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Alternate Madahib on Injil Preservation, Crucifixion etc.

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  • Alternate Madahib on Injil Preservation, Crucifixion etc.

    Bismillihir-Rahmanir-Raheem,

    I have noticed there is much discussion between Muslims and Christians on this forum, and some Christians and even Muslims may be unaware exactly what Muslim beliefs are regarding the Crucifixion, etc. Essentially there are majority positions and minority positions, and what we tend to do is focus on or expand on the majority positions.

    Now whilst I disagree with much the speaker in the below video says, I nevertheless recognise that this is an issue of valid difference of opinion (I would only come out to outright firmly reject as completely wrong one or two thing he says in the video, the first being on the nature of Naskh and the second is towards the end - on the topic of the Torah and infalliability of the Prophets Alayhim Salam).

    For Muslims

    I will post the video for brothers and sisters who are not weak in Taqwa to watch. I feel for some brothers and sisters, the below video will not be suitable as this is quite a complicated academic topic, and being exposed to the difference of opinion of the Ulama (when we may sometimes assume there is no difference of opinion) can be quite startling. Also due to some of the more simplistic arguments used in the Dawah scene sometimes, the below discussion may come as a shock to some brothers and sisters.

    I recently promised someone I would discuss the Isra'illiyat in a thread, and I haven't forgotten about that. I think this is an important discussion to consider first as it will play into my position on the Isra'iliyyat and the Judeo-Christian tradition as a whole. Basically, my positions, which tend to be the more traditional opinions held by the mainstream going back to key Sahabah, go up with and conflict with much of what is said in this video and I think it is important that we first inform ourselves of the alternative before being critical of it and bringing our own opinions.

    For Christians

    There is an assumption amongst Christians that we Muslims are simplistic and unfair of our treatment of the scripture, and that if we accepted on a similar level the textual authenticity of the Injil and were less critical of Paul, we would hold the same theological positions of the Christians. This is untrue, and the below video actually takes the positions of affirming the textual authenticity of the Injil and accepting more of the mainstream Christian narrative.

    That we have Muslim academics who take these positions and still firmly maintain the fact that Christian doctrine and theology is incorrect, should be a sign for Christians that even if we accepted many or most of the arguments on these points, it would not and does not entail their doctrine.

    Video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WH3xEo444I


    Insha'Allah, I will be posting my thoughts, criticisms and evidences below. Brothers and Sisters are welcome to join in the discussion, and I encourage our Christian friends to join in too.



    Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 06-09-20, 04:34 PM. Reason: Underlining, "who are not weak in Taqwa"

  • #2
    Ijaz Ahmad's criticisms of Ali Ataie's Approach

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJuV4A8K8_M

    Comment


    • #3
      Before I start discussing this - what do I mean by Weak in Taqwa?

      Admitting you are weak in Taqwa and not delving into these kind of things is better than watching it and becoming very confused. We all have points in our lives when we are weak in Taqwa, so this is not something to be afraid about or defensive over.

      This discussion and the first video are for those of us who enjoy discussing these topics in-depth and at a higher level, which I have noticed many in this forum seem to do. It is for those people to discuss this issue. For others, they will realise in their own wisdom, that these discussions are not for them. This does not mean they have less Iman (and I am of the opinion that you either have Iman or don't anyway), as all of us who believe in Allah Azza Wa Jal and his messenger Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam, have certainty of faith.

      Taqwa is your measure of piety - the people of higher taqwa constantly think about and reflect on Allah's signs, have full trust in Allah and are more conscious of him. Many of us have Iman but not Taqwa - we believe in Allah and the Prophet Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam, but we are less aware of these truths in that our regular actions do not correlate with the Iman we have. The people of the weakest Taqwa are those whose Iman does not make them pray Salah.

      If you can comprehend this discussion on an intellectual level and you have higher taqwa that your iman manifests practically in your life, then this sort of discussion will be suitable for you. For the one who has Taqwa, his Taqwa is not anchored to or reliant on majority tafsir positions, it can exist independent of that.

