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I need response to this atheist argument which I read from his book

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ahsen82 View Post
    But this does not mean we should start questioning the commands of God. Every command of God is wise. Every command of God has a benefit for us, if not in this world, then in the Hereafter.
    How do you know ever command of God is wise? Maybe he has really poor impulse control, and issues unwise commands out of his whims.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by hatsoff View Post

      How do you know ever command of God is wise? Maybe he has really poor impulse control, and issues unwise commands out of his whims.
      God by definition is the all wise, perfect, all knowledgeable etc... It is the Christian perspective, and other religions, which say god is (a3oothobillah) a human, or a cow, or whatever else they came up with, which tends to influence others perception on god. God by definition does not make mistakes.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ahmedyounes View Post

        God by definition is the all wise, perfect, all knowledgeable etc... It is the Christian perspective, and other religions, which say god is (a3oothobillah) a human, or a cow, or whatever else they came up with, which tends to influence others perception on god. God by definition does not make mistakes.
        It doesn't really work to say that God is all-wise by definition. I could just as easily say God is unwise by definition. Who is right? Rather, you have to *determine* whether God is wise. But how does one determine that?

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        • #19
          Simple, you look at his perfect creation.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by muslim4life76 View Post

            common sense

            e.g Suppose you have a gun and ball at the same height and you were to shoot the gun and drop the ball AT THE SAME TIME common sense intuition says the ball would drop first but based on Galileo discovery all objects accelerate at the same rate both would reach at the same time.

            He gives other examples how common sense can be wrong e.g people believed earth is flat . Also, (I added this) e.g mirage in the desert is an illusion since we rely on our INTUITION.
            Originally posted by muslim4life76 View Post

            The whole of any body is larger than its part . This is a logical statement which I do not need to experience

            this leads me to another question what is the difference between logic and rationality?
            So when you say “common sense” you actually mean that impulsive “gut feeling” that we sometimes experience. This is not a source of knowledge, and our belief in the existence of God is not based upon it.

            “Gut feelings” are not a source of knowledge, because they can involve imagination and emotionalism. They are also influenced by ones upbringing. They are highly prone to error, and should not be depended on.

            This seems to be the case with all of the examples you offered. To take the flat earth example: just because the earth locally appears to be flat, doesn’t mean it is so in its entirety. This was just a mistake of the imagination that was popular in ancient times, and it is one without any rational justification.

            Our belief in the existence of God is not based upon “gut feelings”, it is based upon reason. Reason is the human ability to deduce more complex information from axioms (self evident truths, those that require no pondering to be known, whether conceptual or propositional).

            Propositions that are true by rational necessity include: “the whole of any body is larger than its part”, “even numbers are divisible by two”, “whatever emerges into existence was brought into existence by a creator”... etc. in each case, you require no more than a mere understanding of the terminology in order to deduce that the proposition is true.

            “Logic” is simply a set of standards, that when abided by, ensures that you make no mistakes during this deductive process.

            Propositions that are judged according to experience, are said to be judged nomically or nomologically (Al-Hukm Al-'Adi). For example: judging that “fire burns cotton”, which is based on repeatedly observing a correlation (between cotton coming into contact with a flame, and the cotton burning). This is a different topic altogether.

            Nomic judgements cannot falsify rational judgements, because rational judgment depend on the essence of the subject (i.e. the fact that the subject is itself), whereas nomic judgement depend on observing the subject, and a subject cannot be observed being not itself.


            Originally posted by muslim4life76 View Post
            Objects like tables, chair, cars.
            Yes, which is what I also meant when I said bodies. Beings with dimensions (a width, height or depth) stretched out in space. We know those beings beganto exist, because they areinseparable from accidents like rest and motion. And whatever is inseparablefrom accidentsis emergent. More on this here.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by karkooshy View Post



              So when you say “common sense” you actually mean that impulsive “gut feeling” that we sometimes experience. This is not a source of knowledge, and our belief in the existence of God is not based upon it.

              “Gut feelings” are not a source of knowledge, because they can involve imagination and emotionalism. They are also influenced by ones upbringing. They are highly prone to error, and should not be depended on.

              This seems to be the case with all of the examples you offered. To take the flat earth example: just because the earth locally appears to be flat, doesn’t mean it is so in its entirety. This was just a mistake of the imagination that was popular in ancient times, and it is one without any rational justification.

              Our belief in the existence of God is not based upon “gut feelings”, it is based upon reason. Reason is the human ability to deduce more complex information from axioms (self evident truths, those that require no pondering to be known, whether conceptual or propositional).

              Propositions that are true by rational necessity include: “the whole of any body is larger than its part”, “even numbers are divisible by two”, “whatever emerges into existence was brought into existence by a creator”... etc. in each case, you require no more than a mere understanding of the terminology in order to deduce that the proposition is true.

