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  • #46
    Originally posted by Abisali View Post

    The Quran says the Injeel is the word of Allah. Today's Bible is not the Injeel. Maybe parts of the Bible contains some revelation, but much of it is just the word of blasphemers. So, no, no need to retract that claim. If you need proof, all you have to do is read the Bible and see how many contradictions it contains. Read the songs of Solomon and understand that a women desiring a man to be her brother so she could sleep with him isn't holy. Read about how if a woman is raped by a man, she is to be wed to her rapist. There is plenty more, but it's all been discussed in this forum, you can do a quick search or open a new thread about the subject.¬*

    As for any Muslims reading this and are interested, as We as Muslims believe what Isa¬*¬*revealed. The current Bible contains some truth to it, and we accept it if it conforms to Islam. Read more here:¬*https://islamqa.info/en/answers/8528...el-exist-today
    Ah, itís obvious you donít understand the nature of the Bible. You are correct though the Bible is not the Injeel, the Gospels are the Injeel. I read your link, it actually doesnít offer any proof either. Your position leaves you in an awkward position. Because any proof you have has to satisfy Christians not Muslims, muslims will believe anything Islamic sites have to say on the Bible being corrupted, real evidence isnít required for you.¬*

    There is no escaping the fact that the Qurían supports the fact that the Bible is from God, and your prophet Muhammad never said the previous scriptures were corrupted. So you need to ask yourself when this Muslim held belief in regards to the Bible being corrupted first came about.¬*

    The manuscript evidence supports the fact that the Bible, As in the Torah, and the Gospels was in wide circulation centuries before the birth of Islam and your prophet. So you need to prove when the corruption took place, and why.¬*

    BTW, did you know itís not unheard of in todayís world that in some Muslim countries women are forced to marry their rapists. Are the following the Old Testament or the Qurían in this?¬*

    Comment


    • #47
      I understand the nature of the Bible just fine, it is a corruption of the revelation from Allah, with writings from unknown authors:¬*

      "Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark.¬* They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark.¬* His Gospel probably ended at 16:8,¬*or its original ending has been lost.¬*¬*(From the NIV Bible Foot Notes [1], page 1528)"

      "This verse, which reads, "But if you do not forgive, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your transgressions,"¬*is omitted in the best manuscripts.¬*¬*(The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1081)"

      "This passage, termed the Longer Ending to the Marcan gospel by comparison with a much briefer conclusion¬*found in some less important manuscripts, has traditionally been accepted as a canonical part of the gospel and was defined as such by the Council of Trent.¬* Early citations of it by the Fathers indicate that it was composed by the second century, although vocabulary and style indicate¬*that it was written by someone other than Mark.¬*¬*(The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1088)"

      Your own brethren admit to it, so there is your proof.¬*
      Last edited by Abisali; 26-04-19, 02:51 AM.

      Comment


      • #48

        Here is another verse worth mentioning :¬¬*
        "He that is slow to anger is*better than the almighty and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city"(Prov. 16:32).¬¬*


        Wouldn't any believer of Allah consider this¬¬*blasphemy? That man is better than the Almighty if they are slow to anger?? This is an example of how pride corrupted Christianity, the same sin Satan committed when Adam¬¬¬*was created.¬¬*

        I don't need to prove the when, I just need to prove the corruption, which I think all the above suffices.¬¬*

        What is your point with your last question? Are you really that dense to equate corrupt culture to doctrine?Or are you just grasping at straws?¬¬* Some Muslim countries don't follow Islam, shocker. We are not talking about Muslim countries, we are talking about the doctrine of Christianity and Islam. For your information, in Islam, there are four punishments that can be handed out to rapists, 100 lashings if he is not married, stoning if he is, removal of opposite limbs or exile.¬¬*


        Christians from America are currently all over the world murdering innocent Muslims under the false guise of bringing freedom to them, a different subject all together, does that mean it is ok to murder people as long as you accept the trinity and the crucifixion?¬¬*¬¬*

        ¬*
        Last edited by Abisali; 26-04-19, 02:59 AM.

