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  • #76
    Re: Eternal Punishment

    Originally posted by Shaolin's-Finest View Post
    He is Al Raheem but he is not limited to just that attribute. He harmonises between his attributes but his mercy is quicker than his wrath. For example, you disbelieve in him but he still feeds you, provides for you, sustains you and so on. Would a mother do that to her child ? She may well the first few times but eventually she will give up.
    He doesn't sustain me, there is no reason for me to believe that. I don't believe in God giving us food because if He did, then there would be no starving people in the world. God is giving me food but he isn't giving thousands of people any food? If God is the one who gives us food yet doesn't, then something is not right here.
    And a mother would never put her child in eternal hell no matter how much her child disrepects her or rejects her as his mother. And God loves us 70 times as much as our mothers?

    Al Rahmaan is 'The Compassionate'. Al Rahmaan does things which appear cruel but in essense are pure mercy. So for example, when you go to a hospital although some of the things the doctors do appear creul they are infact doing it for the GOOD of the individual.
    How is eternal hell good for us?

    Al Rahmeen is just pure mercy. The mistake you are making here is thinking that Allah is only merciful and hence wouldn't do 'cruel' things. If this is the case then he is not a God fullstop because creation has BOTH good and apparently bad in it. Look at it like this, you as a human are merciful and you are also kind, generous and so on. If I said TaraC is JUST merciful and nothing else then it wouldn't make any sense.
    I got this point in your previous post where you said he has different attributes not just mercy. So do you think Allah also has cruel attributes? You gave the example of doctors performing cruel/painful procedures to save ones life. However, how is the eternal Hell saving us or doing us any good?

    I don't know, it appears so at the moment but it may simply be that Allah is guiding you. I don't really know. We've had members on this board who left Islam and then returned to it later when they learnt more about it. I think your problem is you are focusing too much on the law aspect and not looking at/learning about the one who sent it.
    I am not focusing only on the law aspect but religion as a whole. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: Eternal Punishment

      Originally posted by TaraC View Post
      He doesn't sustain me, there is no reason for me to believe that. I don't believe in God giving us food because if He did, then there would be no starving people in the world. God is giving me food but he isn't giving thousands of people any food? If God is the one who gives us food yet doesn't, then something is not right here.
      Its like saying if there were hospitals no one would become ill, but people do become ill. Now if I take your logic then I see no reason to believe in hospitals/doctors etc. Do you see the mistake your making ?

      And a mother would never put her child in eternal hell no matter how much her child disrepects her or rejects her as his mother. And God loves us 70 times as much as our mothers?
      Allah created hell and its people and he created heaven and its people. Heaven is a place for people of belief/faith, it cannot contain any form of kufr and vice virsa.

      I got this point in your previous post where you said he has different attributes not just mercy. So do you think Allah also has cruel attributes? You gave the example of doctors performing cruel/painful procedures to save ones life. However, how is the eternal Hell saving us or doing us any good?
      The cruel/pain analogy is applicable in this world. This world has manifestations from both heaven and hell. So you have gardens/green etc and then fire/lava etc. In the next world the manfestations will be one or the other to a much higher. Your abode will be the one you were inclined to in this world.

      I am not focusing only on the law aspect but religion as a whole. It just doesn't make any sense to me.
      Most of your posts have been about womens rights, polygamy, apostates etc. If that isn't law then I dont know what is.
      Please Re-update your Signature

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      • #78
        Re: Eternal Punishment

        Originally posted by Shaolin's-Finest View Post
        Its like saying if there were hospitals no one would become ill, but people do become ill. Now if I take your logic then I see no reason to believe in hospitals/doctors etc. Do you see the mistake your making ?
        Thats because doctors are unable to heal everyone. Is God unable too?

        Allah created hell and its people and he created heaven and its people. Heaven is a place for people of belief/faith, it cannot contain any form of kufr and vice virsa.
        You are right. Kufr means rejecting Allah as one, right? Why do people reject Him? Is it because He has sealed their hearts?
        I see no evidence of Him. Whenever I ask this infront of any theist, they alway say "if God were to appear, then there would be no test".
        So He knows that many people will not believe unless they have some evidence, yet He remains hidden?

