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  • Do Jews have to keep the Torah when converting to Islam?

    Had a dialogue with a jewish guy last week. It was about why Jews Reject Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

    He said Jews don't accept him, not because he was an arab. In fact there were many Non-Jewish prophets in their Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).

    He gave me 2 main reasons why they don't accept Jesus & Muhammad (pbut)

    1-If a man claims he's a prophet and tells a Jew, they no longer have to keep the Torah laws, they automatically reject him. For exemple, not keeping the sabat , etc.

    Deuteronomy 4-2 : 2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

    2- A prophet has to predict something that is about to happen in the near future and mention every detail. For exemple, if it's about to rain blood at 6:12pm tomorrow, it has to be at 6:12pm, not 5 min early or late. They claim prophet Muhammad predicted a war that is going to happen between 2 and 10 years. Because of that they reject him, because it's not detailed. Even if it came true, that doesn't mean he's a prophet. Magicians are able to do that.

    My question is, do jews have to keep the torah laws, such as the shabat, when converting to Islam. Also how would you counter his second argument?

  • #2
    Tell him then why did they reject and kill their own Prophets. The Torah has been abrogated and the Law of Muhammad is the law of the world until the Day of Judgement. The Jews in the time of the Prophet s.a.a.w. recognized him as the Prophet that they were waiting for and questioned him and became convinced that he was the one but they refused to accept out of racial pride except for a few like Abdullah bin Salaam. And there were many many miracles and foretelling of events in the seerah that took place during the time of the Prophet s.a.a.w.
    The Prophet s.a.a.w warned when he said: "You will surely follow the ways of those who came before you, in exactly the same fashion, to the point were they to enter the hole of a lizard, you too would enter it." It was asked of him, "O Messenger of Allah s.a.a.w., do you mean the Jews and Christians?" He replied, "Who else?" (Bukhari and Muslim)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ibrahim8k View Post
      Had a dialogue with a jewish guy last week. It was about why Jews Reject Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

      He said Jews don't accept him, not because he was an arab. In fact there were many Non-Jewish prophets in their Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).

      He gave me 2 main reasons why they don't accept Jesus & Muhammad (pbut)

      1-If a man claims he's a prophet and tells a Jew, they no longer have to keep the Torah laws, they automatically reject him. For exemple, not keeping the sabat , etc.

      Deuteronomy 4-2 : 2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

      2- A prophet has to predict something that is about to happen in the near future and mention every detail. For exemple, if it's about to rain blood at 6:12pm tomorrow, it has to be at 6:12pm, not 5 min early or late. They claim prophet Muhammad predicted a war that is going to happen between 2 and 10 years. Because of that they reject him, because it's not detailed. Even if it came true, that doesn't mean he's a prophet. Magicians are able to do that.

      My question is, do jews have to keep the torah laws, such as the shabat, when converting to Islam. Also how would you counter his second argument?
      The basis of his claims are from his own torah, which is corrupted, and can be proven to be so so is batil and rejected.

      We however have something better, uncorrupted which we can give to him instead if he is willing to be open minded
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      • #4
        .

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ibrahim8k View Post
          Had a dialogue with a jewish guy last week. It was about why Jews Reject Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

          He said Jews don't accept him, not because he was an arab. In fact there were many Non-Jewish prophets in their Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).

          He gave me 2 main reasons why they don't accept Jesus & Muhammad (pbut)

          1-If a man claims he's a prophet and tells a Jew, they no longer have to keep the Torah laws, they automatically reject him. For exemple, not keeping the sabat , etc.

          Deuteronomy 4-2 : 2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

          2- A prophet has to predict something that is about to happen in the near future and mention every detail. For exemple, if it's about to rain blood at 6:12pm tomorrow, it has to be at 6:12pm, not 5 min early or late. They claim prophet Muhammad predicted a war that is going to happen between 2 and 10 years. Because of that they reject him, because it's not detailed. Even if it came true, that doesn't mean he's a prophet. Magicians are able to do that.

          My question is, do jews have to keep the torah laws, such as the shabat, when converting to Islam. Also how would you counter his second argument?
          Previous revelations are nullified, they don't apply after the Qur'an was revealed, and the advent of Rasul صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وسلم

          In addition the Jewish scriptures are known be corrupted. They abused God all mighty, his prophets with numerous disgusting filth.

          Many of which was elaborated in various threads..

          Lastly the Toraat was never revealed as a revelation till judgement day, it was revealed for the children of Israel and for a specific time. Even their own scriptures prophecise about Rasul صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وسلم

          The Jews unfortunately have made their religion into a racial one

          جزاك الله خيرا
          Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 11-03-18, 05:39 PM.
          http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

          "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

          – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by ibrahim8k View Post
            Had a dialogue with a jewish guy last week. It was about why Jews Reject Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

            He said Jews don't accept him, not because he was an arab. In fact there were many Non-Jewish prophets in their Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).

