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Eternal Punishment

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  • Re: Eternal Punishment

    Originally posted by TaraC View Post
    The reason why a man would not show mercy to his wife's rapist is because the the guy is HURT.
    Is Allah hurt?
    Do we have the power to hurt the All mighty?
    Sister please read the posts from begining. No one can hurt Allah SWT. But as mentioned, Allah SWT to be merciful have to be Just too. Before people sins the person knows the rules and regulations set aside by his creator. He does it knowingly then he has to bare the consequences and penalty which is prescribed for that action.

    If in this world if someone carries out justice irrespective if the perpetrator is his own wife, son or daughter, he will be seen as a straight forward honest and a just guy. Why the same in principal cannot be applied to Creator. You are saying when a punishment already prescribed to humans under Law by God and the human flatly rejects it without any base and go on wronging the creator to his death without repenting, still under Gods mercy he should not give him Hell, he should abolish Hell and give him Heaven? Thats not Justice. The Creator is the most Just. Mercy does not mean the person can waste this life taunting God? No. He is most merciful while he is most Just.
    Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners ... turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

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    • Re: Eternal Punishment

      Originally posted by Shaolin's-Finest View Post
      Actually it was a mistake, you looked at his mercy only and completely neglected any other attribute. The Basmallah is just that, it doesnt mean they are the ONLY attributes. If I said TaraC is nice, that is just a description of one of your traits, it doesn't mean you are only nice and nothing else. See, you made the same mistake again. You should show a little more humilty rather than speaking about issues you really know little to nothing about.
      No, I got it the first time you told me He also has other attributes. But why is it that we only say Bismillah al-rahman al-rahim instead of saying Allah the distressor and abaser as you mentioned those are ALSO His attributes?
      Any reason why we don't praise those attributes?

      Well obviously you are having difficulty grasping this concept so you are probably better off looking at other points.
      Grasping the concept such as eternal nafs made for eternal hell and heaven and deeds are predetermined but we dont knw of niyah is also prederminted?
      You told me yourself YOU don't understand that, so stop implying that Im unable to understand.

      Comment


      • Re: Eternal Punishment

        Originally posted by Tahiyah View Post
        as a muslim, i can honestly admit that eternal punishment is something that i have always struggled to understand

        the Quran says we may like things bad for us and dislike things that are good for us

        i suppose when a muslim struggles with an issue in their Deen, the best they can do is trust that Allah knows best
        I used to think the same way when I was a muslim.

        for the non muslim tho, i am sure this is difficult and it must seem like blind following to them

        it really is a delicate issue to discuss
        It's not delicate, it's just one of those things that even religious people don't understand. No one has been able to give a good reason for why there is eternal hell.

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        • Re: Eternal Punishment

          Originally posted by Ibrahim Rasheed View Post
          No one can hurt Allah SWT. But as mentioned, Allah SWT to be merciful have to be Just too. Before people sins the person knows the rules and regulations set aside by his creator. He does it knowingly then he has to bare the consequences and penalty which is prescribed for that action.
          You mean the rule that we all have to worship Him?
          Give me a reason why He wants us to worship Him.
          Because he is our Creator so we must obey Him? Why does He need to be praised?
          He is already perfect, right? So why does someone whos already perfect need praise?

          If in this world if someone carries out justice irrespective if the perpetrator is his own wife, son or daughter, he will be seen as a straight forward honest and a just guy. Why the same in principal cannot be applied to Creator.
          Humans carry out punishment inorder to take revenge or to make the person feel the pain he caused someone else.
          You mentioned yourself that Allah cannot be hurt or feel painful. So if He cannot be hurt, then why would he torture us for eternity?

          Comment


          • Re: Eternal Punishment

            Originally posted by RazielTemp View Post
            Sorry but the Objections to Eternal are quite pathetic, one the one hand the Kuffar want to commit a lifetime of Sins, and NEVER repent, while on the other hand, they demand that they be forgiven ...
            Is my not belivieng cause Him any pain that he would like to burn me for eternity over and over?


            your objections are as pathetic as someone demanding a manufacturer of a machine (which happens to malfunction) not keep destroying and rebuilding it, even though he created it and ownes it ...
            Oh so your reason is that since God "owns" us, He can do whatever He wants with us?
            And by the way, if a machine malfunctions, we blame the manufacturer of the machine.

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            • Re: Eternal Punishment

              Originally posted by Tahiyah View Post
              as a muslim, i can honestly admit that eternal punishment is something that i have always struggled to understandl
              same for me

              my instinct tells me that eternal punishment is wrong, my reason that its Allahs decision

              Comment


              • Re: Eternal Punishment

                Originally posted by zsamirah View Post
                same for me

                my instinct tells me that eternal punishment is wrong, my reason that its Allahs decision
                Yeah, thats exactly where I was about 4 years ago.

                Comment


                • Re: Eternal Punishment

                  Tarac

                  you said this
                  Did I say I don't believe in God because I can't see Him? And actually it woudn't be such a ridiculous demand anyway since Moses got to see Him (supposedly)and he was a human..
                  If you want to discuss further, post your arguments on that eternal hell thread, not on general forum.
                  Why you dont believe in God ,if it is not that you can not see Him
                  “Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.”