      Taqwa is related to your quality of belief. When one is aware of greater evidences for the religion, ones Taqwa increases - and this can also be measured by their activity and actions ('amal).

      Good discussions on Taqwa:
      “Iman is confession with the tongue and confirmation with the heart, and that everything that was revealed by Allah in the Qur’an and everything that is authentic from the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) regarding the Shari’a and explanation [of the Qur’an] is all true. Iman is one and its adherents are in its essence the same, and the superiority [of some over others] is due to taqwa and opposing desires.”

      - Aqidah Tahawiyyah
      Rasulallah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam said, “O People! Certainly your Rabb is one, your father is one. An Arab has no virtue over a Non Arab, nor does a Non Arab have virtue over an Arab, a red skinned person is not more virtuous than a dark skinned person nor is a dark skinned person more virtuous than a red skinned person except through Taqwa. Have I conveyed the message?” They said: Rasulallah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam has conveyed the message.”

      - Musnad Ahmad Hadith 22978

      Comment


      • #4
        The clear and direct way to deal with this is to take a historical look at this matter...

        1. No-one can change a divine revelation of Allah

        2. The Gospels/Injeel and Christian texts were burnt and seized off followers of Nabi Isa Alayhis Salaam around the time of his preaching.

        The Roman Empire did this, its even acknowledged on Wikipedia.

        3. The Qur'an is a Muhaymin or (in English) a Criterion for the previous scriptures.

        This means the Qur'an is our correcting and guiding source for us, who have no Torah/Tawrat or Gospels/Injeel to read or check from

        We as Muslims must use the Qur'an, of course for our beliefs and theology.

        We know what and how to believe from it and the Sunnah.

        You can just take stories from the Qur'an and Sunnah about Prophet Isa alayhis salaam. If you want to know more - and about all the previous Prophets generally, Ibn Kathir's Stories of The Prophet is very good.

        The Hebrew Bible can be taken as a source of Prophetic history or just as a reading interest

        - they theologically mainly believe in the One Lord.

        - and a lot of their stories correlate with the Qur'an.

        Take the Book of Job, which is the story of Nabi Ayyub alayhis salaam. Its sounds very similar to the story we know from the Qur'an.
        Last edited by LailaTheMuslim; 16-09-20, 10:40 PM.
        Abu Malik at-Ash'ari reported:

        The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Cleanliness is half of faith

        and al-Hamdu Lillah (all praise and gratitude is for Allah alone) fills the scale, and Subhan Allah (Glory be to Allah)

        and al-Hamdu Lillah fill up what is between the heavens and the earth, and prayer is a light,

        and charity is proof (of one's faith)

        and endurance is a brightness and the Holy Qur'an is a proof on your behalf or against you.

        All men go out early in the morning and sell themselves, thereby setting themselves free or destroying themselves.



        حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ مَنْصُورٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَبَّانُ بْنُ هِلاَلٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبَانٌ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، أَنَّ زَيْدًا، حَدَّثَهُ أَنَّ أَبَا سَلاَّمٍ حَدَّثَهُ عَنْ أَبِي مَالِكٍ الأَشْعَرِيِّ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ الطُّهُورُ شَطْرُ الإِيمَانِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلأُ الْمِيزَانَ ‏.‏ وَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلآنِ - أَوْ تَمْلأُ - مَا بَيْنَ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَالصَّلاَةُ نُورٌ وَالصَّدَقَةُ بُرْهَانٌ وَالصَّبْرُ ضِيَاءٌ وَالْقُرْآنُ حُجَّةٌ لَكَ أَوْ عَلَيْكَ كُلُّ النَّاسِ يَغْدُو فَبَائِعٌ نَفْسَهُ فَمُعْتِقُهَا أَوْ مُوبِقُهَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏

        Reference : Sahih Muslim 223
        In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 1
        USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 2, Hadith 432
        (deprecated numbering scheme)

        أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

        Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


        Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

        Comment


        • #5
          In the Christian bible the trinity is referenced a lot, most of its Paul's own writings.


