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Questions about "The 40 Hadith of Imam Al-Nawawi"

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post
    whoever gave you that recommendation made a mistake when we want people to learn about islam we tell them to start by reading the quran then if they want to learn more thay can read the sunnah
    you can read and listen to the quran here
    quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#aya=1_1&m=hafs&qaree=afasy&trans=en _sh

    i havent read the rest of the thread if the brothers havent answered some of your points you can quote me and ask
    To be fair, that person first asked if I had read the Qur'an. I had...which is why he then suggested this book as well as a biography on the Prophet.

    Now as to your offer to help, the most recent question that is still floating isn't a question as much as it is a comment with room for discussion about doubt and security about Paradise and faith. One brother above commented and said something that went against everything I've ever heard from any imam or follower of Islam which is that one CAN know their place in Paradise is secure, whereas I've heard one cannot know but must hope for the mercy of Allah.

    So I'm wondering if others agree with the brother above, or not. Here's the original post from me.

    Hadith 11

    This one makes sense to me, but I have a comment that may or may not go over well, but it's how I feel so I'm putting it out there.

    "I memorised from The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him): "Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt."

    I have ZERO doubts. Christianity teaches assurance of salvation, that God puts his Holy Spirit within us to give us holy assurance of our relationship with God.

    "12 So then, brothers,[e] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons[f] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."

    Romans 8:12-17

    It is my understanding (please correct me if I'm mistaken) that Islam teaches nobody can know whether they will or will not be granted entry into Paradise. It is my understanding (again correct me if I'm mistaken) that Mohammad himself was unsure about his fate. (I get this from websites that aren't pro-Islam, so I recognize they can be biased, which is why I'm asking for correction if this is untrue. THEY base that on Quranic statements and Hadiths...example:

    Or do they say, 'He has forged it'? Say: 'If I have forged it, you have no power to help me against Allah. He knows very well what you are pressing upon; He suffices as a witness between me and you; He is the All-forgiving, the All-compassionate.' Say: 'I am not an innovation among the Messengers, and I know not what shall be done with me or with you. I only follow what is revealed to me; I am only a clear warner.' S. 46:8-9 Meccan

    Narrated 'Um al-'Ala:
    An Ansari woman who gave the pledge of allegiance to the Prophet that the Ansar drew lots concerning the dwelling of the Emigrants. 'Uthman bin Maz'un was decided to dwell with them (i.e. Um al-'Ala's family), 'Uthman fell ill and I nursed him till he died, and we covered him with his clothes. Then the Prophet came to us and I (addressing the dead body) said, "O Abu As-Sa'ib, may Allah's Mercy be on you! I bear witness that Allah has honored you." On that the Prophet said, "How do you know that Allah has honored him?" I replied, "I do not know. May my father and my mother be sacrificed for you, O Allah's Apostle! But who else is worthy of it (if not 'Uthman)?" He said, "As to him, by Allah, death has overtaken him, and I hope the best for him. By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me," By Allah, I will never assert the piety of anyone after him. That made me sad, and when I slept I saw in a dream a flowing stream for 'Uthman bin Maz'un. I went to Allah's Apostle and told him of it. He remarked, "That symbolizes his (good) deeds." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 266)

    Anyway, my point is...that Christianity teaches assurance (you could of course debate whether that assurance is justified, but we are taught confidence and I POSSESS confidence). Seems to me that if I were to revert to Islam it would be because I:

    1 - Began to doubt Christianity (as you think I should I'm assuming)
    2 - Accepted the call to Islam as the path laid out by God

    But then, I would be UNsure or doubtful about my standing with God from WITHIN Islam...especially if God will not forgive shirk. If God won't forgive shirk, it seems like there's nothing I could do now ANYWAY to go to Paradise.

    Anyway like I said this is mostly commentary with a couple "correct me if I'm wrong"s, but it seems to me that the path of Islam leaves much doubt about one's future....whereas Christianity (for good or for bad depending on whether it is VALID) teaches assurance of salvation for those who accept the sacrifice of Christ.

    Obviously you could debate whether one SHOULD have confidence in Christianity and then we're debating things like Trinity again, but my point is more general...Christianity is a path that while it may be MISTAKEN still promotes assurance or freedom from doubt, whereas it seems to me as an outsider (and from several conversations I've had with multiple imams) that there's much doubt as to one's future in Islam which would seem to make this hadith difficult to take in and hold on to.

    So, Hamza1416 (and others!), do you have any thoughts other than the one already provided by Muhammad Hasan?
    ---Committed to Loving All People of All Faiths---

    Comment


    • #17
      MCBridge it seems to me that you've misunderstood the Islamic creed in many issues.

      I would recommend you to read the translation of the creedal work al-'Aqida al-Tahawiyya (it's only 11 pages long) in order to understand the general Islamic creed better.
      This work was authored by Imam Abu Ja'far al-Tahawi (d. 321 AH) and is widely accepted among the Muslims and is pretty much representative of the creed of the majority of Muslims throughout all centuries.



