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    Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Sure, here’s an excerpt from its ‘Overview’ paragraph of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
    From the same link:

    Arius emphasized the supremacy and uniqueness of God the Father, meaning that the Father alone is almighty and infinite, and that therefore the Father's divinity must be greater than the Son's. Arius taught that the Son had a beginning, and that he possessed neither the eternity nor the true divinity of the Father, but was rather made "God" only by the Father's permission and power.
    Also:

    Arius believed Jesus created the universe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_controversy)

    And that Jesus should be worshipped (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Arianism)

    So to sum up, all sides believed Jesus was divine, was God, created the universe and should be worshipped.

    You will also have noted that what even the Arians were saying is completely incompatible with saying Jesus was just a prophet.

    I wonder if I could ask you again to answer the question I've set: Was it, in your opinion, Paul who introduced the idea of Jesus as the divine creator of the universe, or was it introduced from nowhere at Nicea? If the latter, please produce the evidence.

    By the way, can we referred Cyrus as Christ or Messiah too since Isaiah 45 said he too is God’s anointed one ??
    The Messiah in first Century Judaism was supposed to free Israel, so no (Josephus et al).

    because Isaiah 45 was referring to God (NOT Jesus)..... I agree with you, in the context of the Shema...LORD...refers to God alone both as Lord and God
    'Lord' may be used in different ways in different contexts, but let's stick to the one in the Shema, which Paul has adapted to incorporate Jesus. I'm glad we've agreed that there it's used of God.

    So:

    In the Shema, Lord describes God. In Paul's Shema adaptation, Lord is used of Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.

    In Isaiah, God says every knee will bow to God. Paul says every knee will bow to Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.

    In Genesis, God created the universe. In John, Jesus created the universe. Conclusion: John thinks Jesus is God.

    It seems pretty clear that the Early Church thought Jesus was God. The way the Early Church talked about Jesus wasn't the way they'd talk about a prophet.

    You should also be aware that we agree completely that God is One, not two or three. Paul would absolutely agree as well.

    So, how did the people before Jesus, reconcile with God ??
    Reconciliation with God in first century Judaism is a lengthy topic, but it involved repentance and sacrifice of animals.

    In the context of Isaiah 41, the Lord, the Redeemer is a reference to God... Are you saying death is the price of sin and you will live forever because you are freed from sin as a result of Jesus’ “death”
    That is mainstream Christianity, and (pretty much!) all churches believe this.

    This is why saying that God is the Redeemer of humanity (OT), and concluding that Jesus redeemed humanity, as the disciples did, lead to the conclusion from the disciples that Jesus is God.

    you will never get it
    Would it surprise you to learn that I pray every day for knowledge of the truth?



    Comment


      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      From the same link:
      Arius emphasized the supremacy and uniqueness of God the Father, meaning that the Father alone is almighty and infinite, and that therefore the Father's divinity must be greater than the Son's. Arius taught that the Son had a beginning, and that he possessed neither the eternity nor the true divinity of the Father, but was rather made "God" only by the Father's permission and power.
      The fact that Arius believed Jesus “had a beginning and possessed neither the eternity nor the true divinity of the Father” means he believed Jesus is NOT God – why is that so difficult to understand ??

      Or are you misled by the statement ‘but was rather made "God"[/U] only by the Father's permission and power’??

      You would notice that the word God in that statement is in quotes, as in ‘rather made “God”’, which tells us Jesus is NOT made a Supreme God or equal to God but rather a reference to someone who is a man of God, that is, someone who is righteous and piety and submit himself only to God. Jesus is such a man (that is, righteous and piety) because of God’s Will, that is, by His permission and power.

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      Also:
      Arius believed Jesus created the universe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_controversy)

      And that Jesus should be worshipped (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Arianism)
      Those articles did not really say Arius said Jesus should be worshiped nor did they say Arius believed Jesus created the universe. Which part of those articles you quoted said so ??

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      So to sum up, all sides believed Jesus was divine, was God, created the universe and should be worshipped.
      You mean, ‘Jesus was divine, was God, created the universe and should be worshiped’ based on your suppositions and conjectures and NOT supported by any scripture verses ??

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      You will also have noted that what even the Arians were saying is completely incompatible with saying Jesus was just a prophet.
      What exactly were the Arians’ sayings that “completely incompatible with saying Jesus was just a prophet” ??