        Most of your posts have been about womens rights, polygamy, apostates etc. If that isn't law then I dont know what is.
        Yes, I don't agree with those laws either. First I started doubting the laws, and then the lawmaker.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Eternal Punishment

          Originally posted by Shaolin's-Finest View Post
          You are confusing actions with states. Every action is by niyaah(intention). If I intend to do something good but I do it for the pleasure of someone else then my reward is the pleasure of that person. IF I intend to do the deed for Allah's pleasure then Allah will reward me. See the difference ? With regards to hell, a kaafir doesn't go to hell forever because he didnt do good deeds, he will be in hell forever because of his kufr/belief. For a muslim hell is a place of purification, for a kaafir it is a home.
          I don't understand how a person who was born in a non-muslim family household is at fault? Its not the persons fault their parents were atheists or followed another religion and then that was embedded in their head since childhood?

          Yes, Allah swt guides who he wills. But out of the all the non-muslims out there, its hard for me to believe some of them are/were not good enough to be guided ex being mother teresa as someone mentioned.


          I get a bit lost here :(

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Eternal Punishment

            Originally posted by TaraC View Post
            Thats because doctors are unable to heal everyone. Is God unable too?
            How would he be the 'healer' if there was nothing to heal ? Infact, it isn't even the doctors who are healing, it is Allah who is healing through the doctors, the doctors are simply a surah(image)/excuse through which he heals.
            BTW, even illness is a mercy, its Rahmaanic. Any pain/distress/difficulty a muslim goes through will result in a sin being forgiven OR being raised a station in heaven. This is infinately more merciful than leaving the purication to the next world which will be MUCH MUCH worse. Incidiently THIS is exactly why some of the punishments in Islam are as they are. Not only are they a deterrent but IF the individual is 'purified' in this world he will not have to face the consquences of the sin in the next world. Compare that to the many people who think they are 'barbaric', not only are they not adminstering mercy, they are making their situation worse for the next life. This is expected since they do not possess infinate mercy/wisdom/knowledge etc The truth is everything for the muslim is good for him, the good and the 'apparent bad'. Al Hamdulillah.

            You are right. Kufr means rejecting Allah as one, right? Why do people reject Him? Is it because He has sealed their hearts?
            I see no evidence of Him. Whenever I ask this infront of any theist, they alway say "if God were to appear, then there would be no test".
            So He knows that many people will not believe unless they have some evidence, yet He remains hidden?
            Kufr is being veiled/concealed from Allah. There are different levels of kufr, the greatest form of kufr is being vieled from Allah.

            NOW, to address your second question, you see no 'evidience' of him so you don't believe in him. The problem with atheists today is they want to SEE something that can only be experienced. E.g. how would someone with no tongue describe the taste of honey to you ? How would a blind man describe a tree to you ? Laysa Ka Mithlihi shay (There is nothing to HIS likeness). If you can picture it then its not him. Allah is not like a material you can feel/see etc He is above that. He cannot be 'comprehended', he is only knowable through his attributes. So when we seek sustainance it is Allah in his capacity as Al Razzaq (The Provider) that is giving us our sustenance, our sight is from Al Baseer (The Seer), our knowledge is from Al Aleem (The knower) and so on. This is the only way you can know him. Infact the whole purpose of this existence is to experience/know/learn about him via his attributes/manifestations. Our purpose in this life is to see/recongise that tawheed - This was the condition he set for us before we came here BTW.

            I see no evidence of Him.
            In light of the above, creation is a sign of a creator no ? Have you ever wondered over the 'constants' of the universe ? Light always travels at 186,000m/s, sound at 250m/s, planets are always circular, gravity always pulls, suns always emitt heat, stars/planets etc always have a set formation process and so on. These are constants which our sciences are built on, they will never change, they work as is ALL the time. Are you really telling me this order came out of nothing ?
            Last edited by Shaolin's-Finest; 05-01-10, 11:00 PM.
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            • #81
              Re: Eternal Punishment

              Originally posted by Divine Serenity View Post
              I don't understand how a person who was born in a non-muslim family household is at fault? Its not the persons fault their parents were atheists or followed another religion and then that was embedded in their head since childhood?