          The New Testament up to the Book of Revelations is Paul's writings.


          - this is accepted as the mainstream view, in all Christian Churches, of who wrote the New Testament.


          - Christianity don't accept the New Testament as divine revelation/word of God. Its literally seen as Paul's interpretation of Jesus.
          - The Church accept as him as the best witness among his 'apostles' -


          completely not true since he made up the 'Son of God' title unlawfully for Jesus (Nabi Isa Alayhis Salaam).

          - So the Church accept his testimony about Jesus, but they accept the New Testament as a testimony of Paul's own depiction of Jesus.

          It should be held up that the Church validated Paul's accounts and narratives on Jesus - it is not stated in Christian scholarship that the New Testament was

          written by Jesus or a word of God.

          Remember that historians and bible scholars accept that Paul instigated persecution of Christians -


          until 33-36 AD (years after Jesus left the earth), Paul systematically harassed the early Christians


          and partook in killing the apostle Saint Stephen, an early follower of Jesus


          He also brought in the the Trinity concept and the death/resurrection of Jesus to Christianity.


          - This was based on the whimsy of his one sleeping 'dream', like as small vision.


          - However, was this taught to him by Jesus?

          Why did he 'have' to introduce the idea - why was it something put into Christian teachings not by other apostles


          And it is historically well established and recorded that Jesus' Gospels were burnt and seized by the Roman Empire


          so it is really quite clear that there is unsoundness at this point - to the New Testament and Trinitarian beliefs


          - both teachings are historically unreliable.

          ~

          The crux of my issues here is that the story of the Resurrection/Easter story


          - is something that I recall when reading Surah Kahf - Chapter 18 of the Qur'an


          Two young men go seek refuge from persecution in a cave - and then there is a miracle about the time frame in which they leave the cave.

          Their then their city leaders decide to make a worship place over the cave....



          This sounds like the Easter story - where the beliefs of the Resurrection and deification of Jesus emerged from...


          In fact when the Church said that Jesus had risen from the Tomb (resurrection), it is actually from Paul's New Testament writings.


          The fact that Surah Kahf begins with condemning the Trinity and establishing the truth of Islamic Monotheism (which is the Abrahamic tradition)


          - is something I recall insofar as the overall message in Surah Kahf.

          ~


          A lot of that Chapter is about our Lord (- Allah) having True Power and being the Master of the Universe and His Creation.


          Khidr PBUH has amazing knowledge, the people of the Cave witness a great miracle, Dhul Qarnayn PBUH suppresses the hoards of Magog and Gog

          innovatively/miraculously


          - But above all else - In Surah Kahf, in all its lessons and verses, I remember this:


          Surah Kahf verse 1-

          "[All] praise is [due] to Allah, to whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth, and to Him belongs [all] praise in the Hereafter. And He is the Wise, the Acquainted."


          Last edited by LailaTheMuslim; 17-09-20, 01:24 AM.
          Abu Malik at-Ash'ari reported:

          The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Cleanliness is half of faith

          and al-Hamdu Lillah (all praise and gratitude is for Allah alone) fills the scale, and Subhan Allah (Glory be to Allah)

          and al-Hamdu Lillah fill up what is between the heavens and the earth, and prayer is a light,

          and charity is proof (of one's faith)

          and endurance is a brightness and the Holy Qur'an is a proof on your behalf or against you.

          All men go out early in the morning and sell themselves, thereby setting themselves free or destroying themselves.



          حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ مَنْصُورٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَبَّانُ بْنُ هِلاَلٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبَانٌ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، أَنَّ زَيْدًا، حَدَّثَهُ أَنَّ أَبَا سَلاَّمٍ حَدَّثَهُ عَنْ أَبِي مَالِكٍ الأَشْعَرِيِّ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ الطُّهُورُ شَطْرُ الإِيمَانِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلأُ الْمِيزَانَ ‏.‏ وَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلآنِ - أَوْ تَمْلأُ - مَا بَيْنَ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَالصَّلاَةُ نُورٌ وَالصَّدَقَةُ بُرْهَانٌ وَالصَّبْرُ ضِيَاءٌ وَالْقُرْآنُ حُجَّةٌ لَكَ أَوْ عَلَيْكَ كُلُّ النَّاسِ يَغْدُو فَبَائِعٌ نَفْسَهُ فَمُعْتِقُهَا أَوْ مُوبِقُهَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏

