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The absurdity of Christianity

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Abisali View Post

    You can have both because in the Law of Allah, that He clearly dictates to us, states that he will do either if we follow the guidelines.

    We as the creation don't need to know all of the reasonings behind Allah's intent. Allah doesn't answer to us, we answer to him, we were only made to worship him, not question his every action. My question to you is, why should he have made us perfect? What will Allah gain from making us perfect when Allah is Perfect and had dominion over everything? We have no effect on Allah's holiness, saying otherwise is saying that we have some kind of power over him, which we do not. Our sinning doesn't affect Allah in any way, we only hurt ourselves when we sin. Allah forgiving our sins doesn't negate any of His Holiness, it just shows us how He is a Kind, and Fair and Merciful Ruler since He is sticking to His promise to forgive. Saying He needs a sacrifice is what removes holiness, because in essence, you're putting restrictions on Him. Saying God had to be born from a female creation removes His Holiness. Saying God died for our sins removes from His holiness. God has need for nothing when he wants to do anything.

    If we needed a sacrifice for our sins, then there would be no need for Judgement Day. If Jesus was meant to be a sacrifice, he would have stated it clearly and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    At the end of the day, Christians don't have enough faith and trust in Allahs Mercy, which is why they hold on to the false doctrine of the trinity.
    You can have both? So God compromises, God makes the law, the law meant to be obeyed. Man breaks the law, inevitable, but God may or may not forgive. Kind of leaving you in a state of limbo. Do we keep the law, does it have value if there remains the possibility that God may arbitrarily forgive you.

    Of course you you don’t need to know and in fact it’s sheer arrogance of man to hope to know the workings of God. That’s a given. If God created us only to worship Him why did He give us free will? God exists outside His creation if we were never created it would make no difference to the existence of God, our being here or not makes no difference at all. So there must be another reason. Christianity and Judaism answer this. I’m not sure Islam does.

    Now when it comes to “perfect” lets be clear, nothing can compare to Gods perfection. Let’s say that’s in a class of its own. Yet the Bible clearly states all God made including man was made good and pleasing to God. Sin and evil is not, as we know pleasing to God. So man must have been as near to perfection as God desired. But as there is no value in worship if not freely given man was blessed with free will, that is how death and sin entered the world through free will. To say God is not effected in any way by our sin I’m not sure is accurate, for surely it hurts God when his most loved creation falls to sin, but that of course does not in anyway effect Gods Holiness. It’s not about God needing a sacrifice for sins against him, for God has no needs. It’s God demanding a sacrifice as is Gods right. God himself instigated the first sacrifice to cover the sin of Adam and Eve from that time on until Christ.

    I fail to see what the trinity has has to do with Christians view of faith in God’s mercy. The trinity is simply a mechanism that demonstrates Gods supreme love for creation. And it’s Gods love that moves everything. We were created from Gods love, we are forgiven our transgressions through Gods love. We are offered life eternal through Gods love. There’s nothing false about that.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Nickklein View Post

      To the first part yes, the quran states that no bearer of burdens can bear the burdens of another. But according to both the quran and the bible Jesus never bore burdens (sin). Therefore technically he could bear the burdens of someone else, however even if he couldnt the Christian doctrine of Jesus deity solves this issue. God can most certainly choose to bear anothers burdens if he wants to.
      Interesting. So you are saying that it's a burden for one, but not another? So that sins are beared by other than the guilty, however it's no burden?

      Can you point to where it says in the Quran that Jesus(as) never bore burdens and/or sin?

      Why and in what sense is Jesus(as) considered to be the son of God? Why not Adam(as)?

      I with appreciate it if you don't mind my questions

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Pip1 View Post

        You can have both? So God compromises, God makes the law, the law meant to be obeyed. Man breaks the law, inevitable, but God may or may not forgive. Kind of leaving you in a state of limbo. Do we keep the law, does it have value if there remains the possibility that God may arbitrarily forgive you.

        Of course you you don’t need to know and in fact it’s sheer arrogance of man to hope to know the workings of God. That’s a given. If God created us only to worship Him why did He give us free will? God exists outside His creation if we were never created it would make no difference to the existence of God, our being here or not makes no difference at all. So there must be another reason. Christianity and Judaism answer this. I’m not sure Islam does.

