Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • olrac
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by candyapple View Post
    Lol yeh I got the spelling wrong hehe... I did for gcse :)
    I had a German grandmother - she taught me German. There is an amazing literature in German (my favourite : Franz Kafka)

    Leave a comment:


  • olrac
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    hello talibilm

    I'll try to answer your questions - in a very concise manner. Excuse therefore my historical shortcuts. What follows is a hatchet job.
    Originally posted by talibilm09 View Post
    So why did Greeks followed Claudius Ptolemy's theory untill 9th century , confused themselves. confused the Christians who sadly believed him distorted their books to the wrong Geocentric theory thinking that it was true & scientific just to make the holy book appear more scientific And imprisoned Sir Galileo{ who supported the correct Heliocentric Theory} to Suppress the fact that they had copied from the Greeks, which was a 100% erroneous Theory )
    why did the ancient Greeks follow the geocentric model (Ptolemy) instead of the heliocentric model (Aristarchus) ? well, most surely not because they wanted to support the Bible - in the 3rd century BC there were no Christians in Greece (and anywhere else, for that matter) and the Jews did not exert any particular influence on classical Greek culture - not until Hellenistic times, at least - and then more so in centers such as Alexandria, Antioch, Cyrene etc than in Greece proper.

    As to the "Sir Galileo" controversy (Sir ? he wasn't a baronet, as far as I know), it took place when the heliocentric theory had already been hotly contested (by Copernicus, Kepler). Galileo however had the misfortune of living in Italy, where the Catholic Church wielded a very strong power, and still stuck to Aristotelian science (as reinterpreted by Thomas Aquinas). It is however not historically correct to speak of "Christianity" as if there ever was some sort of united Christian authority or political/cultural programme. By Galileo's time, not only were Western and Eastern Chritianity at odds with each other, but Protestant Churches of all shapes and sizes were flourishing, most of them much more open to scentific research and modernity

    Originally posted by talibilm09 View Post
    So why they did not follow Aristarchus of Samos 's correct correct Heliocentric Theory ?
    who knows ? my guess would be that the geocentric theory prevailed because the proof given by Aristarchus for heliocentrism was not considered as sound enough - and, most surely, Aristotle's influence played a huge role. In fact, Aristotle's authority on scientic matters was not contested in Europe until the Renaissance - and Aristotle had supported geocentrism
    Originally posted by talibilm09 View Post
    There are many history books (from Greek etc) saying Prophet Muhammad(saw) did not exit or Mecca did not exist .(lol) so do you believe them well ?
    it's rather like the opposite. We have some Greek texts from the first century hijra which are actually the first written records about Muhammad (including some fragments apparently written within 10 years of Muhammad's death). These Greek (but also Coptic, Armenian, Syriac texts) pre-date the oldest hadith collections and sirahs by quite a few decades.

    The theory that Muhammad never existed, and that Islam did not develop in Mecca, is a rather recent development, and has nothing to do with Greeks. If you are interested, you could google the names of some University Professors who have popularised this theory (Wansbrough, Crone, Cook, Puin, Ohlig, Nevo etc); it was developed, mostly, after 1975 at SOAS (London) and University of Saarbrucken (Germany)
    Originally posted by talibilm09 View Post
    liars. they can create any history ant time and destroy history as well. I ve written a post about 'Distorted history' answering to Panthere tigiris with VERY CLEAR PROOF how anti muslims create or destroy records.
    the non-existence of Muhammad theory has not become mainstream. It remains a minority view. I am not aware however of any book fabricated by them. It is, by now, very difficult to popularise an outright forgery of an ancient text in academia - at best, you can try to distort interpretations, but that's a different story
    Originally posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Ibn sabah , the founder of Shia a hypocrite Jew is one of many examples of duplication of records to divide Muslim ummah. A great muslim commented ' we have won many wars against the book of the scripture (jews & christ) but never could win a war with them , thats the war of TREACHERY ''
    interesting. I'll have a look at this Ibn Sabah guy

    thank you for your post

    Leave a comment:


  • talibilm09
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by olrac View Post
    e.g. Galen's medicine manuals and Erathostenes' calculations about the spherical Earth's dimensions etc have been available for centuries.