          Reference : Sahih Muslim 223
          In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 1
          USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 2, Hadith 432
          (deprecated numbering scheme)

          أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

          Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


          Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
            Bismillihir-Rahmanir-Raheem,

            I have noticed there is much discussion between Muslims and Christians on this forum, and some Christians and even Muslims may be unaware exactly what Muslim beliefs are regarding the Crucifixion, etc. Essentially there are majority positions and minority positions, and what we tend to do is focus on or expand on the majority positions.

            Now whilst I disagree with much the speaker in the below video says, I nevertheless recognise that this is an issue of valid difference of opinion (I would only come out to outright firmly reject as completely wrong one or two thing he says in the video, the first being on the nature of Naskh and the second is towards the end - on the topic of the Torah and infalliability of the Prophets Alayhim Salam).


            Video

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WH3xEo444I


            Insha'Allah, I will be posting my thoughts, criticisms and evidences below. Brothers and Sisters are welcome to join in the discussion, and I encourage our Christian friends to join in too.


            I've listened to both Ali Ataie's Approach and Ijaz Ahmad's criticism. I am more inclined toward Ali Ataie's Approach and I have studied Christianity pretty indepth.
            My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Cross-post of where I've given my view on this:

              Four Canonical Gospels as works of Seerah (but of ar-Rasul Isa Alayhis Salam)

              The way I've always seen the gospels we have, which I believe are referred to in the Qur'an, are like works of Seerah. If you think about it some of the earliest Seerah works of Imam Ibn Ishaq etc. correlate to the gospels. In fact there are a lot of similarities. If you view in particular the four canonical gospels that way then that would basically explain what they are.

              Do Seerah works contain Divine Revelation? Sure, in the sense that in the narrative verses are recited by the Prophet Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam. Moreover the prophetic life is living revelation in a sense. But Seerah works are there to recount to you the entire story of the Prophet Alayhis Salam, it isn't their express purpose to A) Accurately depict information from RasulAllah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam and B) Accurately convey revelation.

              There is of course some controversy around the transmission of Ibn Ishaq's Seerah, but unlike the gospels we know who wrote his Seerah down and transmitted it. But you will find Hadith in that which are weak or even fabricated, and Ibn Ishaq also includes chainless narrative. This is what occurs, as Ibn Ishaq's purpose was not to convey accurate information, but to convey a narrative with as much details as possible. Works of Seerah and Tarikh should always be viewed with this in mind - authenticity does not come first, rather conveying the narrative and as much detail as possible does.

              It should be remembered however that unlike the Seerah of Ibn Ishaq, the entire text of the gospels is chainless. Also we know who Muhammad Ibn Ishaq Rahimullah Alay is, we know lots about him and have extensive biographical information on him and who he met etc. We do not even know however who the authors of at least the four canonical gospels are...

              Nevertheless, I still think that gospels should be regarded like early Seerah works we have, and that will give people a general idea as to the material contained within, the level of authenticity and the intent of the authors. This extends to all these authored gospels, canonical or not. (And some like the so-called gospel of Barnabas are clear fabrications).

              So what happened to the Injil itself?

              Isa Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam came and conveyed revelation, in particular two we would single out: The Taurat and the Injil.

              And He will teach him scribing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel.

              (Fadil Solimani's Interpretation of al-Qur'an, Surah Ali 'Imran, Ayah 48)
              (Interpretation above mentions four things that he would be taught - al-Kitab, al-Hikmah, al-Taurat and al-Injil. Of these we know the latter two to be book/scriptural revelation. When referring to the original books we should use the Arabic terms to avoid confusion with the books currently associated with these revelations.)