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      I wonder if I could ask you again to answer the question I've set: Was it, in your opinion, Paul who introduced the idea of Jesus as the divine creator of the universe, or was it introduced from nowhere at Nicea? If the latter, please produce the evidence.
      Wasn’t that answered ?? Perhaps you should revisit Post #1513. Just because you don’t like the answer does not mean your questions are not answered.

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      The Messiah in first Century Judaism was supposed to free Israel, so no (Josephus et al).
      I asked you that because according to the Bible info site (http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/question...s-messiah-mean) , ‘messiah’ come from the Hebrew word meaning ‘the anointed one’. ‘Christ’ is the Greek name for ‘messiah’. So, technically speaking, since Cyrus is also God’s anointed one, its not wrong to call Cyrus as Christ or Messiah too.

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      'Lord' may be used in different ways in different contexts, but let's stick to the one in the Shema, which Paul has adapted to incorporate Jesus. I'm glad we've agreed that there it's used of God.
      I am glad that you are glad and in agreement that ‘Lord’ in the context of Isaiah 45 was a reference to God, NOT Jesus.

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      So:
      In the Shema, Lord describes God. In Paul's Shema adaptation, Lord is used of Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.

      In Isaiah, God says every knee will bow to God. Paul says every knee will bow to Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.

      In Genesis, God created the universe. In John, Jesus created the universe. Conclusion: John thinks Jesus is God.
      Well, your conclusions are based on suppositions.

      I could take you more seriously if you can show verse(s) from your scripture that clearly said Paul and John really believe Jesus is God. Can you ??

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      It seems pretty clear that the Early Church thought Jesus was God. The way the Early Church talked about Jesus wasn't the way they'd talk about a prophet.
      You mean the way the Romans dictated the EC to talk about Jesus as a God rather than a prophet ?? Sure, over time, as new generations replaced the old generations of EC, people will start to believe and talk of Jesus as a God EXCEPT for the true followers of Jesus.

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      You should also be aware that we agree completely that God is One, not two or three. Paul would absolutely agree as well.
      How can you agree God is ONE when you believe Jesus is also a God ?? Did Jesus himself said that or just your suppositions ??

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      Reconciliation with God in first century Judaism is a lengthy topic, but it involved repentance and sacrifice of animals.
      All prophets preached repentance and submission to the will of God as the only true ways of reconciling with God.

      Jesus himself said “Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven has come near” – Mathew 4:17.

      Fact is not one prophet, including Jesus himself, ever preached a man can die for mankind sin.

      Here’s the thing – Satan’s only mission is to lure mankind away from worshipping the One and Only God – the very same God who created Jesus from His Word.
      So, believing Jesus is God and that he ‘died’ for your sin is what Satan wants you to believe as it achieved his objective.

      Think about it – how can Jesus be God when Jesus himself admitted he was sent by God ??

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      That is mainstream Christianity, and (pretty much!) all churches believe this.
      You mean you disagree with mainstream Christianity and the Church ?? What is it that you disagree with mainstream Christianity ??

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      This is why saying that God is the Redeemer of humanity (OT), and concluding that Jesus redeemed humanity, as the disciples did, lead to the conclusion from the disciples that Jesus is God.
      Concluding Jesus is God based on your own suppositions without scripture evidences is NOT a strong case to make. Can you show verses from your scripture that said the disciples, or even Paul, concluded Jesus is God ??

      Originally posted by Alex S View Post
      Would it surprise you to learn that I pray every day for knowledge of the truth?
      ​​​​​​​
      Nope, I am not surprised and you know why you still have not seen the Truth ?? That’s because you live in falsehood and praying every day in falsehood belief is not going to get you to the Truth.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Alex S View Post
        This is Basic Christianity. It's intended to be helpful, rather than to provoke further debate.


        Man, as represented by Adam and Eve, committed sin. (Genesis 3: 8–19). As a consequence, humanity was exiled from God's presence, and we were subjected to death.

        This was only the beginning of the story. God had a plan of rescue. It all began with Abraham's obedience in being prepared to sacrifice his son, which was rewarded by being told that through his descendants, all the nations of the world would be blessed (Genesis 22)

        Abraham's descendants, the Jewish nation, down the generations were a very mixed bunch. They were capable of great obedience to God, but at other times were awful. God would then punish them. However, God was always faithful to the Jewish nation, and would forgive them and restore them to their place in the world. Much of the OT is taken up with this cycle of sin-exile-forgiveness-restoration.

