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I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

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  • I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

    Brothers and sisters, please read it and post your reflections on what he has said. The part's i've highlighted I personally think have similarities to statements Allah has made in quran about himself or about the enemies of believers, feel free to comment.
    In 1805 a Boston missionary society requested Red Jacket’s permission to proselytize among the Iroquois settlements in northern New York State. Red Jacket’s forceful defense of native religion, below, caused the representative to refuse the Indian’s handshake and announce that no fellowship could exist between the religion of God and the works of the Devil:

    Friend and brother; it was the will of the Great Spirit that we should meet together this day. He orders all things, and he has given us a fine day for our council. He has taken his garment from before the sun, and caused it to shine with brightness upon us; our eyes are opened, that we see clearly; our ears are unstopped, that we have been able to hear distinctly the words that you have spoken; for all these favors we thank the Great Spirit, and him only.

    Brother, this council fire was kindled by you; it was at your request that we came together at this time; we have listened with attention to what you have said. You requested us to speak our minds freely; this gives us great joy, for we now consider that we stand upright before you, and can speak what we think; all have heard your voice, and all speak to you as one man; our minds are agreed.

    Brother, you say you want an answer to your talk before you leave this place. It is right you should have one, as you are a great distance from home, and we do not wish to detain you; but we will first look back a little, and tell you what our fathers have told us, and what we have heard from the white people.

    Brother, listen to what we say. There was a time when our forefathers owned this great island. Their seats extended from the rising to the setting sun. The Great Spirit had made it for the use of Indians. He had created the buffalo, the deer, and other animals for food. He made the bear and the beaver, and their skins served us for clothing. He had scattered them over the country, and taught us how to take them. He had caused the earth to produce corn for bread. All this he had done for his red children because he loved them. If we had any disputes about hunting grounds, they were generally settled without the shedding of much blood.

    But an evil day came upon us; your forefathers crossed the great waters, and landed on this island. Their numbers were small; they found friends, and not enemies; they told us they had fled from their own country for fear of wicked men, and come here to enjoy their religion. They asked for a small seat; we took pity on them, granted their request, and they sat down amongst us; we gave them corn and meat; they gave us poison (alcohol) in return.

    The white people had now found our country; tidings were carried back, and more came amongst us; yet we did not fear them, we took them to be friends; they called us brothers; we believed them, and gave them a larger seat. At length, their numbers had greatly increased; they wanted more land; they wanted our country. Our eyes were opened, and our minds became uneasy. Wars took place; Indians were hired to fight against Indians, and many of our people were destroyed. They also brought strong liquor among us; it was strong and powerful, and has slain thousands.

    Brother, our seats were once large, and yours were very small; you have now become a great people, and we have scarcely a place left to spread our blankets; you have got our country, but are not satisfied; you want to force your religion upon us.

    Brother, continue to listen. You say you are sent to instruct us how to worship the Great Spirit agreeably to his mind, and if we do not take hold of the religion which you white people teach, we shall be unhappy hereafter. You say that you are right, and we are lost; how do we know this to be true? We understand that your religion is written in a book; if it was intended for us as well as you, why has not the Great Spirit given it to us, and not only to us, but why did he not give to our forefathers the knowledge of that book, with the means of understanding it rightly? We only know what you tell us about it. How shall we know when to believe, being so often deceived by the white people?

    Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit; if there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book?

    Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told that your religion was given to your forefathers, and has been handed down from father to son. We also have a religion which was given to our forefathers, and has been handed down to us their children. We worship that way. It teacheth us to be thankful for all the favors we receive; to love each other, and to be united. We never quarrel about religion.

    Brother, the Great Spirit has made us all; but he has made a great difference between his white and red children; he has given us a different complexion, and different customs; to you he has given the arts; to these he has not opened our eyes; we know these things to be true. Since he has made so great a difference between us in other things, why may we not conclude that he has given us a different religion according to our understanding. The Great Spirit does right; he knows what is best for his children; we are satisfied.

    Brother, we do not wish to destroy your religion, or take it from you; we only want to enjoy our own.

    Brother, you say you have not come to get our land or our money, but to enlighten our minds. I will now tell you that I have been at your meetings, and saw you collecting money from the meeting. I cannot tell what this money was intended for, but suppose it was for your minister; and if we should conform to your way of thinking, perhaps you may want some from us.

    Brother, we are told that you have been preaching to the white people in this place. These people are our neighbors; we are acquainted with them; we will wait, a little while and see what effect your preaching has upon them. If we find it does them good, makes them honest and less disposed to cheat Indians, we will then consider again what you have said.