              Note that we do not know the extent of these two holy books, the Taurat and Injil, as in how many verses came down that would be considered part of them. The Taurat itself was given before Isa Alayhis Salam to Musa Alayhis Salam.

              The Injil is mentioned only for Isa Alayhis Salam, so we generally assume it is a revelation that came to him especially - and this would make sense as we know that all the Ulul Azm have their scriptural/holy book revelations mentioned apart from Nuh Alayhis Salam (an interesting question occurs whether scripture/ holy book revelation starts later as opposed to revelation that even our father Adam Alayhis Salam received - the final verses of Surah al-Ala' maybe allude to this Allahu Alam).

              So our understanding is that Isa Alayhis Salam received the Injil. We know some of the content that is in it, as it is mentioned in the Qur'an, such as:

              Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah.

              And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.


              (Sahih International's Interpretation of al-Qur'an, Surah al-Fath, Ayah 29, division for clarity)
              This is not found in the Gospels in our possessions to my knowledge, although something very similar is found in the parable of the sower, which is recorded in the gospels apart from John and also in the non-canonical gospel of Thomas. It is my understanding that the gospels as Seerah works essentially go some way in preserving the message of the Injil - and this would be an example of how that looks (compare with Matthew 13: 1-23, Mark 4: 1-20, Luke 8: 4-15 and Thomas Saying 9). However they do not preserve the message completely, and I feel I can make an attempt at explaining why.

              Compare with another instance where Allah references an Ayah of His prior scripture:

              وَلَقَدْ كَتَبْنَا فِي الزَّبُورِ مِنْ بَعْدِ الذِّكْرِ أَنَّالْأَرْضَ يَرِثُهَا عِبَادِيَ الصَّالِحُونَ

              And most surely We have written in the Book, after the Reminder, that the land will be inherited by My righteous servants.

              (Qur'an, Surah al-Anbiyah, Ayah 105 Qira'ah Hafs, with Fadil Solimani's Interpretation, highlighting in red for emphasis)

              The word interpreted from the arabic as the "Book" above is the "Zabur", which refers to the revelation given to Dawud Alayhis Salam.

              Compare this with a verse from the Psalms, attributed to Dawud Alayhis Salam:



              צַדִּיקִ֥ים יִֽירְשׁוּ־אָ֑רֶץ וְיִשְׁכְּנ֖וּ לָעַ֣ד עָלֶֽיהָ׃


              ṣad-dî-qîm yî-rə-šū- ’ā-reṣ; wə-yiš-kə-nū lā-‘aḏ ‘ā-le-hā.

              The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

              - Psalms 37:29, with Transliteration from Here and English from KJV

              The meanings of the verses are essentially identical to the first clause of the verse in Psalms, with only a few different words being used and one word extra in the Arabic, although some words are essentially identical (Yarithu vs yî-rə-šū-, Ardh vs ’ā-reṣ). The above is thus arguably an example of a verse from the Hebrew Bible which we can confirm is divine speech.

              (Note: The Hebrew word Saddiqim is a false friend to the Arabic of the same sounding word.)

              If we compare the above with the example of Allah Azza Wa Jal referring to what he revealed of the Injil, we notice a marked difference - in one example we cannot claim (that the parable of the sower) is exactly what is being referred to by Rab al-Alamin Azza Wa Jal in the Qur'an, but in another we can easily make this claim.

              This for me reinforces the nature of the gospels we have - they are Seerah works which go some way to preseving the meanings of the Injil even if they do not preserve them well (unlike the example given of the verse from the Psalms).

              So what exactly happened to the Injil revealed to Isa Alayhis Salam? It is clear he taught it, and I would even quote from the Gospels the following as evidence for this:

              And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.

              - Matthew 4:23 KJV
              And note that in the greek, the word used for Gospel here is Evangelion - which corresponds to the Arabic Injil.

              What was this "Evangelion" (Injil) of the Kingdom that Isa Alayhis Salam is reported to be teaching according to the above? Note that this "Gospel" of Mathew is reporting Isa Alayhis Salam teaching the Gospel. Clearly even from what they have of Isa Alayhis Salam's teachings, we can conclude there was some message/teaching or revelation known as the Injil (good news i.e. the good news of Jannah for the believers as well as worldly dominion ref. to the second coming) which Isa Alayhis Salam taught to the Hawariyyin (disciples) and others.