            He gave me 2 main reasons why they don't accept Jesus & Muhammad (pbut)

            1-If a man claims he's a prophet and tells a Jew, they no longer have to keep the Torah laws, they automatically reject him. For exemple, not keeping the sabat , etc.

            Deuteronomy 4-2 : 2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

            2- A prophet has to predict something that is about to happen in the near future and mention every detail. For exemple, if it's about to rain blood at 6:12pm tomorrow, it has to be at 6:12pm, not 5 min early or late. They claim prophet Muhammad predicted a war that is going to happen between 2 and 10 years. Because of that they reject him, because it's not detailed. Even if it came true, that doesn't mean he's a prophet. Magicians are able to do that.

            My question is, do jews have to keep the torah laws, such as the shabat, when converting to Islam. Also how would you counter his second argument?
            I remember a Christian told me Jesus (in the Quran, Isa 'alayhi salaam) told the Jews that he did not come to abolish the current law (so he never told the Jews to reject the Torah) yet you know what the Jews had done to Jesus

            Matthew 5:17 "Don't think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

            As to the second point, did all their prophets have this ability to predict in such accuracy, hence they were accepted as prophets by the Jews?
            39:37-38 Isn't Allah sufficient for His servant ? And [yet], they threaten you with those [they worship] other than Him. And whoever Allah leaves astray - for him there is no guide. And whoever Allah guides - for him there is no misguidance. Isn't Allah Exalted in Might and Owner of Retribution?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post

              Previous revelations are nullified, they don't apply after the Qur'an was revealed, and the advent of Rasul صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وسلم

              In addition the Jewish scriptures are known be corrupted. They abused God all mighty, his prophets with numerous disgusting filth.

              Many of which was elaborated in various threads..

              Lastly the Toraat was never revealed as a revelation till judgement day, it was revealed for the children of Israel and for a specific time. Even their own scriptures prophecise about Rasul صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وسلم

              The Jews unfortunately have made their religion into a racial one

              جزاك الله خيرا
              I don't think anyone believes the Torah was corrupted a long time ago or that it had an expiration date, except Muslims. I also told the Jew I was talking to about our Prophet being mentioned in their Tanakh. For exemple Solomon 5:16. but he refuted my argument by saying that we Muslims take their verses out of context. When you read the previous verses, it doesn't make sense why Prophet Muhammad would be mentioned here.

              Also, he claims the Torah was never corrupted, because when you go to Yemen, or any part of the world with jewish people, it's the same Hebrew Torah. Word by word. This notion of the Torah being corrupted only exists within Islam. So to them, they automatically shut their ears when you say their book is corrupted, just like if a false prophet said the Qur'an was corrupted, and he's bringing a new book. We won't take that guy seriously.

              Based on what he said, he told me that it's not a racial religion as anyone can convert to it, But they don't have to. As long as you keep the 7 laws of Nuh (pbuh) you're saved from hellfire.
              Last edited by ibrahim8k; 14-03-18, 02:37 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by ibrahim8k View Post
                Had a dialogue with a jewish guy last week. It was about why Jews Reject Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

                He said Jews don't accept him, not because he was an arab. In fact there were many Non-Jewish prophets in their Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).

                He gave me 2 main reasons why they don't accept Jesus & Muhammad (pbut)

                1-If a man claims he's a prophet and tells a Jew, they no longer have to keep the Torah laws, they automatically reject him. For exemple, not keeping the sabat , etc.

                Deuteronomy 4-2 : 2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

                2- A prophet has to predict something that is about to happen in the near future and mention every detail. For exemple, if it's about to rain blood at 6:12pm tomorrow, it has to be at 6:12pm, not 5 min early or late. They claim prophet Muhammad predicted a war that is going to happen between 2 and 10 years. Because of that they reject him, because it's not detailed. Even if it came true, that doesn't mean he's a prophet. Magicians are able to do that.

                My question is, do jews have to keep the torah laws, such as the shabat, when converting to Islam. Also how would you counter his second argument?
                Test. Sorry, I wrote a response to this post, but can't send it, because of an error I receive from the site. I'll try to send it piece by piece.

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                • #9

                  Assalamu alaykum

                  Originally posted by ibrahim8k View Post
                  Had a dialogue with a jewish guy last week. It was about why Jews Reject Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

                  He said Jews don't accept him, not because he was an arab. In fact there were many Non-Jewish prophets in their Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).
                  Due to the paradox in the perspective of the Jews, I think it's worthwhile mentioning that the Jews do not entirely 'reject' Prophet Muhammad(saws)--yet neither do they 'accept' him. They differ among themselves as to whether or not he was a Prophet(as), but through my research on the matter: they accept Islam as a valid religion for the Gentiles. Meaning that the Gentile is validly approaching Hashem(God) through the teachings of Islam.