      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
      Hadith 11
      This one makes sense to me, but I have a comment that may or may not go over well, but it's how I feel so I'm putting it out there.

      "I memorised from The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him): "Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt."
      The doubt that is mentioned here is connected to certainity and uncertainty, so one should leave that which one is uncertain of for that which one is certain of.

      An example: Let's say you have two job offers, one where you're certain that you won't be involved in doing anything wrong and another one where you're uncertain and think you may come into situations where you will be asked to deceive other people. So what should you do in this situation? You should choose the first offer.

      You can also listen to the following video (the first 5 minutes) by the Shaykh 'Ali Jum'a, where he explains this narration better (it's in Arabic, but it has English subtitles):

      شرح الأربعين النووية | حلقة 12 | حديث 11 - 12 | أ.د علي جمعة | English Subtitle

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lwLSy6jfe6k
      ​​​​


      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
      I have ZERO doubts. Christianity teaches assurance of salvation, that God puts his Holy Spirit within us to give us holy assurance of our relationship with God.
      Well, but the above statement is nowhere connected with the narration in question.

      Those who fully and wholeheartedly submit themselves to their Lord (which is the meaning of being a Muslim) do neither doubt their Lord, nor His Oneness, nor { the Garden of Eternity which is promised to the righteous; It will be for them a reward and destination. } (English interpretation of the noble Qur`an 25:15).

      But this does not exclude that one may encounter situations where one is uncertain what to do and where one is uncertain whether one's action is good in the sight of the Almighty or not.
      ​​​​​


      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
      It is my understanding (please correct me if I'm mistaken) that Islam teaches nobody can know whether they will or will not be granted entry into Paradise. It is my understanding (again correct me if I'm mistaken) that Mohammad himself was unsure about his fate. (I get this from websites that aren't pro-Islam, so I recognize they can be biased, which is why I'm asking for correction if this is untrue. THEY base that on Quranic statements and Hadiths...example:

      ​​​​​​...
      When one wants to learn what a specific faith teaches, then it's not a good idea to go to websites and sources, which do not even belong to the faith in question, because they will quite often misrepresent their creed either knowingly or unknowingly.

      Note that things are not established by randomly quoting Islamic texts without having any idea of the context of these texts and the existence of other texts, which make these texts clearer.

      Anyways, let's make the issue clearer: Our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) definitely knows that he is from the people of paradise and that he has the highest station in front of his Lord from among all His creation, but at the same time he's humble and does not boast about it. So these quoted texts have to be understood in this context and also in the context that some things have been revealed to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) later on.

      Then: The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) has mentioned some of his companions by name and testified that they're from the people of paradise, so how can it be claimed that he didn't know his own place?!

      We know with certainity that the believers will attain eternal salvation and this is established throughout all of the noble Qur`an, but we cannot testify for a specific individual (including ourselves) whether he / she is from the people of paradise except if there are authentic texts that establish that this person is from the people of paradise.

      There are several points to be considered here:
      - We cannot be sure in what state we will die or in what state a specific individual has died or will die.
      - Thinking that one has definitely attained salvation will cause arrogance - which leads to hellfire in reality - except in very few people.
      - It also causes one to take committing sins lightly, because one falsely things that one has already attained salvation.

      Today a lot of Christians do not just take committing sins lightly, quite a lot of them even outright deny some major sins to be sins in the first place, which is why we find them supporting this whole LGBTQ nonsense or thinking that there is nothing wrong with sexual intercourse outside (or before) marriage and other than this.
      (By the way: I'm not mentioning this in order to deny that Muslims also have problems, but these problems are the result of not adhering to the divine law and taking sins lightly.)



      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
      Anyway, my point is...that Christianity teaches assurance (you could of course debate whether that assurance is justified, but we are taught confidence and I POSSESS confidence). Seems to me that if I were to revert to Islam it would be because I:

      1 - Began to doubt Christianity (as you think I should I'm assuming)
      2 - Accepted the call to Islam as the path laid out by God

      But then, I would be UNsure or doubtful about my standing with God from WITHIN Islam...especially if God will not forgive shirk. If God won't forgive shirk, it seems like there's nothing I could do now ANYWAY to go to Paradise.

      Anyway like I said this is mostly commentary with a couple "correct me if I'm wrong"s, but it seems to me that the path of Islam leaves much doubt about one's future....whereas Christianity (for good or for bad depending on whether it is VALID) teaches assurance of salvation for those who accept the sacrifice of Christ.

      Obviously you could debate whether one SHOULD have confidence in Christianity and then we're debating things like Trinity again, but my point is more general...Christianity is a path that while it may be MISTAKEN still promotes assurance or freedom from doubt, whereas it seems to me as an outsider (and from several conversations I've had with multiple imams) that there's much doubt as to one's future in Islam which would seem to make this hadith difficult to take in and hold on to.

      Thoughts?
      Accepting Islam is based upon having conviction that it's the path laid out by the Creator.