              Yes, Allah swt guides who he wills. But out of the all the non-muslims out there, its hard for me to believe some of them are/were not good enough to be guided ex being mother teresa as someone mentioned.


              I get a bit lost here :(
              Salaam Utkhi,

              You answered your own question, it is Allah who guides. If he wants guidance for an individual he will create the means for it, if he doesn't then he will create the means for it. Regarding mother teresa, no one knows her fate, you will only find out on judgement day. BTW, Allah will only put you through things according to your capicaty, this is exactly what is meant by 002.286 (Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope).
              Also, it is important to note that doing good deeds doesn't mean the person should go to heaven. If you cannot get your head around this point then look at it like this: Imagine your husband brought you some flowers, you would probably be thankful. Now, what IF he said I brought it for another lady but since she wasnt in I am giving it to you, you will probably feel gutted and not accept the flowers. The problem here is the inner state was not as 'pure' as the outer so you rejected his deed altogether even though it 'appeared good'.

              If you want to go alitte deeper then this world demands both believers and non-believers otherwise the verses in Al Quraan addressing the non-muslims will not longer be applicable.
              Please Re-update your Signature

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              • #82
                Re: Eternal Punishment

                Originally posted by Shaolin's-Finest View Post
                How would he be the 'healer' if there was nothing to heal ? Infact, it isn't even the doctors who are healing, it is Allah who is healing through the doctors, the doctors are simply a surah(image)/excuse through which he heals.
                So the pain and suffering is also because of God. Using your logic, a murderer doesn't muder, he's simply an image/excuse through he which he kills?

                BTW, even illness is a mercy, its Rahmaanic. Any pain/distress/difficulty a muslim goes through will result in a sin being forgiven OR being raised a station in heaven. This is infinately more merciful than leaving the purication to the next world which will be MUCH MUCH worse. Incidiently THIS is exactly why some of the punishments in Islam are as they are. Not only are they a deterrent but IF the individual is 'purified' in this world he will not have to face the consquences of the sin in the next world.
                Thats a positive outlook I must say, unfortunatley doesn't prove anything other than the fact that maybe people believe in such things in hopes of getting rewards for their pain later on. We don't wish to accept unfairness and injustice in this world so our only hope is that this suffering will bring joy later on.

                Kufr is being veiled/concealed from Allah. There are different levels of kufr, the greatest form of kufr is being vieled from Allah.
                Yes I understand that.

                NOW, to address your second question, you see no 'evidience' of him so you don't believe in him. The problem with atheists today is they want to SEE something that can only be experienced. E.g. how would someone with no tongue describe the taste of honey to you ? How would a blind man describe a tree to you ? Laysa Ka Mithlihi shay (There is nothing to HIS likeness). If you can picture it then its not him. Allah is not like a material you can feel/see etc He is above that. He cannot be 'comprehended', he is only knowable through his attributes.
                If I don't feel or comprehend Him, then how can I believe in Him?

                So when we seek sustainance it is Allah in his capacity as Al Razzaq (The Provider) that is giving us our sustenance, our sight is from Al Baseer (The Seer), our knowledge is from Al Aleem (The knower) and so on. This is the only way you can know him. Infact the whole purpose of this existence is to experience/know/learn about him via his attributes/manifestations. Our purpose in this life is to see/recongise that tawheed - This was the condition he set for us before we came here BTW.
                I don't see him as the provider. I earn, I buy things for myself or my parents do. Some people don't have money, don't have food, and are starving. So I don't see God giving anyone anything. He gives rizq to some but not to all so the ones who are starving are actually benefitting later on?
                Why put anyone through this misery when He could just put us all in Heaven instead of sending us to Earth. I sincerely hope it wasn't just because Adam ate the forbidden apple, like many theists claim. Billions and billions of humans sent to earth because of "testing" purpose? What kind of experiment is this?

