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Bible Ibrahim (Pbuh) annointed? In heaven?

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  • Bible Ibrahim (Pbuh) annointed? In heaven?

    I have a topic about Ibrahim (pbuh) with my mom. She's a Jehovah's Witness and she believes that paradise is on this earth, that God will clean this earth back into paradise. They believe that only a selected number of people, the annointed ones 144.000 will go to heaven. Now the topic is, was AIbrahim (pbuh) in the bible an annointed one and did he go to heaven?

    They, the JW's, say that the annointed people started in the time of Moses (pbuh). So they think Ibrahim (pbuh) is not in heaven. But when you read Mathew 8:11 it says.... I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. And also the story in Luke 16, with Lazurus, the rirch man calls upon Ibrahim(pbuh) it describes Abrahim(pbuh) in heaven, it says ....22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    They also use John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
    That only after Jezus(pbuh) people were able to go to heaven, and only the 144.000

    I try to find versus in the old testament where it says that people go to heaven after they die.


  • #2
    Eesathekiwi
    eesa the kiwi
    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ٱعْبُدُوا۟ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ وَٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

    O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

    Surah Al Baqarah ayah 21

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by sobia19 View Post
      I have a topic about Ibrahim (pbuh) with my mom. She's a Jehovah's Witness and she believes that paradise is on this earth, that God will clean this earth back into paradise. They believe that only a selected number of people, the annointed ones 144.000 will go to heaven. Now the topic is, was AIbrahim (pbuh) in the bible an annointed one and did he go to heaven?

      They, the JW's, say that the annointed people started in the time of Moses (pbuh). So they think Ibrahim (pbuh) is not in heaven. But when you read Mathew 8:11 it says.... I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. And also the story in Luke 16, with Lazurus, the rirch man calls upon Ibrahim(pbuh) it describes Abrahim(pbuh) in heaven, it says ....22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

      They also use John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
      That only after Jezus(pbuh) people were able to go to heaven, and only the 144.000

      I try to find versus in the old testament where it says that people go to heaven after they die.
      Well according to Christians ... "God" told him a massive porkie,

      نعوذ بالله من ذلك

      Apparently God gave him the Nile to the Euphrates according to Christians,

      But he didn't own a square metre of land, the land he was burbur in, had to be bought.

      Facepalm.

      Allah عز و جل says...

      Aal-e-Imran : Ayah 67

      مَا کَانَ اِبۡرٰہِیۡمُ یَہُوۡدِیًّا وَّلَا نَصۡرَانِیًّا وَّلٰکِنۡ کَانَ حَنِیۡفًا مُّسۡلِمًا ؕ  وَمَا کَانَ مِنَ الۡمُشۡرِکِیۡنَ 

      Ibrahim (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism - to worship none but Allah Alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikun (See Al-Baqarah, Ayah 105).


      You should give your mum Dawah to Islam, so she leaves the Kufr of Christianity,

      Reason with her as best possible,

      Its the foundation of Christianity that you need to address,

      Side points are unlikely to convince a Christian,

      Jazakallahu khair
      Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 03-08-18, 10:00 PM.
      http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

      "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

      – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you for your reply. I try to give my mom dawah, but she always want to give dawah to me instead, dawah of her own religion, she still hopes I'll become a JW again. She also gives me their books and magazines. I try to reason with her, but their doctorine and their books are so cunning (hope that's the righ expression, I'm not a native English). It's hard to go against it, to unravel it, too much confusion in their doctorine.

        I always go back to "there is not god but God"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by sobia19 View Post
          Thank you for your reply. I try to give my mom dawah, but she always want to give dawah to me instead, dawah of her own religion, she still hopes I'll become a JW again. She also gives me their books and magazines. I try to reason with her, but their doctorine and their books are so cunning (hope that's the righ expression, I'm not a native English). It's hard to go against it, to unravel it, too much confusion in their doctorine.

          I always go back to "there is not god but God"
          Typical Jehovah's witness tactic is to take you off on tangents and derail you off the core issue.

          Keep bringing the discussion back to Tawheed, the fact that she ought to worship the creator of Jesus, God almighty, and not Jesus,

          Use the several verses in the Bible which indicate what Jesus said and what it claims God said, that Nullifies any worship of Jesus or the Crucifixion, or Ressurrection.

          Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 05-08-18, 02:35 PM.
          http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

          "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

          – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

          Comment


          • #6
            The thing is, when I point out some verses in the bible, she goes to another verse that is the opposite of that, and then explaines that the first verse must be interpreted in another way, it must match with each other she thinks, because it's God's word. So even when verses contradicting each other, they, the leaders of the Jehovah's witnesses make it match somehow. That's mind boggling to me, even when I was raised as a JW I felt that something was not right, why can't she see that? I don't get it. In their view you are evil when you doubt the bible.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by sobia19 View Post
              The thing is, when I point out some verses in the bible, she goes to another verse that is the opposite of that, and then explaines that the first verse must be interpreted in another way, it must match with each other she thinks, because it's God's word. So even when verses contradicting each other, they, the leaders of the Jehovah's witnesses make it match somehow. That's mind boggling to me, even when I was raised as a JW I felt that something was not right, why can't she see that? I don't get it. In their view you are evil when you doubt the bible.
              You need to explain to her that a book ot God cannot have contradictions,

              Use explicit verses which she cant twist by interpretation.