                  This topic is rather deep, and quite interesting because there are many prophecies found in the Hebrew Scriptures of a Prophet and a Great Nation being granted to the Gentiles, and none but Muhammad(saws) could fit that criteria so perfectly; seeing that they do not view Christianity as a valid monotheistic religion. The affirmation of Islam's 'Gentile validity' is the position of Moses Maimonades (Rambam), who is among Judaisms most influential, and authoritative Rabbis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides
                  Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 16-03-18, 10:25 PM.

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                  • #10

                    Originally posted by ibrahim8k View Post
                    He gave me 2 main reasons why they don't accept Jesus & Muhammad (pbut)

                    1If a man claims he's a prophet and tells a Jew, they no longer have to keep the Torah laws, they automatically reject him. For exemple, not keeping the sabat , etc.

                    Deuteronomy 4-2 : 2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
                    The problem here lies in that your opponent has assumed the validity of his religion, without having yet proved it.

                    1) Prove that the Torah is the Word of God.

                    Meaning: Provide positive proofs which suggest that man is not the author of the Torah. After bringing forth affirmative proofs which would satisfy the unbiased intellect, respond to the allegations of: False prophecies, numerical discrepancies, theological contradictions, scientific absurdities/impossibilities, unnecessary stories regarding previous Prophets(as) i.e. Lot(as) and his daughters.

                    If the Jewish scriptures are not proven to be from God, then an objective truth seeker would not affirm them blindly, and then use them as a standard. The Quran validates the Jewish scriptures to a degree. Had the Quran not done this, then we would deny Judaism and it's Prophet's(as) as a whole. Islam validates what preceded it; what preceded Islam does not necessarily have to validate Islam. Why? Because Islam has proof making it worthy to follow in the first place. Previous religions have no proof, and therefore, a rational person would reject them as man made religions.

                    2) Prove to me that your 'Torah' is preserved perfectly.

                    The oldest manuscript dates back to 600BC, and Moses(as) 'allegedly' received the Torah in 1400BC. That leaves 800 years of uncertainty. On top of this, you have all the tribulations the Jewish people faced during the Diaspora—and the majority of scholars believe that the text are a product of Babylonian captivity. Orthodox Judaism runs off pure faith that their scriptures are preserved; not scientific/rational arguments.

                    Furthermore, there are problems with the text itself. It is proposed that Moses(as) is the author of the current Torah. How could this be possible when there exists a passage such as this:

                    "And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is" [Deuteronomy 34:5-6]

                    3) Along with making the above clear to the individual there are many Prophecies, and Biblical references which can sway the individual. But it's extremely important that points 1) and 2) are drilled home.

                    Isaiah 42 is a clear prophecy regarding the Prophet Muhammad(saws). Kedar are the Arabs: https://www.bible.com/bible/111/ISA.42.niv

                    God has promised the offspring of Ishmael(as) a 'great nation':

                    "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation." [Genesis 17:20]

                    God curses/criticizes Israel, then makes mention that He will make his name known to the Gentiles. Read the Book of Malachi.
                    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 16-03-18, 10:59 PM.

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                    • #11
                      There is much more to be said on this topic. The Jews are a nation whose faults are apparent, and mentioned within their own texts. This is the nation that was defiant with Moses(as); they even worshipped the calf in his absence. There is the re-occurring theme of God's anger and forgiveness with them. They eventually denied Jesus even though Allah granted him miracles which could not be explained--along with knowledge in the scriptures; calling them to what they know to be true, as it is known in the Christian scriptures. Yet they denied him, because he was not conforming to the traditions of the Rabbi's--and indeed, he criticized the scribes and the pharisees heavily for leaving the teachings of God:

                      "You abandon the commandments of God to follow human traditions.” [Mark 7:8] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...k+7&version=GW

                      Allah admonishes them throughout the Quran, and exposes their false claims to righteousness. Read Quran 2:40 onwards: https://quran.com/2/40-50?translations=20
                      Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 16-03-18, 10:31 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ibrahim8k View Post

                        2- A prophet has to predict something that is about to happen in the near future and mention every detail. For exemple, if it's about to rain blood at 6:12pm tomorrow, it has to be at 6:12pm, not 5 min early or late. They claim prophet Muhammad predicted a war that is going to happen between 2 and 10 years. Because of that they reject him, because it's not detailed. Even if it came true, that doesn't mean he's a prophet. Magicians are able to do that.
                        Similar to the above. If the religion is not clearly from God, then it has no say in front of something which can be proven to be from God. A Divine Product is superior to a created product. A created product has no authority over a Divine Product; that would be a backwards way of judging.