    In fact, Galen's manuals circulated widely in the Middle East (they were translated first into Syriac, then into Arabic - mostly by Nestorian Christians - and then into Latin).

    What is this story about "duplication of records" ? any more precise information about that ?
    So why did Greeks followed Claudius Ptolemy's theory untill 9th century , confused themselves. confused the Christians who sadly believed him distorted their books to the wrong Geocentric theory thinking that it was true & scientific just to make the holy book appear more scientific And imprisoned Sir Galileo{ who supported the correct Heliocentric Theory} to Suppress the fact that they had copied from the Greeks, which was a 100% erroneous Theory )

    So why they did not follow Aristarchus of Samos 's correct correct Heliocentric Theory ?

    Its like saying we had a car running on Petrol during 200 BC but we used only the Bullock cart untill the 900 AD . lol

    Originally posted by olrac View Post
    What is this story about "duplication of records" ? any more precise information about that ?
    There are many history books (from Greek etc) saying Prophet Muhammad(saw) did not exit or Mecca did not exist .(lol) so do you believe them well ? liars. they can create any history ant time and destroy history as well. I ve written a post about 'Distorted history' answering to Panthere tigiris with VERY CLEAR PROOF how anti muslims create or destroy records. Ibn sabah , the founder of Shia a hypocrite Jew is one of many examples of duplication of records to divide Muslim ummah. A great muslim commented ' we have won many wars against the book of the scripture (jews & christ) but never could win a war with them , thats the war of TREACHERY ''

    Leave a comment:


  • candyapple
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by olrac View Post
    well, "vorne" means "in front"

    most likely, you meant "Ich wohne" ( I live). You're studying German ?
    Lol yeh I got the spelling wrong hehe... I did for gcse :)

    Leave a comment:


  • candyapple
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by olrac View Post
    I basically agree. This idea of God speaking to us in Arabic contradicts the universality of religious message.

    Actually, the Quran is transmitted in several slightly different "recitations", which accommodate for dialectal variants of Arabic (seven+three "qiraat", each in two "riwayat" - transmissions ; making for a total of 20 slightly different texts)

    It would have been much more logical, instead of accommodating 20 slightly different brands of Arabic, to transmit also in Greek, Latin, Coptic, Chinese, Hindi, Maya, Nahuatl etc etc; better still, in all languages and dialects.

    How is the truth to "clearly stand out from error", if we don't have access to the "authentic" message ?
    Put in the effort to learn. One of the miracles of Quran is its easy to grasp.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vishnu
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by olrac View Post
    I basically agree. This idea of God speaking to us in Arabic contradicts the universality of religious message.

    Actually, the Quran is transmitted in several slightly different "recitations", which accommodate for dialectal variants of Arabic (seven+three "qiraat", each in two "riwayat" - transmissions ; making for a total of 20 slightly different texts)

    It would have been much more logical, instead of accommodating 20 slightly different brands of Arabic, to transmit also in Greek, Latin, Coptic, Chinese, Hindi, Maya, Nahuatl etc etc; better still, in all languages and dialects.

    How is the truth to "clearly stand out from error", if we don't have access to the "authentic" message ?
    Actually the foreignness of Arabic gives it an aura of "language of Allah"

    Many Muslims of other nations are eager to learn Arabic and take it a matter of pride in reciting Quran

    Muslims in general don't prefer translations, even those who are newly converting

    Leave a comment:


  • olrac
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
    At some point you have to say that the Quran must be capable of being understood properly in other languages or something is very wrong.
    I basically agree. This idea of God speaking to us in Arabic contradicts the universality of religious message.

