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How was the Torah preserved.

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  • How was the Torah preserved.

    When was the Torah allegedly corrupted? By whom? And for what reason? Is it enough to accept the Torah has been corrupted with no proof?

    How do we know that the Torah we have today is the same text given on Mount Sinai?

    The Torah was originally dictated from God to Moses, letter for letter. From there, the Midrash (Devarim Rabba 9:9) tells us:
    Before his death, Moses wrote 13 Torah Scrolls. Twelve of these were distributed to each of the 12 Tribes. The 13th was placed in the Ark of the Covenant (with the Tablets). If anyone would come and attempt to rewrite or falsify the Torah, the one in the Ark would "testify" against him. (Likewise, if he had access to the scroll in the Ark and tried to falsify it, the distributed copies would "testify" against him.)
    How were the new scrolls verified? An authentic "proof text" was always kept in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, against which all other scrolls would be checked. Following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, the Sages would periodically perform global checks to weed out any scribal errors. Writing a Torah Scroll

    To eliminate any chance of human error, the Talmud enumerates more than 20 factors mandatory for a Torah scroll to be considered "kosher." This is the Torah's built-in security system. Should any one of these factors be lacking, it does not possess the sanctity of a Torah scroll, and is not to be used for a public Torah reading.

    The meticulous process of hand-copying a scroll takes about 2,000 hours (a full-time job for one year). Throughout the centuries, Jewish scribes have adhered to the following guidelines:
    • A Torah Scroll is disqualified if even a single letter is added.
    • A Torah Scroll is disqualified if even a single letter is deleted.
    • The scribe must be a learned, pious Jew, who has undergone special training and certification.
    • All materials (parchment, ink, quill) must conform to strict specifications, and be prepared specifically for the purpose of writing a Torah Scroll.
    • The scribe may not write even one letter into a Torah Scroll by heart. Rather, he must have a second, kosher scroll opened before him at all times.
    • The scribe must pronounce every word out loud before copying it from the correct text.
    • Every letter must have sufficient white space surrounding it. If one letter touched another in any spot, it invalidates the entire scroll.
    • If a single letter was so marred that it cannot be read at all, or resembles another letter (whether the defect is in the writing, or is due to a hole, tear or smudge), this invalidates the entire scroll. Each letter must be sufficiently legible so that even an ordinary schoolchild could distinguish it from other, similar letters.
    • The scribe must put precise space between words, so that one word will not look like two words, or two words look like one word.
    • The scribe must not alter the design of the sections, and must conform to particular line-lengths and paragraph configurations.
    • A Torah Scroll in which any mistake has been found, cannot be used, and must be fixed within 30 days, or buried.
    Success of the System

    Maintaining the accuracy of any document as ancient and as large as the Torah is very challenging even under the best of circumstances.

    But consider that throughout history, Jewish communities were subject to widespread persecutions and exile. Over the last 2,000 years, Jews have been spread to the four corners of the world, from Yemen to Poland, from Australia to Alaska.

    Other historical factors make the accurate transmission of the Torah all the more difficult. For example, the destruction of the Temple 1,900 years ago saw the dissolution of the Sanhedrin, the Jewish central authority which traditionally would unify the Jewish people in case of any disagreements.

    Let’s investigate the facts as we have them today. If we collect the oldest Torah scrolls and compare them, we can see if any garbling exists, and if so, how much.

    How many letters are there in the Torah? 304,805 letters (or approximately 79,000 words).

    If you were to guess, how many letters of these 304,805 do you think are in question? (Most people guess anywhere from 25 to 1,000 letters.)

    The fact is, that after all the trials and tribulations, communal dislocations and persecutions, only the Yemenite Torah scrolls contain any difference from the rest of world Jewry. A total of nine letter-differences are found in their scrolls.

    These are all spelling differences. In no case do they change the meaning of the word. For example, how would you spell the word "color?" In America, it's spelled C-O-L-O-R. But in England, it's spelled with a "u," C-O-L-O-U-R.

    Such is the nature of the few spelling differences between Torah scrolls today. The results over thousands of years are remarkable!