        Comment


        • #49
          The site won't let me post properly for some reason, keeps saying invalid server response, so I am going to end on this post. The Quran Absolutely States that previous scripture has been altered:

          Allaah says about the Jews (interpretation of the meaning): ďDo you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?Ē [al-Baqarah 2:75]

          Allaah also said (interpretation of the meaning): ďAmong those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: ĎWe hear your word (O Muhammad) and disobey,í and ĎHear and let you (Muhammad) hear nothing.í And Raaíina [in Arabic this means, ĎBe careful, listen to us and we listen to you,í whereas in Hebrew it means Ďan insult.í] with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of the religion (Islam). And if only they had said, ĎWe hear and obey,í and ĎDo make us understand,í it would have been better for them, and more proper, but Allaah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not except for a few.Ē [al-Nisaaí 4:46]
          https://islamqa.info/en/answers/2001...-injeel-gospel

          So please don't lie about facts.¬*


          ¬*

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Abisali View Post
            Here is another verse worth mentioning :¬¬*
            "He that is slow to anger is*better than the almighty and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city"(Prov. 16:32).¬¬*


            Wouldn't any believer of Allah consider this¬¬*blasphemy? That man is better than the Almighty if they are slow to anger?? This is an example of how pride corrupted Christianity, the same sin Satan committed when Adam¬¬¬*was created.¬¬*

            I don't need to prove the when, I just need to prove the corruption, which I think all the above suffices.¬¬*

            What is your point with your last question? Are you really that dense to equate corrupt culture to doctrine?Or are you just grasping at straws?¬¬* Some Muslim countries don't follow Islam, shocker. We are not talking about Muslim countries, we are talking about the doctrine of Christianity and Islam. For your information, in Islam, there are four punishments that can be handed out to rapists, 100 lashings if he is not married, stoning if he is, removal of opposite limbs or exile.¬¬*


            Christians from America are currently all over the world murdering innocent Muslims under the false guise of bringing freedom to them, a different subject all together, does that mean it is ok to murder people as long as you accept the trinity and the crucifixion?¬¬*¬¬*

            ¬*
            I think you are missing the point. The Qurían supports the fact the Bible is scripture from God, Your Prophet Muhammad did not say it was corrupt. Unless you have proof of him actually saying so. I confess Iíve never seen or heard of it. So if the Biblical Scriptures in circulation at the time of your Prophet were not considered corrupt, then they must have been corrupted much later, long after his death. Given the nature of the Bible Scripture thatís just not possible. So yes, you do need to offer me proof of your claim if Iím to take it seriously.¬*

            As for your scripture quotes, the textual variations between manuscripts really donít change the core message of the Bible. As the Bible isnít revealed word verbatim as Muslims believe of the Qurían, then for Christians is not a deal breaker.¬*Other verses you quoted you have misquoted and probably misunderstood, again not a deal breaker. I wouldnít expect you to understand.¬*

            If Christians from America or anywhere else for that matter are going round the world murdering Muslims or anyone else, they are doing so in contradiction of their religion and Christ. I expect you would say the same of those who claim to be Muslims murdering hundreds of Christians at prayer on the holiest day of their year. But of course you are aware, as I am, ¬*that not everyone acts according to their religion.¬*

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Pip1 View Post

              I think you are missing the point. The Qurían supports the fact the Bible is scripture from God, Your Prophet Muhammad did not say it was corrupt. Unless you have proof of him actually saying so. I confess Iíve never seen or heard of it. So if the Biblical Scriptures in circulation at the time of your Prophet were not considered corrupt, then they must have been corrupted much later, long after his death. Given the nature of the Bible Scripture thatís just not possible. So yes, you do need to offer me proof of your claim if Iím to take it seriously.¬*

              As for your scripture quotes, the textual variations between manuscripts really donít change the core message of the Bible. As the Bible isnít revealed word verbatim as Muslims believe of the Qurían, then for Christians is not a deal breaker.¬*Other verses you quoted you have misquoted and probably misunderstood, again not a deal breaker. I wouldnít expect you to understand.¬*

              If Christians from America or anywhere else for that matter are going round the world murdering Muslims or anyone else, they are doing so in contradiction of their religion and Christ. I expect you would say the same of those who claim to be Muslims murdering hundreds of Christians at prayer on the holiest day of their year. But of course you are aware, as I am, ¬*that not everyone acts according to their religion.¬*
              No, you are missing the point. The Holy Quran states that what was revealed to Isa¬*is the word of Allah, not the Bible we have today. The Holy Quran also states that the scribes have altered it. Doesn't matter if it was a saying of Prophet Muhammad¬*¬*¬*or not, Allah stated it and that is all we need.