    Brother, you have now heard our answer to your talk, and this is all we have to say at present. As we are going to part, we will come and take you by the hand, and hope the Great Spirit will protect you on your journey, and return you safe to your friends.

    Source: Daniel Drake, Lives of Celebrated American Indians, Boston, Bradbury, Soden & Co. 1843), 283–87.

    http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5790/
    I want your reflections on THIS Thread, please post!

    The great Imam ash-Shafi’, he went to his teacher Waki` Complaining about the weakness of his memory.He told him, "Abandon rebellion, for knowledge is a light - And the light of Allah is not bestowed upon a rebel." [video]

  • #2
    Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

    something interesting I also read, but has nothing to do with the op, is that he suffered from the 'poison' that was given to him as gifts. he became an addict. when he was already ill, he said this about himself:

    "Red Jacket was once a great man, and in favor with the Great Spirit. He was a lofty pine among the smaller trees of the forest. But, after years of glory, he degraded himself by drinking the firewater of the white man. The Great Spirit has looked upon him in anger, and his lightning has stripped the pine of its branches."

    (branches = children. they all died from illness as well)

    https://books.google.com/books?id=U0...ed=0CDIQ6AEwAQ
    Last edited by Taboo; 07-06-15, 07:25 AM.
    I want your reflections on THIS Thread, please post!

    The great Imam ash-Shafi’, he went to his teacher Waki` Complaining about the weakness of his memory.He told him, "Abandon rebellion, for knowledge is a light - And the light of Allah is not bestowed upon a rebel." [video]

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

      Oh yeah I see what you mean there is a similarity, you know someone was telling me something similar I wish I could remember what they said so I could share it, it was pretty interesting.
      Allah sent down his tranquillity upon him and supported him with angels you did not see and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowest, while the word of Allah - that is the highest. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

        I'll try to find out.
        Allah sent down his tranquillity upon him and supported him with angels you did not see and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowest, while the word of Allah - that is the highest. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

          Subhan'Allah. It is amazing when you consider that the same thing is happening now. But rather than the Europeans invading the Native American lands under false pretenses of friendship and humanitarian aid, its the United Shaytaans of America using the same guise to do the same in Muslim Lands. Only, rather than aid, they bring bombs. It shows that Iblees has been perfecting his craft over the years.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

            Originally posted by hadmatter View Post
            Oh yeah I see what you mean there is a similarity, you know someone was telling me something similar I wish I could remember what they said so I could share it, it was pretty interesting.
            Originally posted by hadmatter View Post
            I'll try to find out.
            Nice. i'd like to see it :)
            I want your reflections on THIS Thread, please post!

            The great Imam ash-Shafi’, he went to his teacher Waki` Complaining about the weakness of his memory.He told him, "Abandon rebellion, for knowledge is a light - And the light of Allah is not bestowed upon a rebel." [video]

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

              Originally posted by Abisali View Post
              Subhan'Allah. It is amazing when you consider that the same thing is happening now. But rather than the Europeans invading the Native American lands under false pretenses of friendship and humanitarian aid, its the United Shaytaans of America using the same guise to do the same in Muslim Lands. Only, rather than aid, they bring bombs. It shows that Iblees has been perfecting his craft over the years.
              yes.. that did come immediately to mind.. but I didn't want to taint the replies with my own opinions lol. it's easy to see connections between this and many destroyed civilizations in past years. satan is hard at work.
              I want your reflections on THIS Thread, please post!

              The great Imam ash-Shafi’, he went to his teacher Waki` Complaining about the weakness of his memory.He told him, "Abandon rebellion, for knowledge is a light - And the light of Allah is not bestowed upon a rebel." [video]

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

                Originally posted by Taboo View Post
                yes.. that did come immediately to mind.. but I didn't want to taint the replies with my own opinions lol. it's easy to see connections between this and many destroyed civilizations in past years. satan is hard at work.
                It seems like he uses the same stratagem for most of his work. I can't wait for him to face his Maker on judgement day. Will we be allowed to throw lumps of coal at him if we make it to Jannah (Insha'Allah)?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

                  It's amazing how people who never went to school can be so eloquent. The amazing thing though is that the same thing can be said to Muslims today. In fact, ten times worse things.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

                    subhannallah incredible taboo where did you come across this
                    Abdullah Ibn al-Mubarak: "One doesn't become noble with any type of knowledge if he doesn't beautify his knowledge with good conduct." (Adab Shar'iyyah 4/208)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