  • #2
    I shall, God-willing, argue to prove that the Taurat was not preserved. I define not preserved as if anything was added or redacted from the Torah which caused new meaning to be added or redacted. I do not define preserved as difference in wording/spelling. I am arguing quite simply that the Torah we have today is not the Taurat of Musa Alayhis-salatu wa-Salam. I am not arguing that a later corrupted Torah was not preserved. Please be wary of this difference.

    Fist let's start with some definitions.


    Torah: When I use the word Torah, I refer to the scripture of the Jews as it is today and throughout history since its corruption. This is a scripture which at one point in time, before corruption, would be what I refer to as the Taurat i.e. the divine revelation given to Musa Alayhis Salam.

    Taurat: Arabic for Torah. I will utilise the difference of arabic transliteration to help distinguish between the two. I define the Taurat as that which was revealed to Musa Alayhis Salam, that which some Jews think is preserved and that which you believe is preserved. I believe it is the literal word of God, as is the Quran, and contains a reminder, ordanances and laws for the tribes of Israel.

    Just to clarify, I am using the Arabic Taurat to refer to the uncorrupted revelation to Moses, whereas I am using the word Torah to refer to the popular, current and historical form.
    My argument is that Taurat =/= Torah, whereas your argument is Taurat = Torah. You may feel free to use same or different terminology to me, it doesn't matter as you believe it is preserved.

    Corrupted: Any difference apparent in scripture that is not apparent in the form it was revealed in, changing the meaning by adding, taking away or substituting the text. Corruption does not mean all the teachings of the text are lost or gone, in fact corruption can be major or minor, which I will not comment on.

    What does not count as corruption: Spelling differences (if I am being strict these should count if not officially sanctioned from the source, but I will give leeway for this argument), wording differences (only where meaning is the same), phrasing differences (only where the meaning is the same) and minor scribal errors (usually detected as such by academics, but generally identified as small mistakes confined to a single manuscript which were obviously made during copying, which do not affect other manuscripts).

    Preserved: Completely free of corruption. In our case the Torah is preserved if Taurat = Torah.

    First before we begin, I will give an overview of what my arguments will focus around, so you know what to expect, and I will ask you some preliminary questions about what you have written.

    Outline of my arguments

    I will focus my efforts to disprove your hypothesis through three main arguments which I will explain, flesh out with evidence and which I expect you to question me on.
    1. The Argument from History
    2. The Argument from Contradictions
    3. The Argument from Language and Wording

    Opening Request

    The source you have given is a website. Please state why that website as a source is credible and why I should trust its every claim, and where I can go/look to verify all its claims.

    As I am making the claim, the burden of proof is upon me, however you have provided me with some "evidence" and I want to verify this "evidence".


    • #3
      Torah is somehow a revelation for the Jews and the Christians. They know how and why to pull out their belief from it.
      There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.


      • #4
        You said
        The Torah was originally dictated from God to Moses, letter for letter.

        Why is it in the version of the torah you have today musa alayhis Salam his death and burial is chronicled

        Dont get me wrong I agree the taurat was revealed to musa alayhis Salam but what you have today has been altered

        the lies that the prophets alayhis Salam have been slandered with in the torah are proof enough it's been altered. Incest drunkenness idolatry. If Donald Trump slept with his daughter I shudder to think what the global reaction would be. He would go down in history as a despicable scumbag.

        Why then you expect us to believe that about the best of creation the guides leading us to Allah

        I'm sorry but your book today has lies in it. Accept that fact or not that's on you

        Interesting you didn't make a thread about the gospel being preserved letter for letter. Why was that?
        Last edited by eesa the kiwi; 30-01-20, 10:08 AM.
        "My servants, you who have transgressed against yourselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Truly Allah forgives all wrong actions. He is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful." (Surat az-Zumar: 53)


        • #5
          Reasons to believe in the corruption of the Torah:

          Muslims Search Engine !
          And those who disbelieved will then say, " Our Lord, show us those who misled us of the jinn and mankind ,so we may put them under our feet that they will be among the lowest."