                In light of the above, creation is a sign of a creator no ? Have you ever wondered over the 'constants' of the universe ? Light always travels at 186,000m/s, sound at 250m/s, planets are always circular, gravity always pulls, suns always emitt heat, stars/planets etc always have a set formation process and so on. These are constants which our sciences are built on, they will never change, they work as is ALL the time. Are you really telling me this order came out of nothing ?
                Yes, and we keep figuring out things like gravity, light, stars as we progress in science. Either God created the universe and He always existed, or the universe itself always existed. Something has always existed in order to avoid the problem of creating something out of nothing.
                The choice of believing in a God depends on faith. If someone can accept that God could have always existed then why not the universe?

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                • #83
                  Re: Eternal Punishment

                  Originally posted by Shaolin's-Finest View Post
                  Salaam Utkhi,

                  You answered your own question, it is Allah who guides. If he wants guidance for an individual he will create the means for it, if he doesn't then he will create the means for it. Regarding mother teresa, no one knows her fate, you will only find out on judgement day. BTW, Allah will only put you through things according to your capicaty, this is exactly what is meant by 002.286 (Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope).
                  Also, it is important to note that doing good deeds doesn't mean the person should go to heaven. If you cannot get your head around this point then look at it like this: Imagine your husband brought you some flowers, you would probably be thankful. Now, what IF he said I brought it for another lady but since she wasnt in I am giving it to you, you will probably feel gutted and not accept the flowers. The problem here is the inner state was not as 'pure' as the outer so you rejected his deed altogether even though it 'appeared good'.

                  If you want to go alitte deeper then this world demands both believers and non-believers otherwise the verses in Al Quraan addressing the non-muslims will not longer be applicable.
                  wasalaams bro ..

                  yes, the bold part is so obvious. non-believers so bring a whole host of temptations/questions, testing us to a whole new level ... :up:

                  I guess it saddens me to see so many non-believers who are good ppl, or at least what I know of them.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Eternal Punishment

                    Originally posted by Divine Serenity View Post
                    I don't understand how a person who was born in a non-muslim family household is at fault? Its not the persons fault their parents were atheists or followed another religion and then that was embedded in their head since childhood?

                    Yes, Allah swt guides who he wills. But out of the all the non-muslims out there, its hard for me to believe some of them are/were not good enough to be guided ex being mother teresa as someone mentioned.


                    I get a bit lost here :(
                    This is something that used to bother me alot back when I used to believe in religion. I used to wonder why thousands of babies are born each day to non-muslims. How many people revert to Islam out of the billion non-muslims?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Eternal Punishment

                      Originally posted by TaraC View Post
                      This is something that used to bother me alot back when I used to believe in religion. I used to wonder why thousands of babies are born each day to non-muslims. How many people revert to Islam out of the billion non-muslims?
                      It bothers me sister, for I have a small heart ... but I also have been fortunate enough that Allah swt has bestowed upon me with small miracles that help keep my faith. I have no doubts. :)

                      Its all about keeping an open mind, heart and soul to the everyday events that happen around you ... insha'allah you too will start to see the miracles again. I will continue to make dua :up:

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                      • #86
                        Re: Eternal Punishment

                        Originally posted by Divine Serenity View Post
                        It bothers me sister, for I have a small heart ... but I also have been fortunate enough that Allah swt has bestowed upon me with small miracles that help keep my faith. I have no doubts. :)

                        Its all about keeping an open mind, heart and soul to the everyday events that happen around you ... insha'allah you too will start to see the miracles again. I will continue to make dua :up:
                        Yes, it's all about keeping an open mind. We all need to empty our cups every once in a while..
                        :1peace:

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Eternal Punishment

                          Allah provides a fair test to everyone regardless of were they are in this world. He would not send someone to hell unless he had a very, very, very good reason! Afterall he has already shown he is Merciful, Patient by giving peope plenty of time to repent! Not even the angels would even have chosen to allow people to have more time to repent. Even people don't seem to realise how much they have received.

                          -they are aware of natural diasters that have occurred in this world,
                          -they are siding with indecent people rather then decent ones
                          -they have chosen to go against a woman's dress code rather then mini-skirts
                          -they have chosen a lifestyle to be drunk-as opposed to mentally and physically being better
                          -they consume so much food in the West that they don't give thanks to Allah

                          These people choose to reject Islam, because they want to enjoy living in this world-and was it that they are holding on to?? This world is so limited. Even the UK streets for example are not hygenic, there is so much litter that is thrown around and people even have vomited over them-but the disbelievers still choose this world over the next world were paradise is a clean, hygenic environment.