      As for the forgiveness of sins, then even great sins - including disbelief and polytheism - can be forgiven by our Creator as long as one repents wholeheartedly and is remorseful of one did before.
      The issue with disbelief / polytheism is that God has informed us that He will not forgive it except to those who have repented from it, while the sins lesser than clear disbelief / polytheism may be forgiven even without repentance for whom God wills.

      The issue of certainity and confidence has already been clarified above and that is that we are certain that the believers will attain eternal salvation, but we do not attest to eternal salvation to specific persons because we don't know the state in which they died with the exception of those whom Allah ta'ala or His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) have attested paradise in the revealed texts.

      As for the issue of trinity, then this is the major difference between us and you and we regard it as a clear form of polytheism.
      Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 06-08-21, 12:27 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by MCBridge View Post

        To be fair, that person .......................



        Anyway like I said this is mostly commentary with a couple "correct me if I'm wrong"s, but it seems to me that the path of Islam leaves much doubt about one's future....whereas Christianity (for good or for bad depending on whether it is VALID) teaches assurance of salvation for those who accept the sacrifice of Christ.

        Obviously you could debate whether one SHOULD have confidence in Christianity and then we're debating things like Trinity again, but my point is more general...Christianity is a path that while it may be MISTAKEN still promotes assurance or freedom from doubt, whereas it seems to me as an outsider (and from several conversations I've had with multiple imams) that there's much doubt as to one's future in Islam which would seem to make this hadith difficult to take in and hold on to.

        So, Hamza1416 (and others!), do you have any thoughts other than the one already provided by Muhammad Hasan?
        ´´sked if I had read the Qur'an. I had...´´
        so you have read the entire quran ?
        when it comes to information about the religion you should take it from authentic sources like quran and sunnah or scholars but when it comes to random people like me or any brother we could get something wrong even if we try our best to give you the proper information we can make mistakes

        ´´which is that one CAN know their place in Paradise is secure´´
        to say that a specific person is going to paradise you need to have an evidence from the quran or the sunnah that back it up like this example https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/49/144
        so we cannot say that a specific person is going to paradise unless the prophet peace be upon him have told us so
        ´´I've heard one cannot know but must hope for the mercy of Allah.´´
        this is correct

        "I memorised from The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him): "Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt."
        I have ZERO doubts. Christianity teaches assurance of salvation, that God puts his Holy Spirit within us to give us holy assurance of our relationship with God.´´
        there is a couple of mistakes here
        first mistake taking the hadith out of context . there is a story behind this hadith
        Al-Hasan may Allah be pleased with him he is the son of the daughter of the prophet peace be upon him when he was still a child he was with the prophet peace be upon him and took a date from the charity dates and put it in hes mouth to eat it. the prophet peace be upon him took the date out of the child mouth and puts it back in the charity dates . the companions said why did you do that . because they thought that there is no big deal because it just one date taken from a huge amount of dates from a small child that havent reached the age yet to be accountable for hes actions the prophet then told them that its forbidden for him and for hes familly to take from the charity or zakat of the people
        second mistake is cherry picking
        are you going to apply all the ahadiths in nawawi to christianity including the one that tells you to obey the prophet peace be upom him ? or are you picking and choosing whatever you like ? or make sense to you ? because what makes sense to you is subjective and might not make sense to others.or might not make sense at all
        the proper way of finding if something is true or not is asking god alone for guidance then doing extensive research .
        if yo ustill dont understand what have you done wrong here i will give you an example
        femenist often claim that islam opress women by making them inheret less than men in some cases ignoring the other cases where women inherit more or equal to men or where women inherit and men dont inherit at all .they cherry picked just like you . another example regarding inheritance is when feminist apply the islamic inheritance system to the western secular society and say that both men and women pay the bills and yet you want women to enherit less than men . this is another fallacious example simillar to yours inheritance in islam is part of islamic law so it must be applied with others islamic rules and regulation you dont take whatever bits and pieces and apply them seperatly . in islam the women is not responsible for the expenses of her basic needs (food-shelter-clothes-health) ect there is allways a man wich is responsible for that her father her brother her husband her son even if she had work or money the man responsible for her is still obliged to cover her basic expenses .
        so similar to those examples you made the same mistakes his

        applications of this hadith in islamic jurisprudence
        wudu (purification for the praye)
        someone broke hes wudu then prayed then he had doubts if he had made wudu after he broken the wudu or not he have a doubt now if he made wudu the the prayer is valid if he didnt make wudu then the prayer is invalid he remain in doubt the hadith solves this problem the doubt here is the validity of the praye and there will be no doubt if he made a new wudu and prayed

        another example
        someone who have made wudu and prayed then he had a doubt if he have broken he wudu or not let apply the hadith he is sure that he have made wudu but he have doubt that he have broke it we leave the doubt here wich is breaking the wudu and hes prayer is valid

        i translated this part related to jurisprudence from a video of an old scholar lesson but because i learned english from playing video games i might of have done some mistakes
        brothers can see the video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_JfVO-6-w8
        in general this is only applicable for a normal doubt if a person have whispers constant doubts or OCD he should ignore them completley

        ´´I have ZERO doubts´´ have you read the bible completley ?
        have you made any bible critisicm studies ?