              Some of this was loosely preserved in the Gospels (inc. the four canonical ones) that we possess today. I think the persecution of the Early (true) Christians, as documented also in the Qur'an, helped to destroy the transmission of this scripture. Then, similar to the Buddhist councils, there were organised efforts to canonise scripture and destroy other writings and teachings as heresy (e.g. refer to Ireneus etc.)


              In my view, the now extinct Ebionites are essentially the correct Christian sect, although some of them reportedly denied the virgin birth (others didn't). The Ebionites were known for their opposition to Paul, accusing him of Apostasy. They hold the same beliefs with regards to Isa Alayhis Salam that we do - that he was a Prophet, not denying him like the Jews nor going to the other extreme of the Pauline Christians. From our literature it seems they died out during the lifetime of Salman al-Farisi Radiyallahu An, and I don't doubt this was the sect of Waraqah Ibn Nawfal Radiayallahu An.

              One thing that confirms that the Ebionites are likely the true believers in Isa Alayhis Salam is that their name derives from the fact that they were mostly composed of the poor - and we know that the poor and dejected are the significant followers of any Prophet (refer to the Hadith of Abu Sufyan where he relates his meeting with Heraclius).


              Not all Christian liturgical literature can be included in this scenario however. The writings of Paul - which predate the canonical gospels and form the earliest references of canonical teachings of Isa Alayhis Salam according to the majority of Christians - cannot be considered in the same vein. They are more the theological works of Paul which most of Christianity relies upon, they do not seek to document Isa Alayhis Salam's preaching.

              The original Injil would have been in Aramaic, as whilst Isa Alayhis Salam certainly could have known other languages, to actually teach to the common jews around him he would need to speak in Aramaic. One can infer that only the priestly class would know Hebrew and only the secularly educated Jews would know Greek or Latin. Divine revelation is first and foremost a teaching and needs to be understood by the immediate target audience easily (and we can see this in the concession of the other Ahruf of the Qur'an).

              In commentary of the Parable of the Sower according to the non-Canonical gospel of Thomas, a Christian academic writes the following:

              The statement that the first lot of seed fell 'on' (not 'by') the road probably reflects the sense of the Aramaic preposition used by Jesus in telling the parable (the preposition may be rendered 'on' or 'by' according to the context)

              - Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament by Frederick Bruce, p. 116
              I knew a Syrian Christian Arab once who recounted to me with pride that they carry out much of their rituals in Aramaic which she understood to be language of Isa Alayhis Salam.

              This makes sense for why even as a sort of Seerah work, the four Gospels fail to accurately recount divine speech - it is due in part to the problem of translating from Aramaic to Greek (as well changes in transmission which are natural and seen regularly in weak narrators of Hadith and divergences are even seen in reliable, strong memoried narrators - we have to remember many are narrating from meaning).

              But what about the verses in the Qur'an when Allah asks the Christians to look at their own Book?

              This is the reason why Shaykh Ali Ataie adopts his Madhab on this issue - he finds it strange that Allah Azza Wa Jal would call them to look at their own books if they haven't been preserved. I for one do not find this strange at all - it makes sense to me.

              The scriptures are not so corrupted that they have no truth in them, rather the correct teachings and the prophecy of RasulAllah Alayhis Salam to come can be found in them. Rather other things have been added in, mistranslated, distorted etc.

              Sometimes these are unintentional, other times they may be intentional. Most/all of the intentional distortions we can root out e.g. the well accepted addition of probably the only clear reference to a certain doctrine of Shirk in one of the gospels (i.e. even Christian academics and their denominations accept it is a later addition). Once we've rooted these out we are left with a text which mainly suffers from unintentional historical mistransmission due to the nature of the text rather than deliberate distortion.

