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  • #16
    Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post

    She is a model example to the believer. We don't worship her but derive teachings and meanings from her story.

    Ya Allah send her peace and blessings ameen
    What makes Mary a model example? Above for example, Sarah, the wife of Abraham who was also blessed by God with a miraculous birth. What teachings do you as a Muslim derive from her story
    ¬*
    you are right not to worship her.¬*

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    • #17
      Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post

      Does that mean in your understanding, that God, The Creator, whom you guys call 'The Father' was running the affairs of the earth while Jesus was a baby?

      Doesn't that mean you believe in two Gods instead of one?

      I know your gonna say one manifests in the other or something like that, but that sounds more pagan than abrahamic.
      God the Creator is the eternal power behind all creation, I donít see why the period while Jesus was a baby has relevance. I mean eternal is what it says.. there was and never will be a time when God ceases to be the power behind all.¬*

      čNo, it means there is ONE God. I feel maybe you are confusing the human person Jesus as akin to a God. Thatís not what the Bible teaches or what Christians believe. Not sure what you mean by one manifests in the other.¬*

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      • #18
        I was reading a book i will try to find an English translation for it In Shaa Allah. The author tackles a very important aspect that always lead to deviation or athesim which is "the humannsee of God" dealing/ imagine God as a human. We, the humans, are limited. We tend to deal with everything around us as humans because we can't fully realize that God is perfect, he has the full power and he can't be compared to anyone or anything. We dealt with animals as humans. We might think they are crying because the lost their beloved ones while in fact we don't know the language of animals or how do they communicate or feel. The Abyssinians (Ethiopians) see their god as flat-nosed, while the Thracians give him red hair and blue eyes Astghafiruallah.
        I think this is one of the main reasons why the christians deviated. They wanted to see God like them ( a human). Jesus never mentioned that he is God or asked people to worship him.
        Sunhanallah eating and drinking is considered a weakness because we eat and drink out of need.
        God doesn't need to eat or drink because he is perfect and complete. Can you worship something that you consider to be weak? I don't know how a normal person can think that jesus ( a human) is God.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Farah. A View Post
          I was reading a book i will try to find an English translation for it In Shaa Allah. The author tackles a very important aspect that always lead to deviation or athesim which is "the humannsee of God" dealing/ imagine God as a human. We, the humans, are limited. We tend to deal with everything around us as humans because we can't fully realize that God is perfect, he has the full power and he can't be compared to anyone or anything. We dealt with animals as humans. We might think they are crying because the lost their beloved ones while in fact we don't know the language of animals or how do they communicate or feel. The Abyssinians (Ethiopians) see their god as flat-nosed, while the Thracians give him red hair and blue eyes Astghafiruallah.
          I think this is one of the main reasons why the christians deviated. They wanted to see God like them ( a human). Jesus never mentioned that he is God or asked people to worship him.
          Sunhanallah eating and drinking is considered a weakness because we eat and drink out of need.
          God doesn't need to eat or drink because he is perfect and complete. Can you worship something that you consider to be weak? I don't know how a normal person can think that jesus ( a human) is God.
          God the father is a relational being not distant. However, the Christian view of God is nothing like human. Christians believe God is incomparable, omniscient, omnipotent and ¬* Omnipresent. Far removed from any human qualities. The key to understanding the Christian concept of God is - love. Not the puny emotion humans refer to as love, but the pure absolute all powerful love behind all creation.¬*

          Since when has eating and drinking been considered a weakness? Itís a necessity for human survival not a weakness. As itís not applicable to God who as a driving force does not require food or drink to sustain, your point is moot.¬*

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Pip1 View Post

            God the father is a relational being not distant. However, the Christian view of God is nothing like human. Christians believe God is incomparable, omniscient, omnipotent and ¬* Omnipresent. Far removed from any human qualities. The key to understanding the Christian concept of God is - love. Not the puny emotion humans refer to as love, but the pure absolute all powerful love behind all creation.¬*

            Since when has eating and drinking been considered a weakness? Itís a necessity for human survival not a weakness. As itís not applicable to God who as a driving force does not require food or drink to sustain, your point is moot.¬*
            See i didn't say anything. You, yourself, said it.
            you said God is incomparable and removed from any human qualities. Yet you still claim that jesus is God. You say God is one but talk about trinity. You just want to argue. You are blinded. The truth is right infront you. I didn't qoute you because i am not here to argue with you. I am just asking you to open up your mind and read. Stop arguing. It is useless.


            ​​​​​it is a weakness because you said it is a necessity for us to survive. It completes us. While God is complete. He doesn't need to eat or drink. Jesus was a human. He eats and drinks like a normal human. Without it he would die. If you still think that jesus is God then you have a problem. You are refuting yourself.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Pip1 View Post

              What makes Mary a model example? Above for example, Sarah, the wife of Abraham who was also blessed by God with a miraculous birth. What teachings do you as a Muslim derive from her story
              ¬*
              you are right not to worship her.¬*
              Mary alayhis salaam is taught to be in Islam as one of the most pious women, also before Jesus peace be him's birth she is said in the Qur'an to be pious and always worshipping Allah. She had a mirhab - a room- that Zakariah built for her just for her to worship peacefully.
              وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

              And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


              أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

              Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


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              • #22
                I think there is a slight misunderstanding here, as Christians and Muslims we beleive that a person is more than just a body you can see. There is a soul animating your body, that is the real You. The soul is eternal and will not die. When you understand that two objections fall:
                1. God and Human "contradiction". Jesus was God in that the soul animating the body was God. However, the body that needs to eat and drink is obviously simply human. You can ask why Gid would do such a thing, and that's a fair question. But there really is no logical contradiction involved.
                2. God apparently dying. Since the soul was God, the body dying does not mean God died at all. In fact, even when you die you will not cease existing, you'll live on, so why wouldn't God!

