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Eternal Punishment

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  • Re: Eternal Punishment

    If you were to live in this life forever, you would reject God forever, wouldn't you?

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    • Re: Eternal Punishment

      Predestination contradicts free will.
      Oh, no! How on earth didn't the 124,000 odd prophets (AS) didn't notice this "flaw" in their message, and didn't do anything about it?!

      Wish they were more scientifically advanced back then to figure that one out!
      Last edited by Rocky Balboa; 10-01-10, 01:15 PM.

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      • Re: Eternal Punishment

        Originally posted by TaraC View Post
        Predestination contradicts free will.
        What is the point of life if all the choices are predetermined?



        Exactly.
        So if I can never surprise God.
        That means everything I do/think/choose is predetermined. How am I choosing anything really when it's all decided prior to before I was born?
        Secondly, the point Shaolin made was that it's not the deed that takes us to hell or heaven (correct me if I am wrong but I believe this is what you stated), it's the niyah. I asked if niyah/intention is predetermined but she wasn't sure about that. Do you know if niyah is predetermined or not? It should be I assume since God is all knowing.
        God gave free will to human kind. Along with that gave the the set of divine rules. Look at it this way, you had a partner, he got Aids. Doctors informed you and him that if you both have sex you will get Aids and wrote in his book that you will get aids because being a doctor and a close friend he knows your attitude and behaviour.

        Without heeding doctors orders you had sex with him, got Aids. Whose fault is that? Yours. You will have to bare the full consequences of getting aids along with the punishment of suffering. You knew before hand and no one stopped you. It was your own free will. You were warned. He wrote that in the book because he know you well and he knows that you will do it though he is not God.

        Same way, God's given free will comes with responsibility of being held accountable according to the deeds. He is given the rights and wrongs before hand. He did not want to believe it neither want to heed it.

        As such, he suffering from what his own actions demanded, you cannot hold God accountable for that. God knows what will happen. Why? because he is the creator. God owns the universe and its creations. including you. If you want to go against God and taunt him its your choice. We are told to warn you. Not force you neither stop you.

        If you feel that you will not accept the concept, its totally up to you. What god has ordained you know. Want to Challange the creator by denying his existance, it is totally up to you. God did not meddle with your own free will choice. But God knows that you will do it. Your choice was decided by you, not by God under the Free Will. We believe that He being the Creator and we being the Created, we have to obey Him on his own terms and conditions. We believe you cannot create your terms and conditions for the Creator.

        What you are saying is God knows and if it is God's will that everything happens why you became an atheist? You forgot about your free will. Your free will things are not decided by God. God knows what you will do and he did not interfere with your free will. Its like in the above example doctors knowing and warning you that you will get aids if you have sex with him, yet you had and you got it. Is it the doctors fault that he told you and knew you will get aids plus wrote in the book that you will get it if you do that??

        God knows what a person will do even under that free will given to him. As such everthing being written down by God Almighty , everything being known beforehand by God almighty does not mean that you carried out that action because it was written before humankind came to existance. It means that you misused God Almighty's gift of free will given to you. and God knows you will do it but did not stop you. When God Almighty says its free will, it is free will along with its responsibilites.

        As a muslim I understand what it is. As a non believer of God, you will find it hard to understand.
        Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners ... turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

        Comment


        • Re: Eternal Punishment

          This is a excellent thread, 5 stars :):):):):)

          The disbelievers really showed how feeble and pathethic their arguments against Allah, the Holy One, the Creator and the King who gave us all life truly are.

          and the brothers and sisters who contributed to this thread relying on the Quran and the Sunnah showed the falsehood for what it is.
          Non-Muslims do not say on the Day of Ressurection we did not convey to you the Message http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2506/...629e576ac2.jpg

          http://www.islamictube.net

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          • Re: Eternal Punishment

            assalam alaikum

            Originally posted by lastsultan View Post
            This is a excellent thread, 5 stars :):):):):)

            The disbelievers really showed how feeble and pathethic their arguments against Allah, the Holy One, the Creator and the King who gave us all life truly are.

            and the brothers and sisters who contributed to this thread relying on the Quran and the Sunnah showed the falsehood for what it is.
            about that woman tarac , i think she has problem's of understanding things , she mix't the attributes of existence with other attributes , she is in the game of shaytan , this is how he play's with people mind

            she didnt understand what i said , they disable her acount , wich is good for a time ,she can think a litle ,i whantid to get more deper in things ,but she would get cunfused ,SubhanAllah ,wAllahi Islam is the light of the heart

            Islam is like light in the hand of the man ,and with that ligh he can see everything clear , with Islam we can see and understand at once every belief or thought , SubhanAllah , Allah has given us His light , Alhamdulilah
            “Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.”

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            • Re: Eternal Punishment

              Originally posted by lastsultan View Post
              This is a excellent thread, 5 stars :):):):):)

              The disbelievers really showed how feeble and pathethic their arguments against Allah, the Holy One, the Creator and the King who gave us all life truly are..
              yep, disabling Tara's account most surely undermined the force of her arguments...

              this is beyond pathetic

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              • Re: Eternal Punishment

                Originally posted by zsamirah View Post
                yep, disabling Tara's account most surely undermined the force of her arguments...

                this is beyond pathetic
                Why is Tara's account disabled? :( It seems somebody disappears from ummah.com everyday. :(

                Comment


                • Re: Eternal Punishment

                  I feel TaraC should be let to have her way and say here. Well its sad to loose anyone.
                  Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners ... turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

                  Comment


                  • Re: Eternal Punishment

                    Originally posted by Ibrahim Rasheed View Post
                    I feel TaraC should be let to have her way and say here. Well its sad to loose anyone.
                    Agreed. And just because she doesn't believe in God doesn't mean that God doesn't love her. God loves her still.