                          So its a no brainer test, choice for anyone! They are choosing;-

                          -dirt over cleanliness
                          -lewd over indeceny
                          -bad manners over good manners

                          How could they possibly make a big deal of living in this world when it is not a good environment at all! People are selfish so much that they don't care much for other people, or even their elderly parents. They only care about themselves and what they want.

                          People seem to be referring to unbelievers as if they don't know anything, or have received anything from Allah, well they have! Allah always provides a fair test so when they stand on the Day of Judgement they are not going to say that they have been wronged-even in the Quran it says that they have wronged themselves!
                          "Allah! There is no god but He - the Living, The Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him Nor Sleep. His are all things In the heavens and on earth." Quran , Surah Baqarah 2:255

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                          • #88
                            Re: Eternal Punishment

                            Originally posted by TaraC View Post
                            So the pain and suffering is also because of God. Using your logic, a murderer doesn't muder, he's simply an image/excuse through he which he kills?
                            Pain/suffering had to come from somewhere no ? Sometimes pain is good - For example, when a mother scolds her child she is doing it for his own good. Its how you percieve that pain which makes the difference.
                            Allah is Al Mumeet (The giver of death), he causes you to die, the incident is simply an excuse/reason for him to take your soul. As for the murderer, his niyaah is what makes the action good or bad. If he killed an individual because that person was about to kill 100s of innocent people then that is a GOOD act, whereas if he did it out of jealousy/greed then it is an evil act. He will be judged according to his intention.


                            Thats a positive outlook I must say, unfortunatley doesn't prove anything other than the fact that maybe people believe in such things in hopes of getting rewards for their pain later on. We don't wish to accept unfairness and injustice in this world so our only hope is that this suffering will bring joy later on.
                            Its pure mercy TaraC. It doesn't need to prove anything, but it explains many things. Administering mercy/justice doesn't mean it is pain-free, much of the time it isnt. The west made this mistake and now they are paying a very big price for it.

                            If I don't feel or comprehend Him, then how can I believe in Him?
                            Allah cannot be comprehended with the mind. The mind is limited to the apparant world, if it cannot comprehend the billions of stars in the universe how is it going to comprehend the one who created it ? Laysa ka mithlihi shay, there is nothing to his likeness. Nothing can comprehend Allah. however, rubbuka (Your Lord) is your understanding/comprehension of Allah.
                            The source of comprehension/revelation etc of Your Lord is via Al Qalb (The heart/inside). This is why Allah says in the Quraan 'we revealed it on your QALB' and not your AQL(intellect). This is also why Allah only seals your qalb and not your aql because al qalb is where your guidance comes from.


                            I don't see him as the provider. I earn, I buy things for myself or my parents do. Some people don't have money, don't have food, and are starving. So I don't see God giving anyone anything. He gives rizq to some but not to all so the ones who are starving are actually benefitting later on?
                            I hope you dont think a hand extends out from the sky and drops some food on your plate because that is exactly what I am NOT saying. You are the earner but it is Allah who is causing you to earn the money. He has given you the power/strength to go out there, work, he causes crops to grow which will eventually end up on your plate. You buy them with the money he bestowed upon you via your employer. Take a look at a verse from the Quraan which will help you understand this concept:

                            035.009 - وَٱللَّهُ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَرۡسَلَ ٱلرِّيَـٰحَ فَتُثِيرُ سَحَابً۬ا فَسُقۡنَـٰهُ إِلَىٰ بَلَدٍ۬ مَّيِّتٍ۬ فَأَحۡيَيۡنَا بِهِ ٱلۡأَرۡضَ بَعۡدَ مَوۡتِہَاۚ كَذَٲلِكَ ٱلنُّشُورُ
                            035.009 -
                            And Allah it is Who sendeth the winds and they raise a cloud; then We lead it unto a dead land and revive therewith the earth after its death. Such is the Resurrection

                            Now, a kaafir when he sees the clouds, rain, growth of crops etc He thinks its 'nature' who does all of that and that is true. But Allah is increasing our state of awareness by telling us the REAL one doing ALL of that is Allah. What you and I see is nature but the one behind the image/veil is Allah and he is the doer.

