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  • #46
    Originally posted by ilikepie View Post

    Thanks for proving my point. You demonstrated for us that I spoke generally about companions, and that you made it specifically about certain individuals.
    As I have said countless times now, SOME sahaba are not worthy of respect, and the only name I had mentioned until you escalated things was Muawiyah and only him.
    Other sahaba are very worthy of love and respect like Ammar, Abu-Tharr (who was exiled with his family into the middle of the desert by a certain someone), Miqdad, Salman, Habib al asadi, and more.
    Seriously, why can't you be sincere when talking to other Muslims? It's not like you're under any threat from my side!

    Your leading authorities of the past regard a HANDFUL of companions as respectful and good (if we are very generous it it may reach 40 persons!) and the rest of them (meaning 99 % of them) were either "apostates" or "hypocrites" or "disbelievers in the hereafter" or what is similar to that.

    So ACCORDING to YOUR group the MAJORITY of the Muhajirun and the Ansar were NOT good people and should NOT be respected!
    So yes, your statement against the companions was indeed GENERAL as you stated, because it was directed against the MAJORITY of them!

    This with the knowledge that these very Muhajirun and Ansar, that your leading authorities hate so much, are EXPLICITLY praised in the book of Allah ta'ala!

    ​​​​​​
    ​​​​​
    Originally posted by ilikepie View Post
    So stop trying to rally yourself and others that I am hating on ALL companions. That's just sad bro.
    It's strange how Sunnis often say "we have no clue what is going on in the companions hearts so better to give them benefit of the doubt no matter what", yet when it comes to Shia "evil heart, ill intentions, awful human" etc.
    Gotta love the continuous double standards.
    These Muhajirun and Ansar risked their wealth and their lives for this religion and supported our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and got oppressed, wounded and even martyred in great numbers in the way of Allah ta'ala!
    And these people have been PRAISED by Allah ta'ala and then you want me to put insincere creatures like your group on the same level as them and don't give them any benefit of doubt?!?

    Take for example al-Zubayr (radhiallahu 'anhu) and all his services for Islam. Yes, he was mistaken to stand against 'Ali bin Abi Talib (radhiallahu 'anhu) at al-Jamal, but he himself realized his mistake and stopped fighting him and was killed on his way back while praying. It's even reported that Imam 'Ali (radhiallahu 'anhu) cried when he he came to know about his death.

    ​​​​​​Additionally: The majority of the companions did NOT even stand against Imam 'Ali (karamallahu wajhahu) in any battle, but your group still regards them as "disbelievers in the hereafter" out of nowhere!

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by ilikepie View Post

      Abu Sulayman Excellent quote

      I love it because you just demonstrated for the world one of the main reasons that some Sunnis can be extraordinarily biased and subjective.

      Here, you have openly admitted that you love people because of association, not by the order of Allah and His Prophet.
      You do not value the merits of individuals, you value the relationship to people who you happen to care about and love.

      ...
      Before making in such comments, read and understand what is being said and then respond.

      Read again:

      Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
      And: We love both the Ahl al-Bayt and the Sahaba, because they were supporters of Rasulullah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and we do not act as if only one group is respected without the other!
      The revelation and the historical data establishes beyond any doubt that both of them gave their wealth and their lives in order to support the religion of Allah ta'ala and it's beyond me how you expect us to believe that in all these battles and in all these Futuhat the companions were just sitting by and letting Imam 'Ali (karamallahu wajhahu) fight alone and this with the knowledge that hundreds - no thousands! - of them got martyred during these battles!


      Allah ta'ala states:

      { وَٱلَّذِينَ جَآءُو مِنۢ بَعْدِهِمْ يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا ٱغْفِرْ لَنَا وَلِإِخْوَٰنِنَا ٱلَّذِينَ سَبَقُونَا بِٱلْإِيمَـٰنِ وَلَا تَجْعَلْ فِى قُلُوبِنَا غِلًّا لِّلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ رَبَّنَآ إِنَّكَ رَءُوفٌ رَّحِيمٌ }

      { And [there is a share for] those who come after them, saying, "Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith and put not in our hearts [any] resentment toward those who have believed. Our Lord, indeed You are Kind and Merciful." }

      [Al-Qur`an al-karim 59:10 with English interpretation]
      (Highlight added in order for you to read.)