                    By the way, I really liked your post about God giving free will.

                    Peace and God bless you.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Eternal Punishment

                      Originally posted by zsamirah View Post
                      yep, disabling Tara's account most surely undermined the force of her arguments...

                      this is beyond pathetic
                      There is a difference between debating and trying to pick on ANYTHING to make a point. Not only did she misunderstand many things, she went as far as twisting/changing statements to fit her own whim.
                      Please Re-update your Signature

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                      • Re: Eternal Punishment

                        Originally posted by Dhulkarnein View Post
                        Tarac

                        you said this

                        Did I say I don't believe in God because I can't see Him? And actually it woudn't be such a ridiculous demand anyway since Moses got to see Him (supposedly)and he was a human..
                        If you want to discuss further, post your arguments on that eternal hell thread, not on general forum.
                        Why you dont believe in God ,if it is not that you can not see Him
                        Salaam Akhi,

                        All of TaraC's questions had been adequately addressed but her ego/nafs would always get the better of her so she would end up splitting hair ends. I saw a dream the other day, I wasn't too sure who it was referring to but as the days went by I realised it was referring to TaraC, it didn't look too good TBH.

                        Anyway I will deal with her conjecture for the benefit of other muslims. First of all, Moses didn't SEE Allah, instead Allah manifested his glory to the mountain and moses couldn't even handle that so he collapsed.

                        007.143 - وَلَمَّا جَآءَ مُوسَىٰ لِمِيقَـٰتِنَا وَكَلَّمَهُ ۥ رَبُّهُ ۥ قَالَ رَبِّ أَرِنِىٓ أَنظُرۡ إِلَيۡكَ*ۚ قَالَ لَن تَرَٮٰنِى وَلَـٰكِنِ ٱنظُرۡ إِلَى ٱلۡجَبَلِ فَإِنِ ٱسۡتَقَرَّ مَڪَانَهُ ۥ فَسَوۡفَ تَرَٮٰنِى*ۚ فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّىٰ رَبُّهُ ۥ لِلۡجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُ ۥ دَڪًّ۬ا وَخَرَّ مُوسَىٰ صَعِقً۬ا*ۚ فَلَمَّآ أَفَاقَ قَالَ سُبۡحَـٰنَكَ تُبۡتُ إِلَيۡكَ وَأَنَا۟ أَوَّلُ ٱلۡمُؤۡمِنِينَ
                        007.142 -
                        And when Moses came to Our appointed tryst and his Lord had spoken unto him, he said: My Lord! Show me (Thy Self), that I may gaze upon Thee. He said: Thou wilt not see Me, but gaze upon the mountain! If it stand still in its place, then thou wilt see Me. And when his Lord revealed (His) glory to the mountain He sent it crashing down. And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers.

                        TaraC would have known this IF she actually studied the Quraan. This is a common problem with all atheists, they want to SEE God. Seeing implies form and form implies limitation. Allah is above all of this, He is only knowable through his attributes. Its like asking a person with no tongue to describe the taste of food to you.

                        Her real problem is she doesnt believe in God because of what she percieves 'as evil'. Evil isn't inheritly evil, much of the time is only appears as such but its reality may be the complete opposite. When a doctor operates he is administering mercy. There will ALWAYS be things you don't understand, that doesnt mean that whatever it is doesn't exist, its simply a limitation on your part. She has confused the two hence her conclusion

                        As for predetermination, then it is to do with Al Haqq and Al Khalq. This is any extremely deep concept which would guarantee to cause confusion/dismay even amongst muslims and is better left unsaid but there is definately an answer for it.
                        Please Re-update your Signature

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                        • Re: Eternal Punishment

                          Originally posted by Shaolin's-Finest View Post
                          There is a difference between debating and trying to pick on ANYTHING to make a point. Not only did she misunderstand many things, she went as far as twisting/changing statements to fit her own whim.
                          In a nutshell, Tara became a nuisance because she wasnt convinced by the arguments given her.

                          However, Tara didnt insult or offend (unless one holds the interesting opinion that not bein convinced is an insult in itself)

                          And this is not something which cud be said of many of us.

                          In conclusion, this was a fiasco for our forum.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Eternal Punishment

                            Originally posted by zsamirah View Post
                            In a nutshell, Tara became a nuisance because she wasnt convinced by the arguments given her.

                            However, Tara didnt insult or offend (unless one holds the interesting opinion that not bein convinced is an insult in itself)

                            And this is not something which cud be said of many of us.

                            In conclusion, this was a fiasco for our forum.
                            the bigest insult is when someone does not choice the word's about Islam

                            we are not saying not to debat ,but they shoud know in what forum they are , soo that they shoud be carefull of the expresion they make

                            this is general ,it dosnt have too doo with her , but it is for all nonmuslim's
                            “Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.”

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                            • Re: Eternal Punishment

                              Allah is Eternal so disbelieving in him means Eternal punishment

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                              • Re: Eternal Punishment

                                Originally posted by zsamirah View Post
                                yep, disabling Tara's account most surely undermined the force of her arguments...

                                this is beyond pathetic
                                dont think soo ,it is opposite ,she was jumping from thing to another , thos tallk are not mature


                                she did in one way as you did in one thread about evolution , you left there and didnt give the answer

                                that is not corect , to fear from answer's wich are ask't
                                “Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.”

                                Comment

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