    Actually, the Quran is transmitted in several slightly different "recitations", which accommodate for dialectal variants of Arabic (seven+three "qiraat", each in two "riwayat" - transmissions ; making for a total of 20 slightly different texts)

    It would have been much more logical, instead of accommodating 20 slightly different brands of Arabic, to transmit also in Greek, Latin, Coptic, Chinese, Hindi, Maya, Nahuatl etc etc; better still, in all languages and dialects.

    How is the truth to "clearly stand out from error", if we don't have access to the "authentic" message ?

    Leave a comment:


  • olrac
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by candyapple View Post
    Ich vorne in England, nicht deuchland ... did I get that right :D
    well, "vorne" means "in front"

    most likely, you meant "Ich wohne" ( I live). You're studying German ?

    Leave a comment:


  • olrac
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by candyapple View Post
    Ur pdf is sooooo long and I wouldnt understand things like that... I have an esfp personality... it means I thrive on facts and not generally interested in boring inconclusive work that has no point or purpose as far as im concerned... not to be rude, sorry.
    well, getting into the details of any issue is not "boring inconclusive work", especially when comparing conflicting viewpoints

    Aristarchus's achievements could most surely be qualified as "miraculous", if we use the same criteria by which we judge the "scientific miracles" contained in the Quran. Same for Erathostenes, Galen, the Mayan and Babylonian astronomers etc

    they all discovered, calculated, predicted ... things that would be confirmed centuries later

    of course, if we wanted to actually check this, we would have to learn ancient Greek, the Mayan gliphs, Assyro-Babilonian languages - so that we can actually check translations - and then we would have to exclude manipulations, forgeries, "kuffar conspiracies" etc etc

    in other words, not even several lifetimes would be enough to obtain absolute certainty

    Leave a comment:


  • candyapple
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by olrac View Post
    Aber sicher, beste Freundin. Das habe Ich auch bemerkt
    (of course, dear friend. I also noticed that))
    Ich vorne in England, nicht deuchland ... did I get that right :D

    Leave a comment:


  • olrac
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by candyapple View Post
    Btw ur link is in deutsch?
    Aber sicher, beste Freundin. Das habe Ich auch bemerkt
    (of course, dear friend. I also noticed that))

    Leave a comment:


  • ExNihilo
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by candyapple View Post
    You're right I dont mean it like that... quran is for everyone not just the arabs... u know I was joking.. but sorry if I hurt ur feelings.
    No worries :)

    Leave a comment:


  • candyapple
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
    I know you don't mean it like this but it feels as if there is always another hurdle to jump for a non Muslim to be allowed to comment on Islam. The guy is learning Arabic - impressive - but now you want him to learn it in the east. Even if he does that, you could still say it's not the same as being a native speaker growing up with the language.

    At some point you have to say that the Quran must be capable of being understood properly in other languages or something is very wrong.
    You're right I dont mean it like that... quran is for everyone not just the arabs... u know I was joking.. but sorry if I hurt ur feelings.

    Leave a comment:


  • candyapple
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by olrac View Post
    now, for an ancient Greek "miracle" : Aristarchus of Samos, in the 3rd century BC proposes the heliocentric theory, correctly places the Earth and planets in their orbits and attempts (with some success) to calculate size and distance of the Sun and the Moon http://ia600200.us.archive.org/12/it...00heatuoft.pdf
    Ur pdf is sooooo long and I wouldnt understand things like that... I have an esfp personality... it means I thrive on facts and not generally interested in boring inconclusive work that has no point or purpose as far as im concerned... not to be rude, sorry.

    Leave a comment:


  • ExNihilo
    replied
    Re: Why doesn't God deliver the same revelation of Himself to all nations?

    Originally posted by candyapple View Post
    mmhmmm... u need to travel east and learn arabic from a native speaker ;)
    I know you don't mean it like this but it feels as if there is always another hurdle to jump for a non Muslim to be allowed to comment on Islam. The guy is learning Arabic - impressive - but now you want him to learn it in the east. Even if he does that, you could still say it's not the same as being a native speaker growing up with the language.

    At some point you have to say that the Quran must be capable of being understood properly in other languages or something is very wrong.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X