                        This standard also invalidates their own Prophets. Beyond that, the Prophet Muhammad(saws) had more than one prophecy. The entire Seerah has events where people came to him, and he informed them of information which could only be known through revelation. Many of the Sahabah converted, and were re-affirmed due to his knowledge of the ghayb. Prior to the Prophetic revelations, the Prophet(saws) would see dreams which would come true with 100% accuracy the following day(s). I believe this went on for a period of 6 months, if I'm not mistaken, wa Allahu alam.
                        Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 17-03-18, 01:26 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ibrahim8k View Post
                          My question is, do jews have to keep the torah laws, such as the shabat, when converting to Islam.
                          http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...sk=view&id=203

                          "(...perfectly) means, in its entirety. This is the Tafsir of Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Abu Al-`Aliyah, `Ikrimah, Ar-Rabi` bin Anas, As-Suddi, Muqatil bin Hayyan, Qatadah and Ad-Dahhak. Mujahid said that the Ayah means, `Perform all the good works and the various pious deeds, this is especially addressed to those from among the People of the Scripture who embraced the faith.'

                          Ibn Abu Hatim reported that Ibn `Abbas said that:

                          (O you who believe! Enter Silm perfectly) refers to the believers among the People of the Scripture. This is because they believed in Allah, some of them still followed some parts of the Tawrah and the previous revelations.


                          (Enter Islam perfectly.) Allah thus commanded them to embrace the legislation of the religion of Muhammad in its entirety and to avoid abandoning any part of it. They should no longer adhere to the Tawrah.


                          Allah knows best
                          Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 16-03-18, 10:33 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ibrahim8k View Post

                            I don't think anyone believes the Torah was corrupted a long time ago or that it had an expiration date, except Muslims. I also told the Jew I was talking to about our Prophet being mentioned in their Tanakh. For exemple Solomon 5:16. but he refuted my argument by saying that we Muslims take their verses out of context. When you read the previous verses, it doesn't make sense why Prophet Muhammad would be mentioned here.

                            Also, he claims the Torah was never corrupted, because when you go to Yemen, or any part of the world with jewish people, it's the same Hebrew Torah. Word by word. This notion of the Torah being corrupted only exists within Islam. So to them, they automatically shut their ears when you say their book is corrupted, just like if a false prophet said the Qur'an was corrupted, and he's bringing a new book. We won't take that guy seriously.

                            Based on what he said, he told me that it's not a racial religion as anyone can convert to it, But they don't have to. As long as you keep the 7 laws of Nuh (pbuh) you're saved from hellfire.
                            It's not a case of opinions

                            The Bible itself proves it cannot be a revelation from God,

                            Surely you realised this by now, or should we start posting evidence from the Bible?

                            You clearly have one idea what the Jewish Torah / Talmud says,

                            If you did, you would otherwise deny the racist nature of it,

                            Judaism is inherently racist, if one does not have a Jewish/Israeli mother, they are either not accepted to be from the "chosen people" or they are held as second class Jews,

                            The Talmud is also very revealing in various blatant Racist teachings, we cited some of them previously and the Jews that saw it basically did a runner.

                            Anyway to get to the original point, a Muslim believes in and follows the final revelation the Qur'an and his messenger صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وسلم

                            If they follow the books of the Jews, Christians, Hindus or any other religion then they are obviously not Muslim.

                            Regards
                            http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                            "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                            – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post

                              It's not a case of opinions

                              The Bible itself proves it cannot be a revelation from God,

                              Surely you realised this by now, or should we start posting evidence from the Bible?

                              You clearly have one idea what the Jewish Torah / Talmud says,

                              If you did, you would otherwise deny the racist nature of it,

                              Judaism is inherently racist, if one does not have a Jewish/Israeli mother, they are either not accepted to be from the "chosen people" or they are held as second class Jews,

                              The Talmud is also very revealing in various blatant Racist teachings, we cited some of them previously and the Jews that saw it basically did a runner.

                              Anyway to get to the original point, a Muslim believes in and follows the final revelation the Qur'an and his messenger صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وسلم

                              If they follow the books of the Jews, Christians, Hindus or any other religion then they are obviously not Muslim.

                              Regards
                              Problem is that most of the jews today are a converted peoples, a.k.a. Askenazi, who are descended from Khazaria in Southern Russia in the 10th century which means they are illegitimate jews not having any rightful claim in Palestine since they are not a Semitic people from the blood of Abraham a.s.
                              The Prophet s.a.a.w warned when he said: "You will surely follow the ways of those who came before you, in exactly the same fashion, to the point were they to enter the hole of a lizard, you too would enter it." It was asked of him, "O Messenger of Allah s.a.a.w., do you mean the Jews and Christians?" He replied, "Who else?" (Bukhari and Muslim)

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