      So their connection is their support for the religion of Allah ta'ala! And Allah ta'ala has ORDERED us to love those who support out noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). Do you doubt this order?

      So your whole comment becomes worthless, because you gave it a meaning, which is quite obviously not what I intended in the first place.

      It's ridiculous that I even have to clarify this.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by ilikepie View Post
        Further info why we love Ahlulbayt based on the orders of Allah and His Prophet, and NOT BASED ON OUR OWN WHIMS or whatever other nonsense:

        Day of Ghadir Khumm
        "O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don’t do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ...”(Qur’an 5:67).
        The Messenger of Allah declared: "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."

        Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?”People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.”Then Prophet (S) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), ‘Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."
        I wonder who was hostile to him? Siffin? Jamal?
        Some of the Sunni references:
        (1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
        (2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
        (3) Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21
        (4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
        (5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370, 372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
        (6) Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
        (7) Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
        (8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
        (9) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
        (10) Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173


        Immediately after the Prophet (S) finished his speech, the following verse of Holy Qur’an was revealed:
        "Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion.”(Qur’an 5:3)


        This is why we love Ahlulbayt and hate their enemies, the same way we love the Prophet and hate his enemies, the same way we love Allah and hate His enemies.
        While there were several GREAT companions who were faithful, loyal, brave, they do NOT compare to Ahlulbayt (a.s) based on the evidence provided above (NOT BASED ON ASSOCIATION)
        The insincerity goes on. These two Ayat have NO connection to Ghadir Khumm at all, which has a background which you don't want to mention, because it destroys your argument.

        As for these Sunni sources (as if our fooled by your CLAIM of quoting them!), then learn to properly quote them and then we can talk.

        This is how the narration is mention in Sunan al-Tirmidhi.
        And this is how it's mentioned in Sunan Ibn Majah.
        And this is how it's mentioned in Khasa`is 'Ali. (It's also mentioned in other paasages.)

        These are just the first sources that you claimed and here we see that they mentioned the narration different to what you claimed and that the Ayat have not been mentioned by them!


        And now a practical proof to show that these Ayat are not connected to Ghadir Khumm at all. I will show this using the context of the Aya 5:67:

        ​​​​{ And the Jews say, "The hand of Allah is chained."1 Chained are their hands, and cursed are they for what they say. Rather, both His hands are extended; He spends however He wills. And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. And We have cast among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war [against you], Allah extinguished it. And they strive throughout the land [causing] corruption, and Allah does not like corrupters. }
        { And if only the People of the Scripture had believed and feared Allah, We would have removed from them their misdeeds and admitted them to Gardens of Pleasure. }
        { And if only they had upheld [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to them from their Lord [i.e., the Qur’ān], they would have consumed [provision] from above them and from beneath their feet.1 Among them are a moderate [i.e., acceptable] community, but many of them - evil is that which they do. }
        { O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people. }
        { Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord [i.e., the Qur’ān]." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people. }
        { Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ)] and those [before him (ﷺ)] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.1 }

        [English interpretation of al-Qur`an al-karim 5:64-69]

        So the Ayat before and after it are regarding the Ahl al-Kitab and then you want it to connect to Ghadir Khumm out of nowhere?!


        By the way: Some (or many?) of your leading authorities claimed the Qur`an al-karim to be distorted, because it's no secret that the Qur`an al-karim is not in line with your creed and even refutes it (just think of the praise for the Mujahirun and Amsar!).
        You still stay silent on this major point and also regarding the disbelief and apoatasy of these so called "leading authorities" of yours, who attacked the correctness of the Qur`an al-karim!


        ​​​​

        Comment


        • #49
          ^

          Sorry for all the spelling mistakes, but I wrote the comment very fast. There is no way to edit it afterwards.


          Anyways, I don't understand why my original question was not answered and why this person above is hellbent in turning the issue into a debate despite of what the brother Muhammad Hasan stated.

          Comment


          • #53
            The unapologetic view tells me Shia have crystallized into a separate community.

            And the better approach would be to leave each other as it is.

            The diplomatic view tries to take into account various factors that were involved.

            I appreciate this since it gives a hint that they considered the community as a whole.
            https://followthemoney.com/preparing...system-part-1/
            https://followthemoney.com/petrodollar-collapse-part-2/
            https://followthemoney.com/petrodollar-collapse-part-3/
            https://followthemoney.com/petrodollar-collapse-part-4/

            Comment


            • #54
              Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
              Seriously, why can't you be sincere when talking to other Muslims? It's not like you're under any threat from my side!