        Now when it comes to “perfect” lets be clear, nothing can compare to Gods perfection. Let’s say that’s in a class of its own. Yet the Bible clearly states all God made including man was made good and pleasing to God. Sin and evil is not, as we know pleasing to God. So man must have been as near to perfection as God desired. But as there is no value in worship if not freely given man was blessed with free will, that is how death and sin entered the world through free will. To say God is not effected in any way by our sin I’m not sure is accurate, for surely it hurts God when his most loved creation falls to sin, but that of course does not in anyway effect Gods Holiness. It’s not about God needing a sacrifice for sins against him, for God has no needs. It’s God demanding a sacrifice as is Gods right. God himself instigated the first sacrifice to cover the sin of Adam and Eve from that time on until Christ.

        I fail to see what the trinity has has to do with Christians view of faith in God’s mercy. The trinity is simply a mechanism that demonstrates Gods supreme love for creation. And it’s Gods love that moves everything. We were created from Gods love, we are forgiven our transgressions through Gods love. We are offered life eternal through Gods love. There’s nothing false about that.
        It isn't a compromise. Allah's Justice isn't the same as Mans justice. Allah knows what is in our hearts, He knows our intentions, and He knows what we are going to do before we do it. Yes, Allah made a Law, and He also knows that mankind is going to break some of them if not all of them, which is why he put a clause into the Law that states "sincerely repent and you will be forgiven". The Law will always have value since it is the Word of Allah. You are supposed to have a balance when it comes to faith, you're supposed to do your best to uphold the laws, and when you slip up, you're supposed to stand up and try again, while having faith in your Creator that He will forgive you your sins.

        A problem I see with Christians is that they think that they, as a creation of Allah, are more important than they really are. To say that Allah is affected and gets hurt by our sins is ridiculous. Nothing can hurt Allah, especially not some human who has no power. Allah is far above His creation, He has no need for us, but He chose to create us and bless us with many things that we don't deserve. The only think Allah demands from us is to worship Him and obey His laws. There is no need for a sacrifice because the only ones that sins hurt are the sinner, not Allah. They don't taint or harm Him in any way, they only harm us. It is easy for Allah to erase or forgive sins.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Abisali View Post

          It isn't a compromise. Allah's Justice isn't the same as Mans justice. Allah knows what is in our hearts, He knows our intentions, and He knows what we are going to do before we do it. Yes, Allah made a Law, and He also knows that mankind is going to break some of them if not all of them, which is why he put a clause into the Law that states "sincerely repent and you will be forgiven". The Law will always have value since it is the Word of Allah. You are supposed to have a balance when it comes to faith, you're supposed to do your best to uphold the laws, and when you slip up, you're supposed to stand up and try again, while having faith in your Creator that He will forgive you your sins.

          A problem I see with Christians is that they think that they, as a creation of Allah, are more important than they really are. To say that Allah is affected and gets hurt by our sins is ridiculous. Nothing can hurt Allah, especially not some human who has no power. Allah is far above His creation, He has no need for us, but He chose to create us and bless us with many things that we don't deserve. The only think Allah demands from us is to worship Him and obey His laws. There is no need for a sacrifice because the only ones that sins hurt are the sinner, not Allah. They don't taint or harm Him in any way, they only harm us. It is easy for Allah to erase or forgive sins.
          How do you, as a muslim, define justice? You call Allah "Just" but there seems to be no reason for doing so. Since when is Justice served by simply asking for a sincere apology? If someone gives a sincere apology and he's forgiven, that is mercy, not justice. Now i think what your saying is that God is all powerful and so his mercy can overide his Justice. But still, it Christianity God is both Completely Just, and Completely Merciful. In Islam, one overrides the other. I think in the end Christianity has a higher veiw of God, not that he is limited by not being able to override his Justice, but that he always acts 100 percent within his perfect character.

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          • #35
            I also think your imposing a human perspective on God. If you or I were God, we would prefer to simply overlook sin if the sinner is repentant and thus escape the suffering. However, God has an eternal perspective, he looks beyond immediate pain to the greater good. He looks beyond suffering today, to the rewards tommorrow. And with that perspective he chose to completly fulfill his perfect character because it would glorify Him.