              I don't even need to use the Quran to prove my point, since your own book states it is in fact a lie:

              An admission from the men who wrote your books. So since you believe in the Bible you have to believe in this verse and accept that the scribes altered it to contain falsehood.¬*

              It's not just "textual variations" they are full on contradictions. Calling it "textual variations" allows you to just sweep the matter under the rug, so to speak. You have contradicting verses and you have additions to the text that are not found in the manuscripts that you hold so dear. Where did those additions come from? Who wrote them? You don't know.¬*

              We aren't talking about people doing things in contradiction to their religion, we are talking about how today's Bible is not the same revelation that was revealed to Isa. For if it was the same revelation, and you believe it is all the word of Allah, then you would have to admit to the belief that it is ok to force a woman to marry her rapist. You can't admit to that because that action is Unjust, and that would make your God to be Unjust.¬*

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Abisali View Post

                No, you are missing the point. The Holy Quran states that what was revealed to Isa¬*is the word of Allah, not the Bible we have today. The Holy Quran also states that the scribes have altered it. Doesn't matter if it was a saying of Prophet Muhammad¬*¬*¬*or not, Allah stated it and that is all we need.
                The Bible is a collection of books, not one book. I’m sure you know that. Are you referring to the New Testament which contain the Gospels? You also must know that Jesus never wrote any book neither was any book revealed to Him. Jesus was the message. The Qur’an does as you say mention scribes altering something, and that is exactly what Jeremiah 8:8 says. This of course if you take the Bible as a whole does not refer to the original message. But to copies in the hands of certain scribes. I mean, later God refers to the very same scripture then in the hands of Prophet Daniel, to take heed of the message within. Would God not know that this very message had been corrupted? Do you think for a minute God would command Daniel to do this if the message was changed from Gods original and intended message? Sorry, but it doesn’t seem likely. I have confidence God as all knowing and all powerful quite rightly protects His message.¬*

                I don't even need to use the Quran to prove my point, since your own book states it is in fact a lie:



                An admission from the men who wrote your books. So since you believe in the Bible you have to believe in this verse and accept that the scribes altered it to contain falsehood.¬*
                ¬*
                ¬*
                I believe this verse, but don’t believe your interpretation of it, because the Bible does not support your claim, neither actually does the Qur’an¬*

                It's not just "textual variations" they are full on contradictions. Calling it "textual variations" allows you to just sweep the matter under the rug, so to speak. You have contradicting verses and you have additions to the text that are not found in the manuscripts that you hold so dear. Where did those additions come from? Who wrote them? You don't know.¬*
                its textual variations. Whatever you say none of it changes the core message which is Gods love and redemption for mankind.¬*

                We aren't talking about people doing things in contradiction to their religion, we are talking about how today's Bible is not the same revelation that was revealed to Isa. For if it was the same revelation, and you believe it is all the word of Allah, then you would have to admit to the belief that it is ok to force a woman to marry her rapist. You can't admit to that because that action is Unjust, and that would make your God to be Unjust.¬*
                But it doesn’t though. If I as a Christian follow the teachings of Christ, which I do. Then Jesus never taught that a woman¬*
                was not forced to marry her rapist. However, The law you refer to in the Old Testament was there for a reason and a different time from the world we live in today. When a woman was seen in very different terms, the law was to protect her. ¬*I doubt you’d understand that. I do find it strange that this law still exists, mostly in Islamic countries. I don’t quite get why you see it as a “Christian” problem.¬*

                have a blessed Ramadan.¬*
                ¬*

                Comment


                • #53
                  So now the Bible is a collection of books and not just the Gospels? You couldn't comprehend that earlier when I was telling you that the Injeel isn't the Bible.¬* I know that Prophet Isa¬*¬*didn't write the books, it was a bunch of lying scribes that have attributed their lies to him. Typical of Christians like you, you're just going on conjecture like the Holy Quran states. If the Bible was the Holy Word of Allah, and if Allah promised to protect it, it wouldn't have the many, many contradictions in it. It isn't, as you put it, textual variations, they are pure contradictions. You calling them "textual variations" is just you putting a bandaid over it to try and justify your false beliefs. If the scribes were inspired by Allah, and had the "Holy Spirit" guiding them, you would think that the Holy Spirit would be able to prevent the corruption in the text. If it can't then it isn't all powerful.¬*