        Finally, there came a time when the Israelites were overrun by the Babylonians as a punishment for sin; and the Temple, God's special dwelling place, was destroyed. Although a tragedy, at this time, God's prophets started predicting a time when God would forgive and restore Israel, and this would be an event that would result in a new age for the whole of humanity. (Isaiah 9). This would be done in some sense by a mysterious individual, who came to be known as the Messiah by Jesus' time. (Isaiah 11), and yet it was God Himself who would do these things (see earlier posts). And who was the suffering servant of Isaiah 53?

        Cyrus the great in turn overran Babylon, and sent the Jews back to Israel, and rebuilt their Temple. But it soon became clear that this wasn't the promised Kingdom of God, as first the Greeks and then the Romans overran Israel.

        Into this mess, Jesus was born (Luke 1,2)(Matthew 1,2). While the Jews were looking for a military victory, which would show the Jews the forgiveness-restoration of earlier Jewish kingdom days, Jesus had a much, much bigger plan.

        This was to be the forgiveness of sins and restoration to God's presence that undid Adam's sin and exile. This was to be the sacrifice, not of Abraham's son, but God's, on the cross. This death of His Son was the price God had to pay for our sin, to restore the relationship between humanity and God broken by sin.

        And so God came to dwell among us. Many failed to recognise Him, but He went ahead and did His job, paying for our sins, by His perfect life and death on a cross. (John 1)

        I hope this helps.

        That’s NOT basic Christianity, Alex. Basic Christianity is the belief that Jesus is God and he died for the sin of mankind. To prove my point, let me ask you this – what will happen to Christianity if Jesus is NOT God in the flesh and he did not die (for man sin) and rise again ??



        Comment


          I'm really busy at present (because of the time of year!). It may be a little while before I can reply to these. Then again it may not.

          Comment


            Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
            That’s NOT basic Christianity, Alex. Basic Christianity is the belief that Jesus is God and he died for the sin of mankind. To prove my point, let me ask you this – what will happen to Christianity if Jesus is NOT God in the flesh and he did not die (for man sin) and rise again ??
            Nothing at all. What I put down are the basic beliefs of Christianity. Even if they are wrong, they are still the basic beliefs of Christianity.

            Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

            The fact that Arius believed Jesus “had a beginning and possessed neither the eternity nor the true divinity of the Father” means he believed Jesus is NOT God – why is that so difficult to understand ??

            <snip>

            You mean, ‘Jesus was divine, was God, created the universe and should be worshiped’ based on your suppositions and conjectures and NOT supported by any scripture verses ??
            I think you've missed the point. Your claim is that Constantine forced the Empire to believe things about Jesus. Now everyone in the room already believed that Jesus was divine, created the universe and should be worshipped.

            The quotes requested-

            1) “the Father's divinity must be greater than the Son's.” 2)“but was rather made "God" only by the Father's permission and power.” Whether made or always was, Jesus is divine

            “Arius maintained that the Son of God was a Creature, made from nothing; and that he was God's First Production, before all ages. And he argued that everything else was created through the Son” God” Jesus created the universe

            Under Arius “since worship of the Son was not abandoned” Arius worshipped Jesus

            Finally, please note the section “Role of Constantine ”here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...of_Constantine
            You will note that Constantine let the Bishops make the decisions about Jesus' status.

            Indeed, crucially, “After the Nicene council, and against its conclusions, he eventually recalled Arius from exile and banished Athanasius of Alexandria to Trier.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consta...d_Christianity

            Conclusion- Constantine did not force the Church to believe that Jesus was divine, created the universe or should be worshipped. In fact not long after Nicea, he didn't even bother to enforce its decisions.


            You mean the way the Romans dictated the EC to talk about Jesus as a God rather than a prophet ?
            This did not happen. Could I ask you to show me your evidence that the Early Church was forced to do this by the Romans?

            ‘messiah’ come from the Hebrew word meaning ‘the anointed one’. ‘Christ’ is the Greek name for ‘messiah’. So, technically speaking, since Cyrus is also God’s anointed one, its not wrong to call Cyrus as Christ or Messiah too.
            In the first century AD, Israel was waiting for the Kingdom of God to arrive. The Messiah was a specific individual central to delivering this (see Josephus). Since Cyrus was dead, it wasn't him.