              Of course the theological ideas of the writers of these works (who would have read/been influenced by Paul) do fall into their narrating, but I do not suspect that they themselves intentionally fabricated lies against what Isa Alayhis Salam himself said - they merely took this from their sources. When reading the Canonical Gospels one needs to pay attention therefore to what Isa Alayhis Salam is himself reported as saying, not what the authors or others are reported as saying.

              Yes I'd agree with AmantuBillahi that the addition at the beginning of John is not revelation, and contains multiple instances of Kufr and Shirk. It is merely the author writing down his theological disbelief of doctrine to start his work as a type of supplication. In most works of Islamic literature, and even works of the Muslim scientists and mathematicians such as the work of al-Kharizmi, we see similar forms of supplication at the start, albeit without Kufr and Shirk, with pure Tawhid instead.

              We have clear evidence for the fact that the gospel they have is not the same Injil as Isa Alayhis Salam, yet can still be used to arrive at the truth in the following verse of Allah's Kalam:

              الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الْأُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِنْدَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنْجِيلِ يَأْمُرُهُمْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَائِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالْأَغْلَالَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُوا النُّورَ الَّذِي أُنْزِلَ مَعَهُ ۙ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ
              Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written [i.e., described] in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and prohibits them from what is wrong and makes lawful for them what is good and forbids them from what is evil and relieves them of their burden1 and the shackles which were upon them.2 So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.

              (Qur'an, Surah al-A'raf Ayah 157 Qira'ah Hafs, with Sahih International's Interpretation, highlighting in red for emphasis)
              This clearly indicates that Allah is making a distinction between the Taurat and Injil that they possess, which he says the believers amongst them will find the Prophecy in, verses the Taurat and Injil as revealed to Musa and Isa Alayhim Salam. The Taurat and Injil that is "with them" is suitable for them to refer to for such prophecies (and if they disbelieve and remain as Jews and Christians then they should judge by what remains of the laws of those) but are not the pure uncorrupted divine speech.

              So I respectfully disagree with Shaykh Ali Ataei's approach, even if I think it is in its Asl a valid Madhab, and have given an alternate view of what the Injil may be and how it relates to the gospels with us today. Insha'Allah Allah who alone is al-Alim will increase us in knowledge of these matters and endow us wisdom and incite.

              In summary, Allah knows best regarding the nature of his revelation to Isa Alayhis Salam. What we say with certainty is mentioned in the Qur'an and that is that Isa Alayhis Salam was taught the Injil, he taught pure monotheism and submission and was a devout and obedient slave of Allah, and one of the noblest of the messengers. He performed many miracles to show evidence to Bani Isra'il of his prophecy, but ultimately he was rejected by a contingent of them, another contingent made a mockery of his teachings by corrupting them into idolatry and only a few kept to the pure Tawhid he Alayhis Salam taught.

              May Allah bless Isa Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam, his noble slave and messenger and his word who will prove true against the disbelievers soon.

              Comment


              • #8
                Alhamdulillah! I listened to this broadcast and enjoyed it thoroughly. Thank you, brother, for posting it here.

                Several years ago, I was discussing the issue of the crucifixion with the members here. One of the most respected brothers here at that time (Moayidd) told me that I should just stick with what the tafsir (commentary) of Ibn Kathir said about the crucifixion. I was not familiar with that, so I searched it out and found the following article which covers all that Ibn Kathir wrote about the crucifixion:

                Praise be to Allaah.

                The Qur’aan states that ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) was not crucified or killed (by the Jews), and that he was lifted up to heaven. There is no text of the Revelation that tells us the details of what happened on the day when that was made to appear to the Jews, but there is a saheeh report from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messiah (peace be upon him) said to those of his companions who were with him in the house: “Which of you will be made to look like me and be killed in my stead, and he will be with me in the same level as me (in Paradise)?”