                  Doesn't matter if it was in the Old Testament, you and AJ made a big deal about how Allah has to be a Just God (Which I agree), so how can a Just God have a rape victim marry her rapist? Does your God change His mind? Did He not know what being Just was in the time of the Old Testament? If Christians came together and had a country that followed the law of the Old Testament, and allowed rapists to marry their victims, would that be Just? No, it wouldn't. And no, forcing a woman to marry her rapist isn't protecting her, it is condemning her to a life of misery.¬*

                  As for your deflection to "Muslim Countries" - Most Muslim countries don't implement the Shariah according to the Quran and Sunnah like they should. We aren't even talking about current day governments, we are talking about Scripture. Can you show me where in the Holy Quran or Authentic Hadith that states that a rape victim is supposed to marry her rapist?No, you can't, the only thing you would do is try to use underhanded tactics and try and misdirect the conversation.¬*

                  Islam is simple and true, no need for conjecture.¬*

                  Christianity is just a complete mess that needs it's believers to make up excuses for it's false doctrine.¬*

                  I understand only Allah can guide you, so I will just stop here. With the way you are now, you're hopeless and there is no use in dealing with you.¬*

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Abisali View Post
                    So now the Bible is a collection of books and not just the Gospels? You couldn't comprehend that earlier when I was telling you that the Injeel isn't the Bible.¬* I know that Prophet Isa¬*¬*didn't write the books, it was a bunch of lying scribes that have attributed their lies to him. Typical of Christians like you, you're just going on conjecture like the Holy Quran states. If the Bible was the Holy Word of Allah, and if Allah promised to protect it, it wouldn't have the many, many contradictions in it. It isn't, as you put it, textual variations, they are pure contradictions. You calling them "textual variations" is just you putting a bandaid over it to try and justify your false beliefs. If the scribes were inspired by Allah, and had the "Holy Spirit" guiding them, you would think that the Holy Spirit would be able to prevent the corruption in the text. If it can't then it isn't all powerful.¬*

                    Doesn't matter if it was in the Old Testament, you and AJ made a big deal about how Allah has to be a Just God (Which I agree), so how can a Just God have a rape victim marry her rapist? Does your God change His mind? Did He not know what being Just was in the time of the Old Testament? If Christians came together and had a country that followed the law of the Old Testament, and allowed rapists to marry their victims, would that be Just? No, it wouldn't. And no, forcing a woman to marry her rapist isn't protecting her, it is condemning her to a life of misery.¬*

                    As for your deflection to "Muslim Countries" - Most Muslim countries don't implement the Shariah according to the Quran and Sunnah like they should. We aren't even talking about current day governments, we are talking about Scripture. Can you show me where in the Holy Quran or Authentic Hadith that states that a rape victim is supposed to marry her rapist?No, you can't, the only thing you would do is try to use underhanded tactics and try and misdirect the conversation.¬*

                    Islam is simple and true, no need for conjecture.¬*

                    Christianity is just a complete mess that needs it's believers to make up excuses for it's false doctrine.¬*

                    I understand only Allah can guide you, so I will just stop here. With the way you are now, you're hopeless and there is no use in dealing with you.¬*
                    Probably¬*best we leave it here. Because quite frankly your approach isnít very conducive it reasoned debate. With your insults - lying scribes - typical of Christians like you - as if you even know me to cast judgement - false doctrine -¬*

                    when you have to resort to insults you have lost any reasoned argument you may have had. As for you casual blasphemy, I want no part in that. Hereís hoping you use the coming period of Ramadan to reflect on your methods. Because quite frankly youíre not doing Islam any favours.¬*

                    Its a shame. As you say God guides one to His ¬*truth, not your truth or my truth but THE truth.¬*

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Abisali, I hope you take the time to read this. Instead of jumping to conclusions.¬*

                      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marry-your-rapist_law

                      ¬*

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Pip1 View Post

                        Probably¬*best we leave it here. Because quite frankly your approach isnít very conducive it reasoned debate. With your insults - lying scribes - typical of Christians like you - as if you even know me to cast judgement - false doctrine -¬*

                        when you have to resort to insults you have lost any reasoned argument you may have had. As for you casual blasphemy, I want no part in that. Hereís hoping you use the coming period of Ramadan to reflect on your methods. Because quite frankly youíre not doing Islam any favours.¬*

                        Its a shame. As you say God guides one to His ¬*truth, not your truth or my truth but THE truth.¬*
                        Right, but you want part in the Blasphemy of saying our sins can hurt the creator, that if a man is slow to anger then they are better than the creator, saying that the creator had to rest after creating creation, that it is better for a women to marry her rapist. You blasphemy every time you claim Prophet Isa¬*¬¬*is your Lord and that he died for your sins that apparently harm your creator.¬*