                      Originally posted by Taboo View Post
                      Brothers and sisters, please read it and post your reflections on what he has said. The part's i've highlighted I personally think have similarities to statements Allah has made in quran about himself or about the enemies of believers, feel free to comment.
                      In 1805 a Boston missionary society requested Red Jacket’s permission to proselytize among the Iroquois settlements in northern New York State. Red Jacket’s forceful defense of native religion, below, caused the representative to refuse the Indian’s handshake and announce that no fellowship could exist between the religion of God and the works of the Devil:

                      Friend and brother; it was the will of the Great Spirit that we should meet together this day. He orders all things, and he has given us a fine day for our council. He has taken his garment from before the sun, and caused it to shine with brightness upon us; our eyes are opened, that we see clearly; our ears are unstopped, that we have been able to hear distinctly the words that you have spoken; for all these favors we thank the Great Spirit, and him only.

                      Brother, this council fire was kindled by you; it was at your request that we came together at this time; we have listened with attention to what you have said. You requested us to speak our minds freely; this gives us great joy, for we now consider that we stand upright before you, and can speak what we think; all have heard your voice, and all speak to you as one man; our minds are agreed.

                      Brother, you say you want an answer to your talk before you leave this place. It is right you should have one, as you are a great distance from home, and we do not wish to detain you; but we will first look back a little, and tell you what our fathers have told us, and what we have heard from the white people.

                      Brother, listen to what we say. There was a time when our forefathers owned this great island. Their seats extended from the rising to the setting sun. The Great Spirit had made it for the use of Indians. He had created the buffalo, the deer, and other animals for food. He made the bear and the beaver, and their skins served us for clothing. He had scattered them over the country, and taught us how to take them. He had caused the earth to produce corn for bread. All this he had done for his red children because he loved them. If we had any disputes about hunting grounds, they were generally settled without the shedding of much blood.

                      But an evil day came upon us; your forefathers crossed the great waters, and landed on this island. Their numbers were small; they found friends, and not enemies; they told us they had fled from their own country for fear of wicked men, and come here to enjoy their religion. They asked for a small seat; we took pity on them, granted their request, and they sat down amongst us; we gave them corn and meat; they gave us poison (alcohol) in return.

                      The white people had now found our country; tidings were carried back, and more came amongst us; yet we did not fear them, we took them to be friends; they called us brothers; we believed them, and gave them a larger seat. At length, their numbers had greatly increased; they wanted more land; they wanted our country. Our eyes were opened, and our minds became uneasy. Wars took place; Indians were hired to fight against Indians, and many of our people were destroyed. They also brought strong liquor among us; it was strong and powerful, and has slain thousands.

                      Brother, our seats were once large, and yours were very small; you have now become a great people, and we have scarcely a place left to spread our blankets; you have got our country, but are not satisfied; you want to force your religion upon us.

                      Brother, continue to listen. You say you are sent to instruct us how to worship the Great Spirit agreeably to his mind, and if we do not take hold of the religion which you white people teach, we shall be unhappy hereafter. You say that you are right, and we are lost; how do we know this to be true? We understand that your religion is written in a book; if it was intended for us as well as you, why has not the Great Spirit given it to us, and not only to us, but why did he not give to our forefathers the knowledge of that book, with the means of understanding it rightly? We only know what you tell us about it. How shall we know when to believe, being so often deceived by the white people?

                      Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit; if there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book?

                      Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told that your religion was given to your forefathers, and has been handed down from father to son. We also have a religion which was given to our forefathers, and has been handed down to us their children. We worship that way. It teacheth us to be thankful for all the favors we receive; to love each other, and to be united. We never quarrel about religion.

                      Brother, the Great Spirit has made us all; but he has made a great difference between his white and red children; he has given us a different complexion, and different customs; to you he has given the arts; to these he has not opened our eyes; we know these things to be true. Since he has made so great a difference between us in other things, why may we not conclude that he has given us a different religion according to our understanding. The Great Spirit does right; he knows what is best for his children; we are satisfied.

                      Brother, we do not wish to destroy your religion, or take it from you; we only want to enjoy our own.

                      Brother, you say you have not come to get our land or our money, but to enlighten our minds. I will now tell you that I have been at your meetings, and saw you collecting money from the meeting. I cannot tell what this money was intended for, but suppose it was for your minister; and if we should conform to your way of thinking, perhaps you may want some from us.