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            • #36
              But I find the Justice of God in Islam to be in question on an even more fundamental level. The Quran states, 4:88; 9:51; 57:22; 7:16-18, 178; 16:93; 35:8; and 74:31, states that Allah inspires all thing, both good and bad (sin). Whatever we do has been predetermined by God. The question then obviously arises, how can a holy, sinless, fair God, inspire sin, (a sin in itself) and then punish disbelievers for that sin? In Christianity, God has no part in sin, and the cross displays the seriousness of sin.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Nickklein View Post

                How do you, as a muslim, define justice? You call Allah "Just" but there seems to be no reason for doing so. Since when is Justice served by simply asking for a sincere apology? If someone gives a sincere apology and he's forgiven, that is mercy, not justice. Now i think what your saying is that God is all powerful and so his mercy can overide his Justice. But still, it Christianity God is both Completely Just, and Completely Merciful. In Islam, one overrides the other. I think in the end Christianity has a higher veiw of God, not that he is limited by not being able to override his Justice, but that he always acts 100 percent within his perfect character.
                Justice:: "the maintenance or administration of what is¬*just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments".

                Allah is the one who dictates to us the Law and He will Judge us upon that Law. A stipulation of that law is to be repentful and try not to do it again and you will be forgiven. If Allah forgives that person, that is the fulfillment of justice since He is Judging by His law. It is simple. You're just trying to complicate it to suit your false belief.

                God, in Christianity, isn't completely just. According to Christianity, it says the same as Islam that no man will bear the burden of sin of another, yet at the same time, you also believe that Jesus, a man, had to die for our sins. That is not justice, that is a scapegoat. Whether or not you believe that the man that supposedly died on the cross was a man, or God or the son of God, it is an injustice for someone to die for another's sins. This in itself shows that Christianity, on it's very fundamental level, isn't a fair and just system. It takes away all accountability from the masses, so no matter who good or bad one is, all is forgiven since they supposedly have had someone sacrifice themselves (which really wasn't a sacrifice to begin with, it was more of an attempted murder). So there is no point for Christians to do good at all since they already have a golden ticket. Heck, even if they murder countless people, as long as they accept the false sacrifice, they get to avoid hell. That isn't justice at all.


                It is stupid, plain old stupid, for any human to think that they are worth more than their Creator, that the Creator would die for His creation. Especially when it would be a very easy thing for Him to replace us with others more deserving of His love.

                You are the one imposing human perspective on Allah by relating Him to a human parent who would die to protect their offspring. You also impose human perspective by saying that Allah needs to have a sacrifice in order to forgive us when in fact, He needs nothing. Allah is so far and above everything, there is nothing that we can do that will effect Him. The universe bends to His will.

                Allah doesn't make us sin, he gave us free will and we sin against ourselves, we choose to sin. Him knowing what we will do does not equal to Him making us do it. The cross is just a piece of wood, it has no bearing on our sins. Our sins only harm ourselves they have no effect on Allah. Saying that it does means that we have the ability to harm or affect Him by sinning, which we do not.

                You guys just keep going down the rabbit hole with your stupid thinking to justify your false beliefs. If you weren't so proud you would admit you're wrong and embrace Islam, but instead, you chose to be misguided. Have fun with your circus religion that incorporates paganism, witchcraft, pornography, and contradictions into its holy texts.



                ¬*
                Last edited by Abisali; 22-04-19, 11:03 PM.

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                • #38
                  So your God would be arbitrary, whatever he commands is good. On your thinking, if God chose to torture people for fun, that would be Holy. Rather I think we need to consider the attributes we know to be good. Justice, Mercy, Love, and we need to realize that God will always act fully in accordance with those attributes. Its not something im imposing on God, rather its part of the basic definition for God as the greatest concevable being. So God's law will be perfectly just and fair. You can't do it backward and assume because an injuction is in your idea of God's law, then it has to be fair and just.

                  Second, Yes! The idea that God would die for humankind is staggering! However the evidence; Jesus historical claims to deity, his death on a Roman cross, and his resurrection proving his claims(all historically verifiable events i might add), all point to the Christian's claim that he DID.
                  This doesn't at ALL make God unjust. I'm not proposing that God forced punishment on another for our sins, rather I'm saying he took it willingly onto himself. And the verse in the Quran that says no bearer of burdens can bear the burdens of another, gives as its reasoning that everyone has their own burdens to bear. But God obviously does no have any therfore he is able, if he wills, to take them on himself. And the evidence shows he did!!