                            Why put anyone through this misery when He could just put us all in Heaven instead of sending us to Earth. I sincerely hope it wasn't just because Adam ate the forbidden apple, like many theists claim. Billions and billions of humans sent to earth because of "testing" purpose? What kind of experiment is this?
                            That is a good question. First of all, Allah doesn't need to test any of us. A test implies finding the results of something which is unknown and that cannot be attributed to Allah.
                            Second, why didn't he put us in heaven and instead send us done to earth ? Because we were in a state of zhulumaat(darkness)/dead and we wanted to be known so he brought us out of that darkness into the light of being known. Basically, there are stages of existance. You have (1) existing, (2) creating and (3) realising/existing in this world. We were in the second phase. So Allah offers us a trust to be his kulaafaa (caliphates/inheritors etc) in THIS world and we undertake it:

                            033.072 - إِنَّا عَرَضۡنَا ٱلۡأَمَانَةَ عَلَى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ وَٱلۡجِبَالِ فَأَبَيۡنَ أَن يَحۡمِلۡنَہَا وَأَشۡفَقۡنَ مِنۡہَا وَحَمَلَهَا ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنُۖ إِنَّهُ ۥ كَانَ ظَلُومً۬ا جَهُولاً۬
                            033.072 -
                            Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.

                            This all happened before we came here. Allah gives US the trust, and before sending us down asks us AAlastu bi Rabbikum (Am I not your Lord?), we testify and then we are sent down.

                            007.172 - وَإِذۡ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنۢ بَنِىٓ ءَادَمَ مِن ظُهُورِهِمۡ ذُرِّيَّتَہُمۡ وَأَشۡہَدَهُمۡ عَلَىٰٓ أَنفُسِہِمۡ أَلَسۡتُ بِرَبِّكُمۡ*ۖ قَالُواْ بَلَىٰ*ۛ شَهِدۡنَآ*ۛ أَن تَقُولُواْ يَوۡمَ ٱلۡقِيَـٰمَةِ إِنَّا ڪُنَّا عَنۡ هَـٰذَا غَـٰفِلِينَ
                            007.172 -
                            And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their reins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, (saying): Am I not your Lord? They said: Yea, verily. We testify. (That was) lest ye should say at the Day of Resurrection: Lo! of this we were unaware

                            Adam eating from the tree happened here on earth whilst he was in a parasidical state. As soon as they sinned Allah removed them out of their parasidical state.

                            Yes, and we keep figuring out things like gravity, light, stars as we progress in science. Either God created the universe and He always existed, or the universe itself always existed. Something has always existed in order to avoid the problem of creating something out of nothing.
                            The choice of believing in a God depends on faith. If someone can accept that God could have always existed then why not the universe?
                            No reputable scientist on this planet believes the universe is eternal. It is consensus that the universe started with a big bang and has been expanding ever since. The million dollar question is what instigated that bang. The M theory speculates we have many other universes/dimensions and some of them collided creating our universe. But it goes back to the same question, where did they come from ? I say creation demands a creator, just as fire demands heat. You cannot take one and leave the other. Anyway, whats interesting is in Al Quraan there are seven heavens/universes, and there ARE also other dimensions other than the dimension we are in.
                            Last edited by Shaolin's-Finest; 06-01-10, 02:14 AM.
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                            • #89
                              Re: Eternal Punishment

                              Originally posted by Shaolin's-Finest View Post
                              Salaam Utkhi,

                              You answered your own question, it is Allah who guides. If he wants guidance for an individual he will create the means for it, if he doesn't then he will create the means for it. Regarding mother teresa, no one knows her fate, you will only find out on judgement day. BTW, Allah will only put you through things according to your capicaty, this is exactly what is meant by 002.286 (Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope).
                              Also, it is important to note that doing good deeds doesn't mean the person should go to heaven. If you cannot get your head around this point then look at it like this: Imagine your husband brought you some flowers, you would probably be thankful. Now, what IF he said I brought it for another lady but since she wasnt in I am giving it to you, you will probably feel gutted and not accept the flowers. The problem here is the inner state was not as 'pure' as the outer so you rejected his deed altogether even though it 'appeared good'.