        ´´It is my understanding (please correct me if I'm mistaken) that Islam teaches nobody can know whether they will or will not be granted entry into Paradise´´
        correct . except the specific people that there is evidence in the quran or the sunnah that tell us they are going to heaven
        ´´It is my understanding (again correct me if I'm mistaken) that Mohammad himself was unsure about his fate.´´
        false . f the prophet peace be upon him told us about companions who are going to paradise it comon sense that he allready knows he is going to paradise . you dont have to be pro islam to read and understand properly but enemies of islam will go as far as lying committing fallacies to attack islam and by doing this they prove how weak they are because if there was something wrong wit islam you wouldnt need fallacies or lies

        ´´ THEY base that on Quranic statements and Hadiths...example:

        Or do they say, 'He has forged it'? Say: 'If I have forged it, you have no power to help me against Allah. He knows very well what you are pressing upon; He suffices as a witness between me and you; He is the All-forgiving, the All-compassionate.' Say: 'I am not an innovation among the Messengers, and I know not what shall be done with me or with you. I only follow what is revealed to me; I am only a clear warner.' S. 46:8-9 Meccan´´

        if they only bother to read the aya 13 and 14 wich is only 3 ayat away they would of had a clearer picture. but reading a whole 3 ayat before jumping to conclusions is expecting too much from the enemies of islam
        https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l...sy&trans=en_sh

        ´´yet I do not know what Allah will do to me´´
        he means that he does not know what is fully going to happen to him in the future in this world same things apply to the aya because nobody have full knowledge of the future except Allah
        https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/saa...ya9.html#saadi
        https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/kat...9.html#katheer

        ´´Anyway, my point is...that Christianity teaches assurance (you could of course debate whether that assurance is justified, but we are taught confidence and I POSSESS confidence). Seems to me that if I were to revert to Islam it would be because I:

        1 - Began to doubt Christianity (as you think I should I'm assuming)
        2 - Accepted the call to Islam as the path laid out by God´´
        i have explained that applying that hadith to christianity is fallaciouse here you are just making the same mistake when feminist apply islamic inheritance to the secular society to give the illusion that it opress women while in fact the islamic inheritance is part of the whole islamic pacckage therfore you either use take entire pacckage or dont

        ´´If God won't forgive shirk, it seems like there's nothing I could do now ANYWAY to go to Paradise.´´
        god will not forgive shirk if you die upon it .if you become a muslim you get a fresh start

        ´´but it seems to me that the path of Islam leaves much doubt about one's futur´´
        why ?you need to say the reasons that make you think so

        ´´that there's much doubt as to one's future in Islam ´´
        provide evidence

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          MCBridge it seems to me that you've misunderstood the Islamic creed in many issues.

          .
          Super helpful response. I appreciate your insight. To be fair, I am HERE asking the questions. :) I agree it would make no sense to get a true picture of Islamic belief from sites critical of Islam...which is why I took those criticisms and brought them here for your take.

          On that same note, we hosted a 12 week course at a local church on how to understand and appreciate the diversity of Muslim peoples and engage them with compassion rather than what is typical in politically conservative Christian circles. Two of the weeks were titled:

          Core Beliefs of Islam
          Expansion of Islam (632-Today)

          For those weeks, I asked an Imam, who is very respected by the Muslim community in St. Louis, if he would come and teach the lecture both of those nights. I told him that while we may not agree and there would be weeks later in the course where we discussed positions of disagreement, I wanted him to present those two weeks so we could get an accurate picture of what Muslims believe and how the faith has grown over the last 1400 years from the inside. He asked if he would be welcome on the nights where I stated why I believe Muslims are mistaken about x, y, and z...and I said he was most certainly welcome. So he agreed to teach those two weeks.

          After the second week he told me he appreciated the opportunity because even if he knew all that there was to know about Jesus in Christianity, he wouldn't be able to teach it accurately because he doesn't believe it, and he appreciated that I recognized that bias and gave him the opportunity to teach it instead. He then said he may consider having me come to the masjid to teach Christianity in the same way.

          So that's why I'm here...I dont want information ABOUT Islam from outside...I want to clarify things I find confusing or (honestly) false by participating in a respectful way within the community in which these things are believed.

          Obviously this rubs some people the wrong way, and I can't please everyone, but that's my intention. I want to engage "straight from the horse's mouth" as they say.

          I appreciate your response. It was helpful.
          ---Committed to Loving All People of All Faiths---

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post

            ´´sked if I had read the Qur'an. I had...´´
            so you have read the entire quran ?
            Yes.

            Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post
            when it comes to information about the religion you should take it from authentic sources like quran and sunnah or scholars but when it comes to random people like me or any brother we could get something wrong even if we try our best to give you the proper information we can make mistakes
            I recognize that...but what interests me is what people BELIEVE and why. I have access to Muslim teachers and can and do speak with them. But this place is different and I learn differently here.

            Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post
            first mistake taking the hadith out of context . there is a story behind this hadith
            That's why I asked, because this book I was asked to read doesn't provide context.


            Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post
            second mistake is cherry picking
            are you going to apply all the ahadiths in nawawi to christianity including the one that tells you to obey the prophet peace be upom him ? or are you picking and choosing whatever you like ? or make sense to you ? because what makes sense to you is subjective and might not make sense to others.or might not make sense at all
            Not cherry picking. I read each hadith in the book. Some are clear. Some confuse me so I ask for clarification. Some remind me of a thought from Christianity so I make a general observation. [/quote]

            Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post
            the proper way of finding if something is true or not is asking god alone for guidance then doing extensive research .


            if yo ustill dont understand what have you done wrong here i will give you an example
            femenist often claim that islam opress women by making them inheret less than men in some cases ignoring the other cases where women inherit more or equal to men or where women inherit and men dont inherit at all .they cherry picked just like you . another example regarding inheritance is when feminist apply the islamic inheritance system to the western secular society and say that both men and women pay the bills and yet you want women to enherit less than men . this is another fallacious example simillar to yours inheritance in islam is part of islamic law so it must be applied with others islamic rules and regulation you dont take whatever bits and pieces and apply them seperatly . in islam the women is not responsible for the expenses of her basic needs (food-shelter-clothes-health) ect there is allways a man wich is responsible for that her father her brother her husband her son even if she had work or money the man responsible for her is still obliged to cover her basic expenses .
            so similar to those examples you made the same mistakes his
            Don't agree that this parallels this situation at all. Because I specifically said this is how it appears to me as an outsider and asked for clarification and comment. So I wasn't taking as true what I had heard or what I read in one place and simply concluding that was a true summary of the whole faith. I said this is the impression I have derived, but then specifically asked for comment in response. That's literally the opposite of cherry picking. Cherry picking is taking something out of context so as to make a conclusion you like. I was asking FOR context, for an understanding that might clarify what appears to me to be the case from the bits I DO know. I was basically reversing the cherry pick. :)

            Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post

            ´´I have ZERO doubts´´ have you read the bible completley ?
            have you made any bible critisicm studies ?
            Yes, and yes. In addition to my regular studies of the Bible as a Christian, I have a masters degree from a seminary. So I'm pretty well versed on the field of textual criticism.

            Most of the rest of your comments repeat the cherry pick issue. So my comment above applies to all of those.

            Thanks for your replies though...I appreciate it.

            ´´If God won't forgive shirk, it seems like there's nothing I could do now ANYWAY to go to Paradise.´´
            god will not forgive shirk if you die upon it .if you become a muslim you get a fresh start


            Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post
            ´´that there's much doubt as to one's future in Islam ´´
            provide evidence
            I was saying that was my impression and asking for clarification. If I was trying to PROVE that it was definitively the case I would provide evidence. I said that's how it appeared to me, and invited commentary to correct that understanding, which was provided by Abu Sulayman.

            Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post
            ´´If God won't forgive shirk, it seems like there's nothing I could do now ANYWAY to go to Paradise.´´
            god will not forgive shirk if you die upon it .if you become a muslim you get a fresh start
            THIS explanation was super helpful though. THANK YOU!

            Blessings all. I have other questions I'll ask at a later time.

            ---Committed to Loving All People of All Faiths---

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              I recognize that...but what interests me is what people BELIEVE and why. I have access to Muslim teachers and can and do speak with them. But this place is different and I learn differently here.
              you should be worried more about getting the authentic information than knowing what random people believe
              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              That's why I asked, because this book I was asked to read doesn't provide context.
              because that book is ment for students of knowledge
              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              Not cherry picking. I read each hadith in the book. Some are clear. Some confuse me so I ask for clarification. Some remind me of a thought from Christianity so I make a general observation.
              [/QUOTE]
              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              I have ZERO doubts. Christianity teaches assurance of salvation, that God puts his Holy Spirit within us to give us holy assurance of our relationship with God.
              this seems like an application of the hadith not just an observation .perhaps your intentions were diffrent .
              https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...sh/observation
              https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...sh/application
              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              Don't agree that this parallels this situation at all. Because I specifically said this is how it appears to me as an outsider and asked for clarification and comment. So I wasn't taking as true what I had heard or what I read in one place and simply concluding that was a true summary of the whole faith. I said this is the impression I have derived, but then specifically asked for comment in response. That's literally the opposite of cherry picking. Cherry picking is taking something out of context so as to make a conclusion you like. I was asking FOR context, for an understanding that might clarify what appears to me to be the case from the bits I DO know. I was basically reversing the cherry pick. :)
              just like femenist take the case where the female inherit less than the male ignoring the other cases and rules regulations that goes with it and apply it to secular societies to fortify their claims that islam opress women you took the hadith ignoring all the hadiths that clearly contradict christian believes to make it seem like it fortify your believe in christianity you might not share the intentions of feminist but you share the same mistakes

              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              Yes, and yes. In addition to my regular studies of the Bible as a Christian, I have a masters degree from a seminary. So I'm pretty well versed on the field of textual criticism.
              so you are aware of the texts withing the bible that have mistakes or very pornographic or disrespect god and hes prophets or the fact that the authors of the gospels are unknown and that the bible have being distorted ?