                      Brother, we are told that you have been preaching to the white people in this place. These people are our neighbors; we are acquainted with them; we will wait, a little while and see what effect your preaching has upon them. If we find it does them good, makes them honest and less disposed to cheat Indians, we will then consider again what you have said.

                      Brother, you have now heard our answer to your talk, and this is all we have to say at present. As we are going to part, we will come and take you by the hand, and hope the Great Spirit will protect you on your journey, and return you safe to your friends.

                      Source: Daniel Drake, Lives of Celebrated American Indians, Boston, Bradbury, Soden & Co. 1843), 283–87.

                      http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5790/
                      I was asked a question some time ago on another thread regarding being spiritually evolved without having a 'book' to follow. I mentioned then, then native American Indians and the Australian Aboriginal race. It did not receive the same response, however, it is good that it is recognised that spirituality is not dependant on which book you follow.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

                        Originally posted by SBL View Post
                        I was asked a question some time ago on another thread regarding being spiritually evolved without having a 'book' to follow. I mentioned then, then native American Indians and the Australian Aboriginal race. It did not receive the same response, however, it is good that it is recognised that spirituality is not dependant on which book you follow.
                        Allah azawajal has said in quran that he had sent a prophet to every nation of people, he just did not name them all. so it makes sense that many people had guidance, not just the middle east (where the abrahamic faiths were revealed).
                        I want your reflections on THIS Thread, please post!

                        The great Imam ash-Shafi’, he went to his teacher Waki` Complaining about the weakness of his memory.He told him, "Abandon rebellion, for knowledge is a light - And the light of Allah is not bestowed upon a rebel." [video]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

                          Originally posted by Taboo View Post
                          Allah azawajal has said in quran that He had sent a prophet to every nation of people, he just did not name them all. so it makes sense that many people had guidance, not just the middle east (where the abrahamic faiths were revealed).
                          I came back to this thread to mention this. I realized it as soon as I went to bed, and was too lazy to come back and post.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

                            Originally posted by Abisali View Post
                            I came back to this thread to mention this. I realized it as soon as I went to bed, and was too lazy to come back and post.
                            yes, and even when I was christian I had thought it was arrogant of christians to assume they (first as jews then as christians/jewish followers of jesus) were the only nation of people that were spoken to or ever received guidance from Allah, enough they thought they could justify killing and forced conversion.

                            both the children of adam (as) and noah (as) spread out very far from home. it is unrealistic to think that they didn't take their teachings with them or that the entire earth was abandoned except the middle east, Allah does not abandon people.


                            And for every nation is a messenger. So when their messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged http://quran.com/10/47

                            And Messengers We have mentioned to you before, and Messengers We have not mentioned to you, - and to Musa (Moses) Allah spoke directly. http://quran.com/4/164

                            Verily! We have sent you with the truth, a bearer of glad tidings, and a warner. And there never was a nation but a warner had passed among them. http://quran.com/35/24

                            Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." http://quran.com/2/136
                            Last edited by Taboo; 09-06-15, 09:03 AM.
                            I want your reflections on THIS Thread, please post!

                            The great Imam ash-Shafi’, he went to his teacher Waki` Complaining about the weakness of his memory.He told him, "Abandon rebellion, for knowledge is a light - And the light of Allah is not bestowed upon a rebel." [video]

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: I want your Reflections on this: Chief Sagoyewatha's Speech to the christians

                              Assalaamu'alaykum,

                              This is such a great thread. I never knew the Native Americans (I heard calling them Red Indians is inappropriate as they're not Indians) were monotheistic. I thought, like many old civilisations, they were idol worshippers or polytheists. Jazaak'Allah khayr for the enlightenment.

                              And what a beautiful speech by the Chief of the Native American tribe. Very eloquent. You can see he was very wise and full of faith and tolerance. How I wish Muslims had reached America before the British and Spanish. Things would have been better for them.
                              But everything is written and Allāh has a greater plan.

                              I also want to say that these same tactics (acting like friends and being two faced hypocrites) is still used by America and co today. The British used that tactic on Arabs last century which led to the Arab uprising against the Ottoman empire and ultimately to the collapse of the Islamic Khilāfah.

                              Some things just don't change.
                              Last edited by Ajabah; 11-06-15, 10:36 AM.
                              Let not the free disposal (and affluence) of the disbelievers throughout the land deceive you.

                              [Surah Aali-'Imraan: V. 196]

                              Comment

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