                A young man who was one of the youngest of them stood up, and he said to him: “Sit down.” Then he repeated it and that young man stood up again, and he said: “Sit down.” Then he repeated it again and that young man stood up and said, “I (will do it).” He said: “You are the one.” So he was caused to look like ‘Eesa and ‘Eesa was lifted up from a window in the house to heaven. Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Tafseer (4/337), commenting on this report: This is a saheeh isnaad going back to Ibn ‘Abbaas. Similarly it was narrated from more than one of the salaf that he said to them: “Which of you will be made to look like me and be killed in my stead, and he will be my companion in Paradise?” End quote.

                Then he (may Allaah have mercy on him) said (4/341): Ibn Jareer favoured the view that all of his companions were made to look like ‘Eesa:

                This was mentioned in a report narrated from Wahb ibn Munabbih which was narrated by Ibn Jareer (may Allaah have mercy on him) and quoted by Ibn Katheer (4/337), in which it states that when they surrounded ‘Eesa and his companions and entered upon them, “Allaah made them all appear in the form of ‘Eesa and they said to them, ‘You have bewitched us; send forth to us ‘Eesa or we will kill you all,’ until they sent forth one of their number after ‘Eesa promised Paradise to him, and they took him and crucified him.”

                But Ibn Katheer said after that: This is a very strange story. End quote.

                He also (may Allaah have mercy on him) said (4/341): Some of the Christians claim that Judas Iscariot – who is the one who led the Jews to ‘Eesa – is the one who was made to look like ‘Eesa so they crucified him, and he said: I am not the one you want, I am the one who led you to him. Allaah knows best what really happened. End quote.

                With that, Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) concluded his discussion of this topic: Allaah knows best what really happened.
                (end of article)

                So, Ibn Kathir did not say anything very definitive as to what EXACTLY happened at the cross. Accordingly there are several theories among Muslims: some believe one of the three variations mentioned above, that one of the young disciples of Jesus was made to look like him, or that they all were made to look like him, or that Judas was made to look like Jesus. Others believe it was actually Jesus that was on the cross, but that he did not fully die and later resuscitated after he was taken off the cross.

                Pretty much all modern Christians think Jesus was crucified, died, and was resurrected, but the Apocalyptic Gospel of Peter and the (first) Apocalypse of James, found in Nag Hammadi, both show that some early Christians believed that Jesus himself was not killed. Other apocalyptic writings of the time also show varying beliefs that Jesus did not die on the cross.

                Funny that the belief put forward by Ibn Kathir about all the disciples being made to look like Jesus actually reflects the New Testament teaching that all disciples are being transformed into the image of Messiah and that they all must bear their own cross!

                The New Testament also teaches specifically that God made Jesus “to be SIN for us”, a very odd thought indeed! Some try to explain that away by saying he was a sin offering for us, but the crucifixion of Messiah in no way parallels the sin offerings of the Old Testament, in which the animals were humanely slaughtered. Instead, the New Testament pictures Messiah being beaten with a whip, spit upon, slapped, had his beard pulled out, and he was cruelly crucified, it was in no way a sin OFFERING, but rather was a great example of how SIN should be treated if it were personified.

                One of my most intense experiences in the Christian church happened when a man got up and testified “I’m SO GLAD that Jesus died for my sins…” My immediate thought then and now is, should we not rather be ashamed that such an awful thing had to happen, that the most wonderful person who ever lived would be treated so terribly because of OUR sins?

                In truth, IF “God MADE Jesus to BE sin” in every sense of the word, then it was not the pure and holy prophet who suffered on the cross, but rather the personification of sin, which did not even remotely resemble the character of Jesus. There is some comfort in that thought, which parallels the wording of The Apocalypse of Peter where Jesus is quoted as saying “He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus, but this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness”.

                So there you can see that there is also a Christian understanding of a substitution being made for Jesus on the cross, which is confirmed by New Testament scripture. While all of these thoughts cannot answer every question on the subject, let us at least and at last conclude, as did Ibn Kathir: Allah knows best what really happened.
                Last edited by eldon; 17-04-21, 03:10 AM.
                The Quran is a plain statement to men, a guidance and instruction to those who fear Allah, So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith. 3:138, 139 http://www.scribd.com/doc/116767121/...rlasting-Gospe

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