                  Third, I think you are downplaying the idea of Allah creating and predestinating all things in the Quran. There are many verses which clearly state that the sins you will commit have been predetermined for you by Allah. Sahih al Bukhari has Mohammed telling about Adam who says the it wasnt his fault that he sinned. Allah had determined it for him.

                  So I think Christianity presents God as a God of Justice, Mercy and Love. And it also teaches that that God seeks a personal relationship with you. He can be known directly. And because he was tempted he is able to relate to those who are tempted. Heb 2:18

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Nickklein View Post
                    So your God would be arbitrary, whatever he commands is good. On your thinking, if God chose to torture people for fun, that would be Holy. Rather I think we need to consider the attributes we know to be good. Justice, Mercy, Love, and we need to realize that God will always act fully in accordance with those attributes. Its not something im imposing on God, rather its part of the basic definition for God as the greatest concevable being. So God's law will be perfectly just and fair. You can't do it backward and assume because an injuction is in your idea of God's law, then it has to be fair and just.

                    Second, Yes! The idea that God would die for humankind is staggering! However the evidence; Jesus historical claims to deity, his death on a Roman cross, and his resurrection proving his claims(all historically verifiable events i might add), all point to the Christian's claim that he DID.
                    This doesn't at ALL make God unjust. I'm not proposing that God forced punishment on another for our sins, rather I'm saying he took it willingly onto himself. And the verse in the Quran that says no bearer of burdens can bear the burdens of another, gives as its reasoning that everyone has their own burdens to bear. But God obviously does no have any therfore he is able, if he wills, to take them on himself. And the evidence shows he did!!

                    Third, I think you are downplaying the idea of Allah creating and predestinating all things in the Quran. There are many verses which clearly state that the sins you will commit have been predetermined for you by Allah. Sahih al Bukhari has Mohammed telling about Adam who says the it wasnt his fault that he sinned. Allah had determined it for him.

                    So I think Christianity presents God as a God of Justice, Mercy and Love. And it also teaches that that God seeks a personal relationship with you. He can be known directly. And because he was tempted he is able to relate to those who are tempted. Heb 2:18
                    Allah is the embodiment of Good. Like Jesus says, according to the Bible, "only God is good". So it would make sense that Allah will only command what is good for us. Allah wouldn't torture people for fun because it doesn't befit Him is His divinely status, though He could certainly do so if He wanted to, and we as His creation would have no right to complain.¬*

                    Jesus didn't die on the cross, Jesus never claimed to be a Deity, there is no such thing as the trinity. All of that originate from pagan beliefs. You have no verifiable sources to account for your claims, if you did, you would have provided them. The Bible can't be the source since it is obvious that it was written, and rewritten many times over by man. If the bible that we have today was the word of Allah, there would be no contradictions, there wouldn't be songs about a woman wishing a man was her brother so she could sleep with him, there wouldn't be witchcraft (ex: killing a bird and sprinkling it on a house to purify it), nor would it force women to be married off to their rapists.¬*

                    And no, the idea of Allah dying for His creations sins is not staggering, it is idiotic. It is stupid, plain and simple. The Creator of the Universe, Who has control over all things, could just simply wipe out peoples sins. No need for Him to die for something He created. And yes, you are saying Allah force punishment on someone else for our sins, but you just refuse to accept that that ideology is wrong so, here you are trying to convince yourself that you're in the right. For if you really were convinced and truly believed you were right, you wouldn't be spending your time on a forum with Muslims, trying to lead them astray to make yourself feel better.¬*

                    AJ, I thought you would have learned by now, but it is obvious you haven't. There is no use discussing this with you, you will deny the truth even if Allah sent an angel to you.¬*