              Your leading authorities of the past regard a HANDFUL of companions as respectful and good (if we are very generous it it may reach 40 persons!) and the rest of them (meaning 99 % of them) were either "apostates" or "hypocrites" or "disbelievers in the hereafter" or what is similar to that.

              So ACCORDING to YOUR group the MAJORITY of the Muhajirun and the Ansar were NOT good people and should NOT be respected!
              So yes, your statement against the companions was indeed GENERAL as you stated, because it was directed against the MAJORITY of them!

              This with the knowledge that these very Muhajirun and Ansar, that your leading authorities hate so much, are EXPLICITLY praised in the book of Allah ta'ala!
              Originally posted by ອາໄສຢູ່ ຣາຮາມ View Post
              Why didn't Imam Ali fight Khalifa Abu Bakr?

              Website 1
              ​​​​​​:
              https://www.al-islam.org/misbah-uz-z...gainst-caliphs

              (unapologetic view)
              Barakallahu fik for sharing this.

              Just read the last line:

              After the passing away of the Holy Prophet (S) there was such a shortage of friends and helpers for Ali (a.s.) that only four companions of the Prophet were on his side: Miqdad, Ammar, Salman and Abu Dharr. On the other hand, most companions of the Prophet became aloof from him and were in support of the three Caliphs.
              - end of quote -

              Here you have it! So their problem is with 99 % of the Muhajirun and Ansar and then this person thinks he is able to fool us?!



              Originally posted by ອາໄສຢູ່ ຣາຮາມ View Post
              ​​​​​​The followong is stated in the context of the ugly lie of the broken rib and Fatimatul Zahra` (radhiallahu 'anha) being beaten up and loosing her child and dying herself and so on:

              There is no contradiction between Imam Ali (as) not defending Lady Fatimah (as) and her being offended and oppressed and between his courage and strength and being there when it all took place.
              - end of quote -

              Instead of clarifying that Fatima (radhiallahu 'anha) was never beaten up and that the narrations stating this are incorrect, they instead claim them to be authentic and thereby insult Imam 'Ali (karamallahu wajhahu) and the people of Makka and Madina of that time in general and present them as a bunch of ghiraless people! Wallahul musta'an!

              ​​​​

              Comment


              • #55
                Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                ​​​​​​The followong is stated in the context of the ugly lie of the broken rib and Fatimatul Zahra` (radhiallahu 'anha) being beaten up and loosing her child and dying herself and so on:

                There is no contradiction between Imam Ali (as) not defending Lady Fatimah (as) and her being offended and oppressed and between his courage and strength and being there when it all took place.
                - end of quote -

                Instead of clarifying that Fatima (radhiallahu 'anha) was never beaten up and that the narrations stating this are incorrect, they instead claim them to be authentic and thereby insult Imam 'Ali (karamallahu wajhahu) and the people of Makka and Madina of that time in general and present them as a bunch of ghiraless people! Wallahul musta'an!

                ​​​​
                Just so that one has an imagination of what ugly things some of the venomous Rafidhi Mashaykih (may Allah ta'ala give them what they deserve!) teach to their followers as a "matter of historical fact" and this even if it's entails insulting Imam 'Ali (karamallahu wajhahu) and putting his Ghira and his obligation to defend his wife - who is the DAUGHTER of Chosen One (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) - into doubt:

                تشابيه استشهاد الزهراء ||كسر الضلع

                https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A4DRUJIB0Nc

                ​​​​​I'm speechless that any person with intellect would even consider the possibility of this happening. ​​​​​​

                Comment


                • #56
                  Jeez the hostility is real.
                  Like I said before, you have your tafsir, that's fine.
                  To me our tafsir makes sense, especially since we make sense out of it in the arabic language, why would you say I am insincere just for sharing my view? I am quoting literature.

                  While you unfortunately fail to understand that your understanding via the english language is incomplete, and therefore invalid. So I won't even bother replying to such deficiency in understanding. I am happy to share with another brother who understands the importance of arabic in tafsir, as well as the way Quran was revealed which I will hint at below.