              “Logic” is simply a set of standards, that when abided by, ensures that you make no mistakes during this deductive process.

              Propositions that are judged according to experience, are said to be judged nomically or nomologically (Al-Hukm Al-'Adi). For example: judging that “fire burns cotton”, which is based on repeatedly observing a correlation (between cotton coming into contact with a flame, and the cotton burning). This is a different topic altogether.

              Nomic judgements cannot falsify rational judgements, because rational judgment depend on the essence of the subject (i.e. the fact that the subject is itself), whereas nomic judgement depend on observing the subject, and a subject cannot be observed being not itself.




              Yes, which is what I also meant when I said bodies. Beings with dimensions (a width, height or depth) stretched out in space. We know those beings beganto exist, because they areinseparable from accidents like rest and motion. And whatever is inseparablefrom accidentsis emergent. More on this here.
              Jzk for that response and the link

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              • #22
                Originally posted by hatsoff View Post

                How do you know ever command of God is wise? Maybe he has really poor impulse control, and issues unwise commands out of his whims.
                then such is not really God

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                • #23
                  Dont try and give dawah to people who debate you and try to find faults in islam they dont want islam their hearts are sealed
                  ​​​​​​if they were sincere they wouldnt argue

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dontknowname View Post

                    then such is not really God
                    Why not? Why couldn't God have poor impulse control?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by muslim4life76 View Post
                      Asalamualakum
                      Our common sense tells us the universe had a creator which this atheist guy admits but he tries to show this common sense can be wrong . The e.g he gives is Suppose you have a gun and ball at the same height and you were to shoot the gun and drop the ball AT THE SAME TIME common sense intuition says the ball would drop first but based on Galileo discovery all objects accelerate at the same rate both would reach at the same time.

                      He gives other examples how common sense can be wrong e.g people believed earth is flat . Also, (I added this) e.g mirage in the desert is an illusion since we rely on our INTUITION.

                      He also mentions just because we see things come into existence and die like plants etc we cannot APPLY that to the universe to say it had a beginning because we have not experienced it. In other words how can you experience something that cannot be experienced. In other words the beginning of the universe.

                      Questions

                      1. Is rationality and common sense the same ? if no how are they different?

                      2. How can we trust our intuition when it can be wrong ?

                      3. The belief objects have makers

                      is this based upon our experience because we see things being made thats HOW we know objects have makers

                      4. Is rationality based upon experience?
                      so e.g if u say everything tht begins to exist has a cause how do you know that is true ? is that because u have experienced it in this world? or is it an innate type of knowledge ? How can we apply that to the universe?
                      Wa Alaykumus Salaam wa Rahmatullah,

                      One can know something from rationality, common sense, intuition and/or experience.

                      Rationality is using principle of logic to determine if the argument is valid.
                      Common sense is to have a sound judgment without going through the process of investigating it thoroughly i.e. form simple perception you form a sound judgment.
                      Intuition is to form a judgment based on feelings.
                      Fitrah is the innate disposition of the human being as we know from the Hadith of the Prophet pbuh.

                      Rationality, common sense, intuition and even experience can all be right and can all be wrong. These are faculties that the human being employs to know and act.

                      An analyst may use rationality to determine the cause of error in transactions.
                      A boy may use common sense to know that someone typed the message.
                      A baby intuitively suckles milk from the mother (not because it knows that it will die if he/she doesn't it).


                      Fitrah pertains to the human beings innate disposition to worship Allah. This is something everyone hold on to and not deny.

                      "He also mentions just because we see things come into existence and die like plants etc we cannot APPLY that to the universe to say it had a beginning because we have not experienced it. In other words how can you experience something that cannot be experienced. In other words the beginning of the universe."
                      Well what about death? He has not died yet, but he must agree that death exists, right? Death is the greatest certainty. And even though he has not died, he must attest that death exists.

                      Sahih International: How can you disbelieve in Allah when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned.

                      So the focal point of all this is that before you start talking about the universe having a beginning from the inference that objects are created from a creator, before you do any of that, look at yourself first.... you yourself are created in this life. You were dead before this. You were not alive. You were lifeless. And bam, you're alive now. He brought you to life and you were lifeless before (there is life after lifelessness). And soon He will cause you to die, and bring YOU back to life.

                      So do you yourself agree that you are created?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by muslim4life76 View Post
                        Asalamualakum
                        Our common sense tells us the universe had a creator which this atheist guy admits but he tries to show this common sense can be wrong . The e.g he gives is Suppose you have a gun and ball at the same height and you were to shoot the gun and drop the ball AT THE SAME TIME common sense intuition says the ball would drop first but based on Galileo discovery all objects accelerate at the same rate both would reach at the same time.