                              If you want to go alitte deeper then this world demands both believers and non-believers otherwise the verses in Al Quraan addressing the non-muslims will not longer be applicable.
                              So you're saying God decides who are the baddies and the goodies (and forces them to play these roles) and plays them off against each other then when they die tortures the ones he chose to be the baddies forever?

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                              • #90
                                Re: Eternal Punishment

                                Originally posted by Shaolin's-Finest View Post
                                Its pure mercy TaraC. It doesn't need to prove anything, but it explains many things. Administering mercy/justice doesn't mean it is pain-free, much of the time it isnt. The west made this mistake and now they are paying a very big price for it.
                                Shaolin's finest, it doesn't explain but it comforts us. Thats the difference. If someone sees pain and misery and thinks well this is going to help in the afterlife, thats not really an explanation, it's comfort.
                                In my opinion, we believe in God for comfort for the injustices and our hope for immortality. This is how I see it. Almost all the religions that I know of have some sort of hell/heaven or reincarnation. What is common in all these religions is that it makes death seem like a temporary state which is in transition to the after life. For abrahamic religions, it's hell or heaven where we will be for eternity according to our actions and for hinduism it is re incarnation. We are too afraid to die, so we need some assurance that it will not be the end. Please don't take it the wrong way, I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, but this is my personal explanation for why people believe in any religion.

                                Allah cannot be comprehended with the mind. The mind is limited to the apparant world, if it cannot comprehend the billions of stars in the universe how is it going to comprehend the one who created it ? Laysa ka mithlihi shay, there is nothing to his likeness. Nothing can comprehend Allah. however, rubbuka (Your Lord) is your understanding/comprehension of Allah.
                                The source of comprehension/revelation etc of Your Lord is via Al Qalb (The heart/inside). This is why Allah says in the Quraan 'we revealed it on your QALB' and not your AQL(intellect). This is also why Allah only seals your qalb and not your aql because al qalb is where your guidance comes from.
                                But I don't understand Him. What is wrong with my Qalb that it cannot understand? So intellect doesn't play a role in believing in God?

                                I hope you dont think a hand extends out from the sky and drops some food on your plate because that is exactly what I am NOT saying. You are the earner but it is Allah who is causing you to earn the money. He has given you the power/strength to go out there, work, he causes crops to grow which will eventually end up on your plate. You buy them with the money he bestowed upon you via your employer. Take a look at a verse from the Quraan which will help you understand this concept:

                                035.009 - [/COLOR]And Allah it is Who sendeth the winds and they raise a cloud; then We lead it unto a dead land and revive therewith the earth after its death. Such is the Resurrection
                                Then why is He not feeding everyone? Is it because he wants to give them more good deeds on the day of judgment according to how much they starved? you will say that is a good pain but I disagree. I see way too many malnutritioned kids here everyday in the hospital and it's cruel
                                There are millions of starving peole worldwide. Many aren't even muslims so for them there is really no hope even since they don't even believe in Allah and are kaffirs. I guess starving non-muslims are in a lose-lose situation.

                                Second, why didn't he put us in heaven and instead send us done to earth ? Because we were in a state of zhulumaat(darkness)/dead and we wanted to be known so he brought us out of that darkness into the light of being known. Basically, there are stages of existance. You have (1) existing, (2) creating and (3) realising/existing in this world. We were in the second phase. So Allah offers us a trust to be his kulaafaa (caliphates/inheritors etc)
                                So we all asked to be born but can't remember? :(
                                How can I believe what I said while I was not conscious? And we coudn't have been in the state of dead prior to being born. Death comes after life.

                                Adam eating from the tree happened here on earth whilst he was in a parasidical state. As soon as they sinned Allah removed them out of their parasidical state.
                                But Satan told them to do so. Why did God gave Satan the power to misguide us?
                                Last edited by TaraC; 06-01-10, 04:28 AM.

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