            I could take you more seriously if you can show verse(s) from your scripture that clearly said Paul and John really believe Jesus is God. Can you ??
            Those verses already given, from Scripture, clearly say that Paul and John believed that Jesus was God. The comparisons are crystal clear.

            How can you agree God is ONE when you believe Jesus is also a God ??
            The Early Church, all hard-line monotheists (including Paul), all believed that Jesus was a manifestation of the One God.

            As Jews, they believed that the Pillar of Cloud and Fire, God's presence in the Tabernacle, and the Burning Bush were manifestations of God, and that, very similarly, Jesus was the latest example. One God, appearing in the form of a human.
            Last edited by Alex S; 01-01-18, 04:53 PM. Reason: Struggling with the links system

            Comment


              Originally posted by Alex S View Post
              Nothing at all. What I put down are the basic beliefs of Christianity. Even if they are wrong, they are still the basic beliefs of Christianity.
              You don’t get what I'm saying. What I am saying is that what you put down are NOT the basic beliefs of Christianity. Again, what will happen to Christianity if Jesus is NOT God in the flesh and he did not die (for man sin) and rise again ??
              Originally posted by Alex S View Post
              I think you've missed the point. Your claim is that Constantine forced the Empire to believe things about Jesus. Now everyone in the room already believed that Jesus was divine, created the universe and should be worshipped. The quotes requested- 1) “the Father's divinity must be greater than the Son's.” 2)“but was rather made "God" only by the Father's permission and power.” Whether made or always was, Jesus is divine “Arius maintained that the Son of God was a Creature, made from nothing; ……blah………blah………blah…,,,,,,,,, Conclusion- Constantine did not force the Church to believe that Jesus was divine, created the universe or should be worshipped. In fact not long after Nicea, he didn't even bother to enforce its decisions.
              Let me refresh your memory – you are responding here to my comment which read “The fact that Arius believed Jesus ‘had a beginning and possessed neither the eternity nor the true divinity of the Father’ means he believed Jesus is NOT God…….blah…………. ……blah……blah…………blah…………blah…… You mean, ‘Jesus was divine, was God, created the universe and should be worshiped’ based on your suppositions and conjectures and NOT supported by any scripture verses ??” Your response, in this respect, did not address the fact that Arius believed Jesus has a beginning and did not have the eternity and divinity of the Father (ie. God). In other words, for Arius to believe Jesus is God, he (and probably, you) must believe God has a beginning and is not divine all the time. Question is - do you believe God has a beginning ? The key phrase in my original comment above is that your comments are ‘NOT supported by any scripture verses’, or to be more precise, by Jesus himself on who he really is as recorded in your own scriptures. So, instead of just quoting 'WikiLeaks' and others ‘leaks’, why don’t you, for once, quote what Jesus said about himself from your own Bible too ?? In that way, we can see whether your source of information agrees with what Jesus said of himself in your very own scriptures.
              Originally posted by Alex S View Post
              This did not happen. Could I ask you to show me your evidence that the Early Church was forced to do this by the Romans?
              The evidence can be traced from your own Bible. None of the people in Jesus’ times, including his own disciples, believe Jesus is God. If none of the people in Jesus times believed he is God, as according to your own Bible, then, the belief ‘Jesus is God’ came after Jesus was long gone and all his close disciples are long dead. So, where and when do you think this belief of ‘Jesus is God’ can likely come from, other than during the reign of the Roman Empire ?? Where do you think December 25 and Christmas celebration came from ?? The scriptures ?? Cannot be, as the Scripture made no mention of Christmas or December 25 as the date Jesus was born. So where do you think they came from ?? (Psst, clue – the Romans)
              Originally posted by Alex S View Post
              Those verses already given, from Scripture, clearly say that Paul and John believed that Jesus was God. The comparisons are crystal clear.
              Help me here and refresh my memory – what are “Those verses, already given, from Scripture, clearly say that Paul and John believed that Jesus was God” ?? What verses that are ‘crystal clear’ again ??
              Originally posted by Alex S View Post
              The Early Church, all hard-line monotheists (including Paul), all believed that Jesus was a manifestation of the One God ………………One God, appearing in the form of a human.
              ….And the verses from the Scriptures to support this claim are….?? As I said before, I could take you more seriously if you can show verse(s) from your own scripture that clearly stated all really believe Jesus is God or a manifestation of God. Can you ?? Unless of course, you believe in ’what other people said of who Jesus is’ MUCH MORE than what you believe in ’what Jesus himself said of who he is’, as recorded in your own scriptures.