                So there is no contradiction, it's just a matter of WHY??? Why would the creator of the universe come to die for one one of his creation?? The answer is God like love. I dont know of any other way to put it. It seems arrogant to say that a being so great would die for someone so pitiful. But if we truly have a great veiw of God, we will understand him as the most great, most majestic, yet most loving and most self sacrificial being in the universe.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Pip1 View Post

                  God the father is a relational being not distant.
                  G-d the father IS G-d
                  The confusion arises from the use of the word "son".
                  It seems to imply a "family relation", whereas it is not originally used in that context in the OT.
                  It simply means "one who is close to G-d", such as a prophet or saint. This is the understanding of Jews and Muslims.

                  Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                  Christians believe God is incomparable, omniscient, omnipotent and Omnipresent..
                  ..as do Muslims..

                  He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters - Psalms

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nickklein View Post
                    ..It seems arrogant to say that a being so great would die for someone so pitiful..
                    G-d can't die by definition
                    He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters - Psalms

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Nickklein View Post
                      I think there is a slight misunderstanding here, as Christians and Muslims we beleive that a person is more than just a body you can see. There is a soul animating your body, that is the real You. The soul is eternal and will not die. When you understand that two objections fall:
                      1. God and Human "contradiction". Jesus was God in that the soul animating the body was God. However, the body that needs to eat and drink is obviously simply human. You can ask why Gid would do such a thing, and that's a fair question. But there really is no logical contradiction involved.
                      2. God apparently dying. Since the soul was God, the body dying does not mean God died at all. In fact, even when you die you will not cease existing, you'll live on, so why wouldn't God!

                      So there is no contradiction, it's just a matter of WHY??? Why would the creator of the universe come to die for one one of his creation?? The answer is God like love. I dont know of any other way to put it. It seems arrogant to say that a being so great would die for someone so pitiful. But if we truly have a great veiw of God, we will understand him as the most great, most majestic, yet most loving and most self sacrificial being in the universe.



                      I don't mean for the following to come across mean, I'm just saying...

                      The concept of original sin is unjust.

                      Hence it is to insult God [the All-Loving, the All-Just], to attribute this concept to Him and then say He "died" for the sins of man, so man can be cleansed of sin.

                      Rather it really doesn't have to be that dramatic or unjust at all.

                      The All Loving God, will simply forgive sin if man sincerely asks Him to forgive him. [And this is what happened to Adam, peace be upon him]

                      THIS is how a Loving God is!
                      Man just has to simply ask for forgiveness from his heart for his [own] sin, and doesn't carry the burden of another's sin.

                      The concept of original sin - the Christian view - is actually saying that God is not so Loving or Merciful or Just. Which is contradictory to Christianity's oft-repeated phrase: God is Love.

                      Basically, "God is Love/Loving" - Christianity fails to deliver that phrase, through the belief in original sin.

                      You see?


                      ¬*
                      Last edited by Rahma.; 30-08-19, 02:59 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by isa_muhammad View Post

                        G-d can't die by definition
                        in my post I described what christains beleive. God didnt cease existing anymore than you when you die. God by definition cannot cease existing. But he could take a human body and that body could die for sure.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Nickklein View Post
                          ..God didnt cease existing anymore than you when you die. God by definition cannot cease existing. But he could take a human body and that body could die for sure.
                          Hmm .. but what does it mean for G-d to "take" a human body?
                          G-d is aware of what is in our minds / souls. He knows everything about us.

                          Jesus, peace be with him, must have been VERY GOOD at multi-tasking if he had the attributes of G-d.
                          It doesn't make much sense at all really.

                          Why would G-d send prophets to mankind throughout time to guide them .. and then suddenly "pretend" to be a human being in order to forgive their sins?
                          It is all one big misunderstanding .. which was mainly the result of Rome's meddling and mistrust of the Jews.
                          Last edited by isa_muhammad; 17-09-19, 10:05 PM.
                          He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters - Psalms

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                          • #28
                            ďIf Allah were to punish men according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated term: when their term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His servants.Ē Sura 35:45

                            "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Roman's 3:23

                            "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, (and death through sin), so death spread to all men, because all have sinned." Roman's 5:12


                            This next chapter from Isaiah 53 in the old testament written over 500 years before Christ and considered to be extremly accurate to the original;

                            Surely he has borne our griefs
                            and carried our sorrows;
                            yet we esteemed him stricken,
                            smitten by God, and afflicted.
                            5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
                            he was crushed for our iniquities;
                            upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
                            and with his wounds we are healed.
                            6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
                            we have turnedóevery oneóto his own way;
                            and the Lord has laid on him
                            the iniquity of us all.

                            7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
                            yet he opened not his mouth;
                            like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
                            and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
                            so he opened not his mouth.
                            8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
                            and as for his generation, who considered
                            that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
                            stricken for the transgression of my people?
                            9 And they made his grave with the wicked
                            and with a rich man in his death,
                            although he had done no violence,
                            and there was no deceit in his mouth.

                            10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
                            he has put him to grief;[g]
                            when his soul makes[h] an offering for guilt,
                            he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
                            the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
                            11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see[i] and be satisfied;
                            by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
                            make many to be accounted righteous,
                            and he shall bear their iniquities.

                            Jesus specifically chose passover time to go to Jerusalem where he told his disciple he would die for them, he said "I am the good shepherd, the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep." John 10:11

                            "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.Ē -Jesus (Mark 10:45)

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                            • #29
                              My question remains unanswered..
                              "Why would G-d send prophets to mankind throughout time to guide them .. and then suddenly "pretend" to be a human being in order to forgive their sins?"
                              He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters - Psalms

                              Comment

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