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                    • #40
                      I want to put our arguments aside for a moment. If you really want evidence about what happened to Jesus, I will be happy to cite scolars, first century sources, and the bible. But before I go any further I need to clarify some things.
                      The reason I am doing this is not at all to make me feel good (if i wanted to do that I'd just down with a good cup of coffee and chocolate!! Lol). The reason I'm here is to share with you the relationship I've found with Jesus. I have not always been a Christian, but I've found He is alive and anyone truly interested can ask him directly for a relationship. So if I've been argumentative, I'm really sorry. I, as a Christian should not be primarily concerned with winning an argument. Rather, Jesus has sent Christians to be representatives of Him. It is entirely because I have many muslim friends and because I truly LOVE muslims that I share with you the Person that is closest to my heart.
                      As a person who's often engages with muslims I've had to ask the question; if Islam was true, would I want to know it? In other words, am I truly hearing the case, or am I just responding to arguments? So I would like to give you that to think about as well. We both have contradictory worldveiws, do we even want to know if we're wrong?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Nickklein View Post
                        I want to put our arguments aside for a moment. If you really want evidence about what happened to Jesus, I will be happy to cite scolars, first century sources, and the bible. But before I go any further I need to clarify some things.
                        The reason I am doing this is not at all to make me feel good (if i wanted to do that I'd just down with a good cup of coffee and chocolate!! Lol). The reason I'm here is to share with you the relationship I've found with Jesus. I have not always been a Christian, but I've found He is alive and anyone truly interested can ask him directly for a relationship. So if I've been argumentative, I'm really sorry. I, as a Christian should not be primarily concerned with winning an argument. Rather, Jesus has sent Christians to be representatives of Him. It is entirely because I have many muslim friends and because I truly LOVE muslims that I share with you the Person that is closest to my heart.
                        As a person who's often engages with muslims I've had to ask the question; if Islam was true, would I want to know it? In other words, am I truly hearing the case, or am I just responding to arguments? So I would like to give you that to think about as well. We both have contradictory worldveiws, do we even want to know if we're wrong?
                        You don't have a relationship with Jesus, you have a relationship with a false doctrine concocted by Satan. And to answer the question you present, I would love to know if my faith was wrong, then I would be able to correct my path and avoid hellfire. I can admit when there is something wrong, unlike many Christians that I have come across who just ignore all the false information the bible contains. I can't guide you to Islam, I can only present the path, only Allah can guide you. Seems like that isn't going to happen.¬*

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                        • #42
                          Ok. I agree, only God can guide us to the truth. If you are genuinely interested in what the evidence for Christianity looks like, give me a week or two and I'll compile the evidence for Christianity with sources and scholar citations from a minimal facts perspective. Then I'll post it. And anyone can make up their minds as to if it's reasonable. If Islam is true, then the evidence will obviously not be very strong.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Nickklein View Post
                            Ok. I agree, only God can guide us to the truth. If you are genuinely interested in what the evidence for Christianity looks like, give me a week or two and I'll compile the evidence for Christianity with sources and scholar citations from a minimal facts perspective. Then I'll post it. And anyone can make up their minds as to if it's reasonable. If Islam is true, then the evidence will obviously not be very strong.
                            No thank you. I know enough about Christianity to know that it was written by men who were influenced by Satan. Islam is what Allah, the Creator and Ruler of the Universe, has decreed for mankind to follow.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Abisali View Post

                              No thank you. I know enough about Christianity to know that it was [/B]written by men who were influenced by Satan[B]. Islam is what Allah, the Creator and Ruler of the Universe, has decreed for mankind to follow.
                              Do you have proof of that claim? If you donít given that the Bible, the scriptures the Christians adhere to are confirmed as being from God in the Qurían, I feel you should retract that claim. Would maybe be best for you. Peace

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Pip1 View Post

                                Do you have proof of that claim? If you donít given that the Bible, the scriptures the Christians adhere to are confirmed as being from God in the Qurían, I feel you should retract that claim. Would maybe be best for you. Peace
                                The Quran says the Injeel is the word of Allah. Today's Bible is not the Injeel. Maybe parts of the Bible contains some revelation, but much of it is just the word of blasphemers. So, no, no need to retract that claim. If you need proof, all you have to do is read the Bible and see how many contradictions it contains. Read the songs of Solomon and understand that a women desiring a man to be her brother so she could sleep with him isn't holy. Read about how if a woman is raped by a man, she is to be wed to her rapist. There is plenty more, but it's all been discussed in this forum, you can do a quick search or open a new thread about the subject.¬*

                                As for any Muslims reading this and are interested, as We as Muslims believe what Isa¬*¬*revealed. The current Bible contains some truth to it, and we accept it if it conforms to Islam. Read more here:¬*https://islamqa.info/en/answers/8528...el-exist-today
                                Last edited by Abisali; 25-04-19, 01:15 AM.

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