              Comment



                ......
                Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 15-01-18, 02:37 AM. Reason: Later inshaAllah

                Comment


                  Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                  You don’t get what I'm saying. What I am saying is that what you put down are NOT the basic beliefs of Christianity. Again, what will happen to Christianity if Jesus is NOT God in the flesh and he did not die (for man sin) and rise again ??
                  You're muddling up belief and truth here. Someone can believe something that isn't true.

                  Let me refresh your memory – you are responding here to my comment which read ...<snip>...So, instead of just quoting 'WikiLeaks' and others ‘leaks’, why don’t you, for once, quote what Jesus said about himself from your own Bible too ?? In that way, we can see whether your source of information agrees with what Jesus said of himself in your very own scriptures.
                  You were trying to argue that the divinity of Jesus was forced on the church at Nicea by the emperor. I'm pointing out that historically this is wrong.

                  Help me here and refresh my memory – what are “Those verses, already given, from Scripture, clearly say that Paul and John believed that Jesus was God” ?? What verses that are ‘crystal clear’ again ?? …
                  In the Shema, Lord describes God. In Paul's Shema adaptation, Lord is used of Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.

                  In Isaiah, God says every knee will bow to God. Paul says every knee will bow to Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.

                  In Genesis, God created the universe. In John, Jesus created the universe. Conclusion: John thinks Jesus is God.

                  It seems pretty clear from the Bible that the Early Church thought Jesus was God.

                  ~~~

                  However all that is irrelevant to the argument I'm making, so this tangent has a limited future length.

                  My argument, from the beginning, is that the Early Church believed that Jesus was God because He did things that God had said He would do. God said in the OT that He'll save mankind, return to Israel, invite the world to join in His blessing, and establish His Kingdom. The Early Church realised that Jesus had done these things, things God said (in the OT) he would do, and so Jesus clearly had to be an active part of God.

                  So I wonder if I could ask that we get back to discussing the argument I'm making, rather than one I'm not? Thanks in anticipation.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Alex S View Post
                    You're muddling up belief and truth here. Someone can believe something that isn't true.
                    Well, you got that right ! Just look at yourself – you are a good example of someone who believe something that just isn’t true!


                    Originally posted by Alex S View Post
                    You were trying to argue that the divinity of Jesus was forced on the church at Nicea by the emperor. I'm pointing out that historically this is wrong.
                    Historically wrong (according to your own understanding), don’t make it Scripturally right.


                    Originally posted by Alex S View Post
                    In the Shema, Lord describes God. In Paul's Shema adaptation, Lord is used of Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.
                    In Isaiah, God says every knee will bow to God. Paul says every knee will bow to Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.
                    In Genesis, God created the universe. In John, Jesus created the universe. Conclusion: John thinks Jesus is God.

                    It seems pretty clear from the Bible that the Early Church thought Jesus was God.
                    However all that is irrelevant to the argument I'm making, so this tangent has a limited future length.
                    My argument, from the beginning, is that the Early Church believed that Jesus was God because He did things that God had said He would do. God said in the OT that He'll save mankind, return to Israel, invite the world to join in His blessing, and establish His Kingdom. The Early Church realised that Jesus had done these things, things God said (in the OT) he would do, and so Jesus clearly had to be an active part of God.
                    Sure, if you believe in the words of other people more than you believe in the words of Jesus himself.


                    Originally posted by Alex S View Post
                    So I wonder if I could ask that we get back to discussing the argument I'm making, rather than one I'm not? Thanks in anticipation.
                    So, what’s the argument you are making other than that you believe the words of other people more than you believe in Jesus himself ?? Show me the words of Jesus, and NOT that of others, that clearly showed, beyond shadow of doubts, that he’s God. Thanks in anticipation.

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                      Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 03-02-18, 11:07 AM.

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                        Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 21-01-18, 04:02 PM.

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                          Again, life has taken an ultra busy turn. Back ASAP.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Alex S View Post

                            In the Shema, Lord describes God. In Paul's Shema adaptation, Lord is used of Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.

                            In Isaiah, God says every knee will bow to God. Paul says every knee will bow to Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.

                            In Genesis, God created the universe. In John, Jesus created the universe. Conclusion: John thinks Jesus is God.