                  By the way: Some (or many?) of your leading authorities claimed the Qur`an al-karim to be distorted, because it's no secret that the Qur`an al-karim is not in line with your creed and even refutes it (just think of the praise for the Mujahirun and Amsar!).
                  You still stay silent on this major point and also regarding the disbelief and apoatasy of these so called "leading authorities" of yours, who attacked the correctness of the Qur`an al-karim!
                  Please provide proof of this truly insincere claim.
                  Not a single letter in the Quran is changed, because Allah protects the wording of the Quran. The chapters are indeed in a different order, and anyone who denies this is clearly uneducated about how the Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years (which is in fact one of the miracles of the Quran). Evidently, He has not protected the interpretation in the same way.
                  So don't go making foolish statements just because you remain emotionally charged despite my attempts to de-escalate your estrogen flares.
                  What propaganda are you going to spill next? That we think Jibril (a.s) made a mistake in delivering the message to the Prophet instead of Ali? Astaqfirallah.

                  At least be original.


                  Comment


                  • #57
                    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                    Just so that one has an imagination of what ugly things some of the venomous Rafidhi Mashaykih (may Allah ta'ala give them what they deserve!) teach to their followers as a "matter of historical fact" and this even if it's entails insulting Imam 'Ali (karamallahu wajhahu) and putting his Ghira and his obligation to defend his wife - who is the DAUGHTER of Chosen One (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) - into doubt:

                    تشابيه استشهاد الزهراء ||كسر الضلع

                    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A4DRUJIB0Nc

                    ​​​​​I'm speechless that any person with intellect would even consider the possibility of this happening. ​​​​​​
                    He grabbed ibn al khattab by the throat and pinned him on the ground. But sure, believe what you want.

                    Comment


                    • #58
                      O’ Prophet, Proclaim the Message which has been sent to you from your Lord! And if you do not do that, then you would not have fulfilled and proclaimed His Mission. (Know that) Allah will protect you from (the mischievous) men. Sura Al-Ma'idah, verse 67.

                      Obeying the commandment of God, the Prophet of Allah (S) proclaimed that Ali was the wali (guardian of Muslim affairs). He called for congregational prayer and asked those who were present to inform about it those who were not present.1

                      Great Sunni Huffaz (memorizers of Quran) and famous Sunni scholars such as Ibn Abi Hatam, Ibn Marduyeh, Thalabi, Abu Naeem Isfahani, Wahidi, Haskani, Ibn Asakir, Fakhr Razi, Naishaburi, Einy, Jalal Al-Din Suyuti etc. have also related that this verse was revealed on Ghadir Day.
                      Some of Sunni references confirming that the revelation of the above verse of Qur’an was right before the speech of Prophet in Ghadir Khum:

                      (1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, under commentary of verse 5:67, v12, pp 49-50, narrated on the authorities of Ibn Abbas, al-Bara Ibn Azib, and Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali.

                      (2) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, p50, narrated on the authorities of Atiyyah and Abu Sa’id al Khudri.

                      (3) Nuzul al-Qur’an, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym narrated on the authorities Abu Sa’id Khudri and Abu Rafi.

                      (4) al-Fusool al Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p24

                      (5) Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz al-Suyuti, under commentary of verse 5:67

                      (6) Fathul Qadir, by al-Shawkani, under commentary of verse 5:67

                      (7) Fathul Bayan, by Hasan Khan, under commentary of verse 5:67

                      (8) Shaykh Muhi al-Din al-Nawawi, under commentary of verse 5:67

                      (9) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p301

                      (10) Umdatul Qari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by al-Ayni

                      (11) Tafsir al-Nisaboori, v6, p194

                      Comment


                      • #59
                        Originally posted by ilikepie View Post
                        Jeez the hostility is real.
                        Like I said before, you have your tafsir, that's fine.
                        To me our tafsir makes sense, especially since we make sense out of it in the arabic language, why would you say I am insincere just for sharing my view? I am quoting literature.

                        While you unfortunately fail to understand that your understanding via the english language is incomplete, and therefore invalid. So I won't even bother replying to such deficiency in understanding. I am happy to share with another brother who understands the importance of arabic in tafsir, as well as the way Quran was revealed which I will hint at below.
                        You are insincere, because you posted a narration and then claimed this narration to be found in so and so many Sunni sources and then when one checks these sources, one sees that there is a very significant difference in wording to what you posted.

                        Did you get it now? Then: Your version of the narration is not authentic in our view, so what is your point now?