              Then when she brings up a verse that says opposite, show her that it is contradicting the fundamental verses.

              Vereses such as when Jesus said his God, worshipped his God etc which clearly indicate that Jesus cannot be divine since he didnt worship himself, but God almighty.

              Keep reasoning with her, perhaps she will see reason.

              There are verses in yhe Bible which could be used to hammer Christianity, but since its your mother, go easy on her.

              Your duty is to give dawah, if she doesn't accept Islam, the blame is upon her.

              جزاك الله خيرا
              http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

              "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

              – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

              Comment


              • #8
                Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe Jesus is God, but a son of God. But they do believe that he is a god, not the God but godly, the first created angel.
                I always remind her of the first commandment
                "You shall have no other gods before me"
                Or like in Isiaiah

                I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by sobia19 View Post
                  Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe Jesus is God, but a son of God. But they do believe that he is a god, not the God but godly, the first created angel.
                  I always remind her of the first commandment
                  "You shall have no other gods before me"
                  Or like in Isiaiah

                  I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
                  Ask her if she doesnt believe Jesus is God, why is she worshipping him?

                  ​​​​ask her if she believes Jesus is "the begotten Son of God"?

                  Ask her if she believes Jesus is Divine or just a Son of God in figurative sense, since God has sons by the tonnes according to yhe Bible,

                  You need to be able to sift through the waffle and word games they play.

                  keep reasoning with her.



                  Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 14-08-18, 07:26 AM.
                  http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                  "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                  – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sobia19 View Post
                    I have a topic about Ibrahim (pbuh) with my mom. She's a Jehovah's Witness and she believes that paradise is on this earth, that God will clean this earth back into paradise. They believe that only a selected number of people, the annointed ones 144.000 will go to heaven. Now the topic is, was AIbrahim (pbuh) in the bible an annointed one and did he go to heaven?

                    They, the JW's, say that the annointed people started in the time of Moses (pbuh). So they think Ibrahim (pbuh) is not in heaven. But when you read Mathew 8:11 it says.... I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. And also the story in Luke 16, with Lazurus, the rirch man calls upon Ibrahim(pbuh) it describes Abrahim(pbuh) in heaven, it says ....22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

                    They also use John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
                    That only after Jezus(pbuh) people were able to go to heaven, and only the 144.000

                    I try to find versus in the old testament where it says that people go to heaven after they die.
                    Just a thought, why don’t you try and use the Bible instead of the NWT Jehovah’s Witness version? 144,000 going to heaven not biblical in any way, shape or form. Jehovahs witnesses believe an awful lot that is not found in Gods scripture. At least as an ex JW you haven’t been shunned yet, that’s a positive.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post

                      Ask her if she doesnt believe Jesus is God, why is she worshipping him?

                      ​​​​ask her if she believes Jesus is "the begotten Son of God"?

                      Ask her if she believes Jesus is Divine or just a Son of God in figurative sense, since God has sons by the tonnes according to yhe Bible,

                      You need to be able to sift through the waffle and word games they play.

                      keep reasoning with her.


                      Lol, I doubt any of your above questions will have any effect whatsoever. I had a chuckle at your first question.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by sobia19 View Post
                        Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe Jesus is God, but a son of God. But they do believe that he is a god, not the God but godly, the first created angel.
                        I always remind her of the first commandment
                        "You shall have no other gods before me"
                        Or like in Isiaiah

                        I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
                        Bit in bold.. please note this is NOT what Christians believe. It is NOT biblical teaching. An example of how Charles Taze Russell changed the scripture for his own ends.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pip1 View Post

                          Bit in bold.. please note this is NOT what Christians believe. It is NOT biblical teaching. An example of how Charles Taze Russell changed the scripture for his own ends.
                          They believe Jesus is Divine, the literal sonnof God.

                          No amount of word games will detract from this fact.

                          http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                          "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                          – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pip1 View Post
                            Lol, I doubt any of your above questions will have any effect whatsoever. I had a chuckle at your first question.
                            Christians worship Jesus, believe hes Divine,

                            To date no Christian has said hes just another Son of God amongst the tonnes which the bible mentions,

                            Neither have they admitted that Jesus is a Impure Worm in the sight ot God almighty as per the book of Job.

                            You can be the first one pip,
                            http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                            "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                            – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post

                              They believe Jesus is Divine, the literal sonnof God.

                              No amount of word games will detract from this fact.
                              I don’t doubt that it is what JWs believe. Just saying it’s not what Christians believe. Word games not required.

                              Comment

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