sites because such quotes you quote contradict the below verse just after few verses of your claim in the same sura (

                                Noble Quran Sura Baraa or Tauba 9:25

                                ''Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn,
                                when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing''.


                                When an average but devout Muslim like me will say that Allah swt is All powerful on all things and is the one who gives Victory ( as in the Noble Quran) how could the BEST SCHOLAR among the companions of Prophet :saw: and his dearest and blessed Cousin Abdullah Ibn abbas uttered such a statement that goes against the noble Quran ??? No wonder Imaam Hamba & The Teacher of our famous hadiths Imaam Bukhari also rejected this sort of absurd quotations which was narrated by Ad -Dahanak the LINK http://islamicencyclopedia.org/publi...cDetail/id/249

                                which also shows that he was not a Tabe'ein or the next generation who met the Companions directly as debated by many and as I keep repeating the hadith quoted in above post # 41 '' STICK ONLY TO RENOWNED SAHABAS AND THE TABEEINS '' and also with CLEAR CUT narrations and that was IMPLEMENTED BY THEM because actions speak more than words as specified in the above post. Allahul aalam.




                                BIT OF ADVICE TO MUSLIM WRITERS WITH GOOD INTENTIONS
                                kindly DELIBERATE FIRST properly the HISTORIC DATES and THE HISTORIC EVENTS, before Claiming anything which only exposes our intentions, knowledge and reality because we do not know who are writing behind the Key boards . Arabic or writing in Arabic does not justify your posts nor make right your mistakes and it also does not confirm the identity of writing person because Sam Shamoun and associates the worst enemies of Islam read and write arabic and know more Quran than us but they use it only to twist them. In My opinion Such claims derogatory to Islam a true muslim will never speak on this section '' Comparative religion '' which really makes me doubts (only) their intention and Id's because you know I have the same thread in a different section but you still OPT TO REPLY HERE : Empty vessels make more noise is the Proverb. and hadith like ....... see the other thread.
                                You have quite a few issues confused, copy this into the lounge and we will discuss over there
                                ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

                                Comment

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