                            It seems pretty clear from the Bible that the Early Church thought Jesus was God.

                            ~~~

                            However all that is irrelevant to the argument I'm making, so this tangent has a limited future length.

                            My argument, from the beginning, is that the Early Church believed that Jesus was God because He did things that God had said He would do. God said in the OT that He'll save mankind, return to Israel, invite the world to join in His blessing, and establish His Kingdom. The Early Church realised that Jesus had done these things, things God said (in the OT) he would do, and so Jesus clearly had to be an active part of God.

                            Hello. Could you elaborate on the following when you get a chance?

                            1) What exactly are you refering to when you say Early Church? Are you refering to the Disciples , Paul and the believers? Or are you including the Christians after them , with all their differences?

                            2) Can you bring the specific proofs which suggest that God(Yahweh) will "Save mankind , return to Israel , invite the world to join his blessing , and establish his Kingdom"

                            These qualities are the expected qualities of the Jewish Messiah. If Jesus would have literally ascended as the King of Jews , then he would have ruled by Gods Law from Israel , similar to King David. All nations would submit to the God of Israel.

                            So are you claiming that the Messiah was expected to be Yahweh or have I misunderstood you?
                            Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 03-02-18, 04:29 PM.

                            Comment



                              Originally posted by Alex S View Post

                              In the Shema, Lord describes God. In Paul's Shema adaptation, Lord is used of Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.

                              In Isaiah, God says every knee will bow to God. Paul says every knee will bow to Jesus. Conclusion: Paul thinks Jesus is God.

                              In Genesis, God created the universe. In John, Jesus created the universe. Conclusion: John thinks Jesus is God.

                              I'd just like to share my view. Personally, I do not believe that Paul viewed Jesus as Fully God. From my reading , I would say that he did view Jesus as 'god' / 'divine' , but not in the absolute sense , as he views The Father.

                              Paul asserts that Jesus is;
                              1) The Lord
                              2) Son of God
                              3) Existed before our creation
                              4) Has Power over us
                              5) Was created in Gods image.
                              6) Ascribes reverence to him

                              Despite all these , I believe he differntiates between God; The Father , and The Lord; Christ Jesus - in ways which are quite explicit.

                              4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8)

                              This passage clearly states that there is only One God; The Father - just after proclaiming that there is no God but One. Suggesting that Paul is also affirming Jesus as Fully God would be blatant polytheism. That would imply that there are Two Gods , which he himself denied within the same passage.


                              Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.(1 Timothy 1:17)

                              In this passage Paul lays out the core concept of The Only God; Eternal ,Immortal , Invisibile.



                              And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (Colossians 1:15)

                              This passage claims that The Son was the Firstborn of all Creation. Paul believed Jesus was Created , therefore he did not believe he was Fully God.



                              [Also Paul and John did not believe that Jesus was "The Creator" as you have suggested throughout your posts. Rather , they believe that all things were created through him , by God The Father. There is a notable difference between the two]

                              For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him (colossions 1.16)

                              Keyword: Created Through him.


                              “IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. HE WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE.” [John 1:1-3]

                              Keyword : Made through him.

                              YET FOR US THERE IS ONE GOD, THE FATHER, FROM WHOM ARE ALL THINGS AND FOR WHOM WE EXIST, AND ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, THROUGH WHOM ARE ALL THINGS AND THROUGH WHOM WE EXIST.” [1 Corrinthians 8:6]

                              Keywords : :"From" refering to God - "Through" refering to Jesus.

                              IN THESE LAST DAYS HE HAS SPOKEN TO US BY HIS SON, WHOM HE APPOINTED HEIR OF ALL THINGS, AND THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE UNIVERSE. [Hebrews 1:2]

                              Keywords : Through whom(Jesus) - also He(The Father) made the universe.

                              It is clear that neither Paul nor John believed Jesus was "The Divine Creator of the Universe." God created the universe through Jesus , and for Jesus.

                              --------

                              All in all , the distinction is rather clear. The Father is always refered to as "God" in his writings. As for his understanding of; Jesus being Lord, having powers over the creation , etc. I do consider that problematic on various grounds. Nevertheless , he calls The Father; The One God , and believes Christ Jesus was created and an inferior entity; therefore Paul did not believe that Jesus was The King Eternal , Invisible , Immortal , Only True God [1 Timothy 1:17]
                              Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 04-02-18, 11:40 AM.

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