              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              Most of the rest of your comments repeat the cherry pick issue. So my comment above applies to all of those.
              because the problematic understanding you had was due to the cherry picking and compound ignorance of those authors you were reading from i didnt repeat for the sake of repeating . they needed to commit fallacies in order to create a problem because there is no prolem to begin with this is what the enemies of islam do all the time to create problems they resort to fallacies compound ignorance or lies to try create prolems wich shows that there is no prolems within islam because if there was one our enemies wont try hard to make ones that dont exist . if you cant see how they chery picked i can show you .


              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              Thanks for your replies though...I appreciate it.
              np feel free to ask here or pm if you have other questions
              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              ´´If God won't forgive shirk, it seems like there's nothing I could do now ANYWAY to go to Paradise.´´
              god will not forgive shirk if you die upon it .if you become a muslim you get a fresh start
              I was saying that was my impression and asking for clarification. If I was trying to PROVE that it was definitively the case I would provide evidence. I said that's how it appeared to me, and invited commentary to correct that understanding, which was provided by Abu Sulayman.
              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              but it seems to me that the path of Islam leaves much doubt about one's futur´´
              first i asked you the reason that makes it seems to you like that a
              ´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´why ?you need to say the reasons that make you think so´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´
              but when you have said
              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              (and from several conversations I've had with multiple imams) that there's much doubt as to one's future in Islam
              this seemed like a conclusion done after extensive research therefore i asked you for the evidence that made you reach this conclusion
              as for when it comes to taking informations from scholars you need to be carefull some people might look like scholars or claim to be yet they are just some inovators and they come in all shapes and sizes from people associatiing partners to god to others deniying attributes of god to others trying to water down islam to appeal to seculars and LGBTQ+-whatever. so allways be carefull where you take your informations from and if somone ever claims to be a scholar and tells you something that contradict the quran you throw hes speech down the drain
              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
              THIS explanation was super helpful though. THANK YOU!
              Blessings all. I have other questions I'll ask at a later time.
              one last thing just in case the devil make you think that im some angry dude holding a pitchfork or that your questions are annoying this is not true
              im doing this to please god because it my duty to tell people any knowledge i have about the religion so whenever you have a question feel free to ask
              another thing is to take any information i give you as falsifyable and apply it to the quran and sunnah if it match then that good if it dosent then i have made a mistake but my intention was to give you the proper information and i can fail

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post

                one last thing just in case the devil make you think that im some angry dude holding a pitchfork or that your questions are annoying this is not true
                im doing this to please god because it my duty to tell people any knowledge i have about the religion so whenever you have a question feel free to ask
                another thing is to take any information i give you as falsifyable and apply it to the quran and sunnah if it match then that good if it dosent then i have made a mistake but my intention was to give you the proper information and i can fail
                Thanks. Just don't agree with you on most of the things you said. Not going to bother repeating my disagreement. And no, I don't agree with your contention that "the texts withing the bible that have mistakes or very pornographic or disrespect god and hes prophets or the fact that the authors of the gospels are unknown and that the bible have being distorted ?"

                Liberal, typically atheist textual critics make certain claims that conservative, typically practicing Christians who are ALSO scholars disagree with. You can find super well-educated people who disagree with each other on any number of topics. You are taking the position of some. I disagree with those who conclude that as I don't find their arguments nearly as compelling as the arguments of those who find the biblical text to be extremely well-documented and trustworthy.

                We're not going to agree on this, but to suggest that biblical/textual criticism is unanimous or even CLOSE to unanimous on those issues is just not an accurate reflection of that particular field of science.

                Blessings though...I appreciate the spirit with which you wrote the paragraph above. And there is a thread where I was defending/explaining certain issues raised about Christianity, but I've paused that while I ask questions about the hadith from the book I was asked to read which is this thread. When the other thread fires back up, we can take a discussion of biblical integrity on. For now though, I'm going to pivot back to my questions.
                ---Committed to Loving All People of All Faiths---

