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  • Our Lady of Guadalupe

    Hey so I'm wondering what to say about the Marian Apparition to St. Juan Diego. Basically, Mary allegedly appeared to a Mexican Convert to Catholicism in 1531. She said to build a church on Tepeyac hill in her name. This sounds a little shady if you ask me, after all, why would a follower of God wish that honor on herself? Juan Diego (the Catholic) went to the bishop and told him. The bishop asked for a sign and later when Juan Diego was looking for a priest to visit his dying uncle, he saw her again and told her what happened. She told him to pick some roses and bring them to the bishop in his tilma (cloak); roses were not in season but he found many, they are also a symbol of Mary. When he poured out the roses the bishop bowed down because an image of the virgin mary was on the cloak. This image is said not to have any stroke marks and microscopic images of Juan Diego and the bishop in her eyes. It is also on cactus fibers that last 20-25 years but still here 500 years later. Further, it has had acid spilled on it and the surrounding area blown up. How can I address this seemingly miraculous occasion. I'm sure you guys have some answer.
    And if you should count the favors of Allah, you could not enumerate them. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    Holy Qur'an 16:18

  • #2
    this story is certainly fabricated.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ottoman View Post
      this story is certainly fabricated.
      I'll check wikipedia, there is usually a section for criticism of this stuff.
      And if you should count the favors of Allah, you could not enumerate them. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

      Holy Qur'an 16:18

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by catholic61718 View Post
        I'll check wikipedia, there is usually a section for criticism of this stuff.
        Why bother with Wikipedia.. If you read your post carefully you will realize it is fabricated. Just read the story in your post carefully and (hopefully) you will see.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by catholic61718 View Post
          Hey so I'm wondering what to say about the Marian Apparition to St. Juan Diego. Basically, Mary allegedly appeared to a Mexican Convert to Catholicism in 1531. She said to build a church on Tepeyac hill in her name. This sounds a little shady if you ask me, after all, why would a follower of God wish that honor on herself? Juan Diego (the Catholic) went to the bishop and told him. The bishop asked for a sign and later when Juan Diego was looking for a priest to visit his dying uncle, he saw her again and told her what happened. She told him to pick some roses and bring them to the bishop in his tilma (cloak); roses were not in season but he found many, they are also a symbol of Mary. When he poured out the roses the bishop bowed down because an image of the virgin mary was on the cloak. This image is said not to have any stroke marks and microscopic images of Juan Diego and the bishop in her eyes. It is also on cactus fibers that last 20-25 years but still here 500 years later. Further, it has had acid spilled on it and the surrounding area blown up. How can I address this seemingly miraculous occasion. I'm sure you guys have some answer.
          وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

          And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


          أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

          Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


          Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

          Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

          Comment


          • #6
            Yeah I was thinking. About Ottoman's posts as well. Ever since I decided to become Catholic they expect pure faith at a level; I was taught why they believe in confession, baptism for the forgiveness of sins, real presence, etc. but once it got to other things it was different. When it came to "Hail holy queen mother of mercy our life our sweetness and our hope" (haily holy queen, pretty common prayer often said at end of rosary) I remember asking why she would be called our life, if it is taught IN THE SCRIPTURES CHOSEN BY THE CHURCH 350 YEARS AFTER JESUS that Isa is the "way the truth and the LIFE". That seems radically wrong to say even from a Christian perspective. When I asked about this, Mary being queen of heaven and earth, etc. they just said "we don't have to explain." Also, some saints are just legends with no historical proof. I also recall that older saints often have legends around them. Further, the Church points to a lineage of Bishops of Rome going back to Peter as proof of the papacy but for a long time the Bishop of Rome was basically any old bishop. They seem to speak half truths and leave things out a lot to get points across. It is not something I like. I would like to say the Catholicism and Witchcraft thing is dissaproved of by any Catholic except those catholics. A lot of the times what happened is that Africans were brought to latin america to be slaves on plantations and (similarly to what they did to African american slave Muslims) were forced to convert, except these folks retained their practices under a veil. They worshiped their gods under the names of saints. This is basically what santeria, voodoo, candomble, etc. is. As for the cartels, some of them have this "folk saint" who I hear is based on the aztec goddess of death named "santa muerta". I am not defending the Church just explaining what is going there. I have a long history of Catholics not wanting to explain doctrine. Also, they say that Mary can never be loved enough. I'm not going to lie, I liked the Virgin Mary, but I always felt the Church had to take it too far. The rosary has often felt fruitless to me and I don't pray it anymore.
            And if you should count the favors of Allah, you could not enumerate them. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