                        There is no jumping to conclusions on my part, the law is clear, you're just providing damage control. It isn't an insult to claim that the scribes of the Bible are liars when the Bible itself claims it.
                        Sorry if I hurt your feelings, I didn't mean to, but I find it typical when Christians who come to Muslims and try to tell them that they need to accept the Bible, but when they get questioned about it, they go on the defensive, such as you did with the marrying the rapist bit. Still waiting on you to provide your reference to how Islam allows the raped to be married off to the rapist, you know, since you alluded to it saying it's allowed in Muslim countries. Tactics like that are dishonest, which is why I referred to you as "Christians like you". You can't debate straight on, and always go about in circles. And yes, as a Muslim, I believe that you worship a false doctrine, you're going to get that from any Muslim with actual knowledge about Islam and the Quran.¬*

                        But yes, I agree, best to leave it as is. There isn't a point to continue further.¬*
                        ¬*

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Abisali View Post

                          Right, but you want part in the Blasphemy of saying our sins can hurt the creator, that if a man is slow to anger then they are better than the creator, saying that the creator had to rest after creating creation, that it is better for a women to marry her rapist. You blasphemy every time you claim Prophet Isa¬*¬¬*is your Lord and that he died for your sins that apparently harm your creator.¬*

                          There is no jumping to conclusions on my part, the law is clear, you're just providing damage control. It isn't an insult to claim that the scribes of the Bible are liars when the Bible itself claims it.
                          Sorry if I hurt your feelings, I didn't mean to, but I find it typical when Christians who come to Muslims and try to tell them that they need to accept the Bible, but when they get questioned about it, they go on the defensive, such as you did with the marrying the rapist bit. Still waiting on you to provide your reference to how Islam allows the raped to be married off to the rapist, you know, since you alluded to it saying it's allowed in Muslim countries. Tactics like that are dishonest, which is why I referred to you as "Christians like you". You can't debate straight on, and always go about in circles. And yes, as a Muslim, I believe that you worship a false doctrine, you're going to get that from any Muslim with actual knowledge about Islam and the Quran.¬*

                          But yes, I agree, best to leave it as is. There isn't a point to continue further.¬*
                          ¬*
                          And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah, lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.Ē¬*Ė¬*The Holy Quran 6:108

                          ďInvite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.Ē¬*Ė¬*The Holy Quran 16:125

                          Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes Ė from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.Ē¬*Ė¬*The Holy Quran 60:8

                          Did you read the link I provided? ¬*Iím guessing nope.

                          Itís clear that your insulting claims against Christians and the Bible are based on your inexperience and lack of understanding. As for my hurting my feelings pfft not important. I just find it a little sad that so many Muslims, it has to be said mostly on forums like this, are always on the defensive. Thereís no need to be, truly there is nothing to fear from reasoned dialogue.¬*

                          So all all the best for the future and have a blessed Ramadan. ~ Peace.¬*

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Pip1 View Post

                            And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah, lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.Ē¬*Ė¬*The Holy Quran 6:108

                            ďInvite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.Ē¬*Ė¬*The Holy Quran 16:125

                            Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes Ė from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.Ē¬*Ė¬*The Holy Quran 60:8

                            Did you read the link I provided? ¬*Iím guessing nope.

                            Itís clear that your insulting claims against Christians and the Bible are based on your inexperience and lack of understanding. As for my hurting my feelings pfft not important. I just find it a little sad that so many Muslims, it has to be said mostly on forums like this, are always on the defensive. Thereís no need to be, truly there is nothing to fear from reasoned dialogue.¬*

                            So all all the best for the future and have a blessed Ramadan. ~ Peace.¬*
                            I read the link you provided, it still doesn't disprove my point, that the God in the Bible isn't Just because there is no justice in forcing a raped woman to marry her rapist. There is no shame for a woman to get raped, the one who should be shamed is the rapist. But again, your heart has been hardened by following a path that leads away from the Creator.

                            You insult Muslims every time you say Jesus was the son of God, that he died for mankind sins, and that the Quran isn't the true word of the Creator. As a Muslim, I am allowed to reply in kind. If this was a Christian forum, it would be a different story, and I would have held my tongue. But then again, Christians have nothing to offer Muslims, so I wouldn't be on their forums anyways.

                            Comment

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