                        As for the Arabic issue: I understand Arabic, you genius!

                        Originally posted by ilikepie View Post
                        Please provide proof of this truly insincere claim.
                        Not a single letter in the Quran is changed, because Allah protects the wording of the Quran. The chapters are indeed in a different order, and anyone who denies this is clearly uneducated about how the Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years (which is in fact one of the miracles of the Quran). Evidently, He has not protected the interpretation in the same way.
                        So don't go making foolish statements just because you remain emotionally charged despite my attempts to de-escalate your estrogen flares.
                        What propaganda are you going to spill next? That we think Jibril (a.s) made a mistake in delivering the message to the Prophet instead of Ali? Astaqfirallah.

                        At least be original.
                        There are two options:
                        1) You are ignorant what your leading authorities have stated regarding the issue of Tahrif al-Qur`an.
                        2) You know what they have stated and are LYING in order to defend them.

                        So which one is it?


                        And here you have Kamal al-Haydari (who believes in the correctness of the Qur`an al-karim) mentioning two views that both exist among your scholars:

                        تحريف القرآن بين السيد الخوئي و المحدث المجلسي | السيد كمال الحيدري

                        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zUcIIt2IHhY

                        So here he mentions the view of al-Khoei (he lived in our time), who vehemently rejected this position and believed in the correctness of the Qur`an al-karim, but he also mentions al-Majlisi (d. 1110 AH) (who is among your absolute top scholars and the author of Bihar al-Anwar), who claims in his Mir`at al-'Uqul that the issue of Tahrif is established by TAWATUR in the same way as Imama!

                        So here you have it! One of your absolute top scholars believed in this KUFR! Do you want more?

                        (Unfortunately al-Haydari acts is if this Kufri view doesn't throw one out of the religion, which just shows how far away these people are from real Islam.)

                        Seriously man, in my country there are a lot of Shi'a and I know their positions to a good degree, so need for you to try to fool me! It won't work!
                        ​​​​​
                        Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 03-09-21, 12:27 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #60
                          Originally posted by ilikepie View Post

                          He grabbed ibn al khattab by the throat and pinned him on the ground. But sure, believe what you want.
                          O really? This with the knowledge that the whole issue of Fatima (radhiallahu 'anha) being beaten up and that her ribs were broken is LIE in the very first place. So you now mention another LIE to make the first lie seem more acceptable?

                          Anyways, someone who does what you claim regarding what happened to al-Zahra` (radhiallahu 'anha) deserves much more than the lie you came up!

                          Imagine someone were to do this against your wife? What would you do to him?

                          Seriously, do you really think that Imam 'Ali (radhiallahu 'anhu) - the lion of Allah ta'ala! - would have just left it at that? Man, this is the daughter of Rasulullah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam)!
                          Have a little bit of shame and don't believe every lie!

                          Even one of the major Maraji' in Iraq (whom almost all Shi'a respect!) doesn't seem to regard this story as correct!

                          Originally posted by ilikepie View Post
                          Some of Sunni references confirming that the revelation of the above verse of Qur’an was right before the speech of Prophet in Ghadir Khum:

                          (1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, under commentary of verse 5:67, v12, pp 49-50, narrated on the authorities of Ibn Abbas, al-Bara Ibn Azib, and Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali.

                          ​​​​​​...
                          Imam al-Razi (d. 606 AH) mentioned 10 different opinions on the reason for the revelation of this Aya and the tenth is that it was regarding the excellence of 'Ali (radhiallahu 'anhu) and even then the narration that is mentioned is different from yours!

                          Then he stated the strongest opinion in his view:

                          واعلم أن هذه الروايات وإن كثرت إلا أن الأولى حمله على أنه تعالى آمنه من مكر اليهود والنصارى، وأمره بإظهار التبليغ من غير مبالاة منه بهم، وذلك لأن ما قبل هذه الآية بكثير وما بعدها بكثير لما كان كلاماً مع اليهود والنصارى امتنع إلقاء هذه الآية الواحدة في البين على وجه تكون أجنبية عما قبلها وما بعدها
                          - end of quote -

                          So he clarifies that due to its context it must be regarding the Jews and the Christians.
                          This was also the reason why I posted the context for everyone to see.

                          This is just the first source you gave. We can move on to the rest and I'm sure we will see similar to this!
                          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 03-09-21, 12:46 AM.

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