            Holy Qur'an 16:18

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by catholic61718 View Post

              Yeah I was thinking. About Ottoman's posts as well. Ever since I decided to become Catholic they expect pure faith at a level; I was taught why they believe in confession, baptism for the forgiveness of sins, real presence, etc. but once it got to other things it was different. When it came to "Hail holy queen mother of mercy our life our sweetness and our hope" (haily holy queen, pretty common prayer often said at end of rosary) I remember asking why she would be called our life, if it is taught IN THE SCRIPTURES CHOSEN BY THE CHURCH 350 YEARS AFTER JESUS that Isa is the "way the truth and the LIFE". That seems radically wrong to say even from a Christian perspective. When I asked about this, Mary being queen of heaven and earth, etc. they just said "we don't have to explain." Also, some saints are just legends with no historical proof. I also recall that older saints often have legends around them. Further, the Church points to a lineage of Bishops of Rome going back to Peter as proof of the papacy but for a long time the Bishop of Rome was basically any old bishop. They seem to speak half truths and leave things out a lot to get points across. It is not something I like. I would like to say the Catholicism and Witchcraft thing is dissaproved of by any Catholic except those catholics. A lot of the times what happened is that Africans were brought to latin america to be slaves on plantations and (similarly to what they did to African american slave Muslims) were forced to convert, except these folks retained their practices under a veil. They worshiped their gods under the names of saints. This is basically what santeria, voodoo, candomble, etc. is. As for the cartels, some of them have this "folk saint" who I hear is based on the aztec goddess of death named "santa muerta". I am not defending the Church just explaining what is going there. I have a long history of Catholics not wanting to explain doctrine. Also, they say that Mary can never be loved enough. I'm not going to lie, I liked the Virgin Mary, but I always felt the Church had to take it too far. The rosary has often felt fruitless to me and I don't pray it anymore.
              Why do you still believe in Catholicism, those are very challenging thoughts you have to the religion. I would not call myself a believer of a faith if I am critical of its central tenets in such a way to be frank.
              وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

              And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


              أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

              Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


              Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

              Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

              Comment


              • #8
                What's not lies and I'm guessing most is is shayateen messing with the idolaters minds to confirm polytheism in their hearts

                Pay no attention to this feeble plot of the shayateen
                "My servants, you who have transgressed against yourselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Truly Allah forgives all wrong actions. He is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful." (Surat az-Zumar: 53)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post

                  Why do you still believe in Catholicism, those are very challenging thoughts you have to the religion. I would not call myself a believer of a faith if I am critical of its central tenets in such a way to be frank.
                  I am kind of exploring still. I think Islam may be the Truth but I'm not sure. Am I being anti-Catholic? Are you angry at me?
                  And if you should count the favors of Allah, you could not enumerate them. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

                  Holy Qur'an 16:18

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by catholic61718 View Post

                    I am kind of exploring still. I think Islam may be the Truth but I'm not sure. Am I being anti-Catholic? Are you angry at me?
                    Nooo lol. I am not angry, did you think I was catholic? Lol my name says Muslim dude :)

                    I was just trying to get you to understand my thoughts, I am so sorry if I came across aggressive at any point.
                    وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

                    And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


                    أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

                    Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


                    Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

                    Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post

                      Nooo lol. I am not angry, did you think I was catholic? Lol my name says Muslim dude :)

                      I was just trying to get you to understand my thoughts, I am so sorry if I came across aggressive at any point.
                      No you did not. I thought you thought I took it too far and was being over-aggressive to Catholicism. I feel very protestant the way I am thinking of the Church right now even though I am not and ever since I became Catholic I had a list of religions in order.

                      If I'm not Catholic I'm going to be:
                      1. Orthodox Christian
                      2. Muslim
                      3. Orthodox Jew
                      4. LDS
                      5. Protestant
                      As you can see from my above comments, the things I've been doubting would also rule out orthodoxy so that puts islam next in line, plus these doubts were found only after reading the Noble Qur'an.
                      And if you should count the favors of Allah, you could not enumerate them. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

                      Holy Qur'an 16:18

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by catholic61718 View Post

                        No you did not. I thought you thought I took it too far and was being over-aggressive to Catholicism. I feel very protestant the way I am thinking of the Church right now even though I am not and ever since I became Catholic I had a list of religions in order.

                        If I'm not Catholic I'm going to be:
                        1. Orthodox Christian
                        2. Muslim
                        3. Orthodox Jew
                        4. LDS
                        5. Protestant
                        As you can see from my above comments, the things I've been doubting would also rule out orthodoxy so that puts islam next in line, plus these doubts were found only after reading the Noble Qur'an.
                        Ok. I just want you to know that there is no compulsion in religion, according to the second chapter of the Qur'an. Please don't feel rushed at all in your stay here.

                        I ask God to bless your heart and mind and put you on the correct path forever, ameen.

                        Would you be able to have a quick peep at this thread, and let me know your thoughts:

                        https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/li...-a-long-thread
                        وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

                        And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


                        أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

                        Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


                        Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

                        Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post

                          Would you be able to have a quick peep at this thread, and let me know your thoughts:

                          https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/li...-a-long-thread
                          Yes miss, that was neat. I have read of other miracles in the Qur'an and have read of a hadith that says there are 360 joints. It is mainly attachment to Catholicism and fear of commitment that hinders me from converting. I sent an email to a mosque last night but they haven't replied
                          And if you should count the favors of Allah, you could not enumerate them. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

                          Holy Qur'an 16:18

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by catholic61718 View Post

                            Yes miss, that was neat. I have read of other miracles in the Qur'an and have read of a hadith that says there are 360 joints. It is mainly attachment to Catholicism and fear of commitment that hinders me from converting. I sent an email to a mosque last night but they haven't replied
                            No worries :)

                            Sorry to ask, but what were you asking the mosque, is it something we can help you more quickly with over here. We have a forum Islamic scholar, perhaps I can message him your question?

                            No problemo to that if its private.
                            وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

                            And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


                            أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

                            Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


                            Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

                            Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post

                              No worries :)

                              Sorry to ask, but what were you asking the mosque, is it something we can help you more quickly with over here. We have a forum Islamic scholar, perhaps I can message him your question?

                              No problemo to that if its private.
                              I asked about where I can learn more about Islam and how I can know the prophets all taught the same message. Thank you miss
                              And if you should count the favors of Allah, you could not enumerate them. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

                              Holy Qur'an 16:18

                              Comment

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