                  Comment


                  • Re: Eternal Punishment

                    Originally posted by Dhulkarnein View Post
                    Tarac

                    you said this


                    Why you dont believe in God ,if it is not that you can not see Him
                    Because I don't believe that He has attributes of mercy when He can throw me in Hell forever. Yes I know shaolin mentioned how He is not only merciful but also the distressor.
                    I don't believe that He should punish me. People gave examples such as "wont your parents punish you for disobediance?"
                    My answer: Parents punish for disobediance because they are hurt. God cannot be hurt therefore cannot punish.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Eternal Punishment

                      TaraC;3656974- Because I don't believe that He has attributes of mercy

                      It is strange , you dont believe in His existence because He is not mercy ,very strange thing - it is like saying i dont believe in my friend's existe becasue he has no mercy , if your friend has no mercy what does that thing has too do with his existence ,he is there still -your friend


                      when He can throw me in Hell forever

                      this is strange too ,you say He can send me to the Hell but you say i dont believe in Him , like saying i dont believe that polic existe becasue they can put me in jail if i doo something

                      i think is strange , and i thing you would agree about this


                      I don't believe that He should punish me
                      where do you live , i thing you live in earth just like me , you are not at hell , soo why mention hell if you are here , if you say that i will not believe in Him becasue if i dont believe in Him he will put me in Hell -again this is strange , it is the same like with teacher , if i dont teach and teacher punish me i will not believe that he existe , strange , the teacher is their no matter what you doo and no matter what he does with you ,he is there


                      My answer: Parents punish for disobediance because they are hurt. God cannot be hurt therefore cannot punish
                      Do you believe that parent's existe , if you doo than it is real to speak about the attributes of your parents

                      Soo if you believe in the existence of God it is real to speak about His attributes , how can you judge about something wich you dont believe if he existe
                      Last edited by Dhulkarnein; 10-01-10, 03:45 AM.
                      “Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.”

                      Comment


                      • Re: Eternal Punishment

                        Originally posted by Dhulkarnein View Post
                        It is strange , you dont believe in His existence because He is not mercy ,very strange thing - it is like saying i dont believe in my friend's existe becasue he has no mercy , if your friend has no mercy what does that thing has too do with his existence ,he is there still -your friend
                        You can't compare my friend to God. This is a classic example of illogical analogy.
                        You believe in Allah through His attributes. Correct?

                        this is strange too ,you say He can send me to the Hell but you say i dont believe in Him , like saying i dont believe that polic existe becasue they can put me in jail if i doo something
                        huh??
                        Again more flawed analogies..


                        Soo if you believe in the existence of God it is real to speak about His attributes , how can you judge about something wich you dont believe if he existe
                        Ok that did not make any sense at all.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Eternal Punishment

                          You can't compare my friend to God. This is a classic example of illogical analogy.
                          do you believe first that you friend existe ? or you must see first what other attributes he has ,than you will believe in his existence



                          You believe in Allah through His attributes. Correct?
                          we are tallking about attributes of existence , one of attributes of Allah is that He existe


                          and His existence is not depending on some peoples opinion about Him , He is , no matter what opinion you have about Him


                          one of the attributes of human are that they existe ,if you would believe that your friend didnt existe you would not say he is that or that , becasue you dont believe in his existence



                          this makes no logic at all , first you are speaking about something wich existe , than you say that i dont believe beacause you think he is like that or like that

                          if you wouldn know about jahnam , or about His attributes that He is Mercifull , would you say that God dosnt existe

                          Ok that did not make any sense at all.
                          why , you jugde about something wich you dont believe in his existence , why you say He is like this and this and in other hand you say i dont believe in Him

                          do you believe He created the univers
                          Last edited by Dhulkarnein; 10-01-10, 04:33 AM.
                          “Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.”

                          Comment


                          • Re: Eternal Punishment

                            I really don't get what you're saying here. Do you speak urdu? If so, you can post in that?

                            Comment


                            • Re: Eternal Punishment

                              Belief in Al-Qadar:

                              Muslims believe in Al-Qadar, which is Divine Predestination, but this belief in Divine Predestination does not mean that human beings do not have freewill. Rather, Muslims believe that God has given human beings freewill. This means that they can choose right or wrong and that they are responsible for their choices..

                              The belief in Divine Predestination includes belief in four things: 1) God knows everything. He knows what has happened and what will happen. 2) God has recorded all that has happened and all that will happen. 3) Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen. 4) God is the Creator of everything.
                              Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners ... turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

                              Comment


                              • Re: Eternal Punishment

                                Originally posted by Ibrahim Rasheed View Post
                                Belief in Al-Qadar:

                                Muslims believe in Al-Qadar, which is Divine Predestination, but this belief in Divine Predestination does not mean that human beings do not have freewill. Rather, Muslims believe that God has given human beings freewill. This means that they can choose right or wrong and that they are responsible for their choices.
                                Predestination contradicts free will.
                                What is the point of life if all the choices are predetermined?

                                The belief in Divine Predestination includes belief in four things: 1) God knows everything. He knows what has happened and what will happen. 2) God has recorded all that has happened and all that will happen. 3) Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen. 4) God is the Creator of everything.
                                Exactly.
                                So if I can never surprise God.
                                That means everything I do/think/choose is predetermined. How am I choosing anything really when it's all decided prior to before I was born?
                                Secondly, the point Shaolin made was that it's not the deed that takes us to hell or heaven (correct me if I am wrong but I believe this is what you stated), it's the niyah. I asked if niyah/intention is predetermined but she wasn't sure about that. Do you know if niyah is predetermined or not? It should be I assume since God is all knowing.

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