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by MCBridge View Post

                  Thanks. Just don't agree with you on most of the things you said
                  agreeing or disagreeing with me is irrelevant what matter is if what i have said is correct then thats good if it not correct you must bring evidence to prove me wrong
                  Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                  Not going to bother repeating my disagreement.
                  might aswell not bother responding at all
                  Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                  And no, I don't agree with your contention that "the texts withing the bible that have mistakes or very pornographic or disrespect god and hes prophets or the fact that the authors of the gospels are unknown and that the bible have being distorted ?"
                  again you agreeing or disagreeing with me is irrelevant what matter is what i have said is it true or not ?
                  lets take an example of the pornographic part
                  when i heard ahmed deedat may allah have mercy on hes soul say that there is pornography in the bible i thought mabe he was exagerating a bit so i went to do a research and what i have found was shocking
                  and lusted after their lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of stallions.
                  https://biblehub.com/ezekiel/23-20.htm

                  is this not pornographic ? would you read this to your young children or granddaughter before they sleep ? not only is this text is pornographic but its completley pointless . how does knowing thoes informations about the genitals of those men and their emission benefit the reader ? this belong in some sick porn forum and saying that this is the word of god is very disrespectfull
                  and this is not the only case

                  and they played in Egypt, prostituting themselves from their youth. Their breasts were fondled there, and their virgin bosoms caressed.
                  https://biblehub.com/ezekiel/23-3.htm

                  She did not give up the prostitution she began in Egypt, when men slept with her in her youth, caressed her virgin bosom, and poured out their lust upon her
                  https://biblehub.com/ezekiel/23-8.htm


                  Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes, their houses will be looted, and their wives will be ravished.
                  https://biblehub.com/isaiah/13-16.htm

                  My beloved is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts.
                  https://biblehub.com/songs/1-13.htm

                  Your breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle grazing among the lilies.
                  https://biblehub.com/songs/4-5.htm

                  I am a wall, and my breasts are like towers. So I have become in his eyes like one who brings peace.
                  https://biblehub.com/songs/8-10.htm


                  Your stature is like a palm tree; your breasts are clusters of fruit
                  https://biblehub.com/songs/7-7.htm


                  I said, “I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.” May your breasts be like clusters of the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples,
                  https://biblehub.com/songs/7-8.htm


                  Your navel is a rounded goblet; it never lacks blended wine. Your waist is a mound of wheat encircled by the lilies.
                  https://biblehub.com/songs/7-2.htm


                  are all those texts not pornographic ? would you read this to your young children or granddaughter before they sleep
                  and this is just the pornographic part
                  when i talk with christians i forgive their ignorance when it comes to such texts because alot of the christians dont read the bible but when it comes to someone who claims that he have a masters degree from a seminary makes me question what do they teach you in this seminary and does it even come close to biblical critisism ?

                  Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                  Liberal, typically atheist textual critics make certain claims
                  this is called traitorous critic fallacy we deal with the critisism itself first after that we can understand if the purpose of this critisism is to reach the truth or does it have other motivations
                  Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                  that conservative, typically practicing Christians who are ALSO scholars disagree with
                  such as ? i want names
                  Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                  You can find super well-educated people who disagree with each other on any number of topics.
                  number of topics but not well known established facts like the authors of the gospels are unknown
                  Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                  You are taking the position of some.
                  i dont pick and choose i try to follow the truth
                  Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                  I disagree with those who conclude that as I don't find their arguments nearly as compelling
                  give me their names their arguments and why you dont find their arguments compeling
                  Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                  as the arguments of those who find the biblical text to be extremely well-documented and trustworthy.
                  give me their names their arguments and why do you find their arguments compeling
                  Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                  We're not going to agree on this, but to suggest that biblical/textual criticism is unanimous or even CLOSE to unanimous on those issues is just not an accurate reflection of that particular field of science.
                  did they teach you this in the seminary ?



                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post


                    give me their names their arguments and why you dont find their arguments compeling

                    give me their names their arguments and why do you find their arguments compeling

                    did they teach you this in the seminary ?
                    Again, we were having a discussion where people were raising issues with Christianity and I was responding and I'm willing to do this again as soon as we complete THIS conversation. Some on THAT conversation asked me to read the 40 Hadith of Al-Nawawi which I did, and it raised some questions which I'm am putting forward here. Happy to go back to that and give you ample sources that speak to the integrity of Holy Scripture at that time.

                    But for now, I'm trying to stick to the topic at hand which is the book I was asked to read.

                    ---Committed to Loving All People of All Faiths---

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post

                      Again, we were having a discussion where people were raising issues with Christianity and I was responding and I'm willing to do this again as soon as we complete THIS conversation. Some on THAT conversation asked me to read the 40 Hadith of Al-Nawawi which I did, and it raised some questions which I'm am putting forward here. Happy to go back to that and give you ample sources that speak to the integrity of Holy Scripture at that time.

                      But for now, I'm trying to stick to the topic at hand which is the book I was asked to read.
                      you didnt want to complete this conversation when you was making claims

                      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                      And no, I don't agree with your contention that "the texts withing the bible that have mistakes or very pornographic or disrespect god and hes prophets or the fact that the authors of the gospels are unknown and that the bible have being distorted ?
                      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                      Liberal, typically atheist textual critics make certain claims
                      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                      You can find super well-educated people who disagree with each other on any number of topics.
                      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                      You are taking the position of some
                      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                      I disagree with those who conclude that as I don't find their arguments nearly as compelling
                      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                      as the arguments of those who find the biblical text to be extremely well-documented and trustworthy.
                      Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                      We're not going to agree on this, but to suggest that biblical/textual criticism is unanimous or even CLOSE to unanimous on those issues is just not an accurate reflection of that particular field of science.
                      but when you were asked to prove them you had the sudden need to complete this conversation first .if you had answers you would of presented them no matter what . so i advice you before going to read islamic books go learn proper biblicat criticism at a university because seminary school can be biased just like everyone can be. this dosent mean that there is no honest christian and atheist critics .once you get the two sides of the coin you can make proper judgmenet unless you are the type of christian who dosent care if hes religion is true or not and there is alot of them









                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post

                        you didnt want to complete this conversation when you was making claims


                        but when you were asked to prove them you had the sudden need to complete this conversation first .if you had answers you would of presented them no matter what . so i advice you before going to read islamic books go learn proper biblicat criticism at a university because seminary school can be biased just like everyone can be. this dosent mean that there is no honest christian and atheist critics .once you get the two sides of the coin you can make proper judgmenet unless you are the type of christian who dosent care if hes religion is true or not and there is alot of them
                        That's not an accurate assessment of what I was thinking. What happened was that I did respond briefly...and then when it was clear it was going to be a full discussion with references, etc. I realized it was more than a small aside to the conversation and was becoming a conversation on its own. So I shelved it temporarily. Again though I said I WOULD entertain that discussion and WOULD provide support for my contentions when I'm done with this conversation. So I'm hardly dodging. :) It'll happen...I just want to get my questions answered first since I'm reading the book I was asked to read and purchased and read.

                        And you're making a huge assumption that I haven't studied biblical criticism from multiple angles. I don't just take things at face value. If I did, I wouldn't be HERE. Clearly I'm trying to hear from an alternative side that is critical of my beliefs. And my shelf is filled with books that take opposing views. FILLED.

                        You can criticize things I say all day but to try and guess what I'm thinking BEHIND what I say just isn't super productive. If you want to know what I'm thinking, ask me.
                        ---Committed to Loving All People of All Faiths---

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          McBridge, you were supposed to keep your questions in the one thread

                          I see that advice was ignored
                          .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                          نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                          دولة الإسلامية باقية





                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
                            McBridge, you were supposed to keep your questions in the one thread

                            I see that advice was ignored
                            It wasn't ignored. I did. But after days without response I realized they weren't being seen there, so I chose to go a different route which has proven successful. I took it as advice and not a rule. If I was mistaken with that, please advise.
                            Last edited by MCBridge; 12-08-21, 05:50 PM.
                            ---Committed to Loving All People of All Faiths---

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                              That's not an accurate assessment of what I was thinking. What happened was that I did respond briefly
                              you made a bunch of claims and when you were asked to provide evidence you backed out
                              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                              ...and then when it was clear it was going to be a full discussion with references,
                              providing some references for your information doesnt take alot effort or time unless you dont have them
                              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                              So I'm hardly dodging. :)
                              i wouldnt call it dodging you skipped the entire part about the problems with the bible when i only brought you evidences regarding pornography
                              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                              and purchased and read.
                              you dont need to purchase anything
                              https://al-maktaba.org/search
                              you put the name of the book in arabic then you can read it online and use google translate
                              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                              And you're making a huge assumption that I haven't studied biblical criticism from multiple angles.
                              too bad all thoes studies and angles werent enought to give a simple response to the few pornography in the bible examples i have provided
                              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                              I don't just take things at face value. If I did, I wouldn't be HERE.
                              being here dosent mean anything i once talked with a christian here who didnt care if christianity is true or false he is christian because he inherited it
                              Originally posted by MCBridge View Post
                              my shelf is filled with books that take opposing views. FILLED.
                              having books on the shelf isnt enough you need to actually read them

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Hamza1416 View Post
                                you made a bunch of claims and when you were asked to provide evidence you backed out

                                providing some references for your information doesnt take alot effort or time unless you dont have them

                                i wouldnt call it dodging you skipped the entire part about the problems with the bible when i only brought you evidences regarding pornography

                                you dont need to purchase anything
                                https://al-maktaba.org/search
                                you put the name of the book in arabic then you can read it online and use google translate

                                too bad all thoes studies and angles werent enought to give a simple response to the few pornography in the bible examples i have provided

                                being here dosent mean anything i once talked with a christian here who didnt care if christianity is true or false he is christian because he inherited it

                                having books on the shelf isnt enough you need to actually read them
                                Bro,

                                Why are you being so hostile? I'm happy to talk...I do read my books, I didn't skip anything, I said I wanted to do something else first. That's the long and short of it, and I'm not sure why you feel the need to be so antagonistic in response. I'm trying to be super cool with everyone, whether we agree or not. Obviously you can take a different approach, but I just don't get why you would. I truly wish you the best and look forward to both this AND that conversation in the future.

                                That said, all, I'm heading to Turkey Friday and will be gone for a few weeks. I will pick this Hadith issue back up if anyone is interested at that time.
                                ---Committed to Loving All People of All Faiths---

                                Comment

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