                        He gives other examples how common sense can be wrong e.g people believed earth is flat . Also, (I added this) e.g mirage in the desert is an illusion since we rely on our INTUITION.

                        He also mentions just because we see things come into existence and die like plants etc we cannot APPLY that to the universe to say it had a beginning because we have not experienced it. In other words how can you experience something that cannot be experienced. In other words the beginning of the universe.

                        Questions

                        1. Is rationality and common sense the same ? if no how are they different?

                        2. How can we trust our intuition when it can be wrong ?

                        3. The belief objects have makers

                        is this based upon our experience because we see things being made thats HOW we know objects have makers

                        4. Is rationality based upon experience?
                        so e.g if u say everything tht begins to exist has a cause how do you know that is true ? is that because u have experienced it in this world? or is it an innate type of knowledge ? How can we apply that to the universe?


                        Assalamu alaikum,

                        1+1 = 2


                        you can see it adds up with your own eyes.


                        Just like we can see that the universe is a mathematical miracle, it must have been created and designed. The writer of the book you mentioned is just causing confusion and putting theories of "What if?" and then with zero proof or evidence creating doubt by confusion.

                        The Qur'an is a miracle in its self. It cant be matched, it cant be changed, 1400 years and it still lives on. It teaches us the perfect way of life, the best way to live our life, the best way to harmonize and perfect the soul and society, clearly its a magnificent book, a manual for the human creation. The Sunnah of the prophet (saw) has shown he prophesied many things which came true, all of this is real evidence that there is a creator and that Islam is the truth.


                        If some guy wants to come with a book he made up full of "what ifs" or "ooo we MAY be wrong" and what ever other nonsense that doesn't prove how the universe/we were created, it will never match the miracle of the Qur'an. Common sense might sometimes lead us to believe wrong things, but if the only answer to 1+1 is "2" then we know the answer must be 2...


                        Have you seen the video "The signs" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BhPf90ruoY

                        I love watching it, I've watched it many times and find it fascinating and a great imaan booster. It is a science based documentary style video that basically abolishes all the atheists view points, proving them wrong.



                        tbh though all this atheism stuff may be better just ignored. We know Islam is the truth, all we need to do is die believers and hope for the mercy of Allah. Why let all these misguided peoples confused thoughts infiltrate our imaan? We have a £trillion+ retirement fund waiting for us in the next life insha'Allah, we need to focus on making sure we get this payout from Allah, and protect our minds from being robbed of this great bounty by the thief's of Imaan, the atheists and their misguided views.

                        Last edited by wanderer1; 16-03-18, 12:39 AM.
                        www.puremuslimmatch.com

                        *The Free Marriage Agency for practising Muslims*

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by hatsoff View Post

                          Why not? Why couldn't God have poor impulse control?
                          why cant a human be a cat and still be considered a human

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
                            Dont try and give dawah to people who debate you and try to find faults in islam they dont want islam their hearts are sealed
                            ​​​​​​if they were sincere they wouldnt argue
                            I don't get how that works. I know of a person who argued a lot but then he became Muslim.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by muslim4life76 View Post
                              Asalamualakum
                              Our common sense tells us the universe had a creator which this atheist guy admits but he tries to show this common sense can be wrong . The e.g he gives is Suppose you have a gun and ball at the same height and you were to shoot the gun and drop the ball AT THE SAME TIME common sense intuition says the ball would drop first but based on Galileo discovery all objects accelerate at the same rate both would reach at the same time.

                              He gives other examples how common sense can be wrong e.g people believed earth is flat . Also, (I added this) e.g mirage in the desert is an illusion since we rely on our INTUITION.

                              He also mentions just because we see things come into existence and die like plants etc we cannot APPLY that to the universe to say it had a beginning because we have not experienced it. In other words how can you experience something that cannot be experienced. In other words the beginning of the universe.

                              Questions

                              1. Is rationality and common sense the same ? if no how are they different?

                              2. How can we trust our intuition when it can be wrong ?

                              3. The belief objects have makers

                              is this based upon our experience because we see things being made thats HOW we know objects have makers

                              4. Is rationality based upon experience?
                              so e.g if u say everything tht begins to exist has a cause how do you know that is true ? is that because u have experienced it in this world? or is it an innate type of knowledge ? How can we apply that to the universe?
                              Bro, may Allah bless you. May Allah keep you sound and May Allah keep your family sound. And May Allah cause you to enter Paradise in the after life. Ameen.

                              Bro, there are much better ways you can spend your time by reading books on tafseer, fiqh, usul al-fiqh ,aqeedah, biographies of sahaba. Please read this post:

                              https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/li...t-philosophers

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by hatsoff View Post

                                How do you know ever command of God is wise? Maybe he has really poor impulse control, and issues unwise commands out of his whims.
                                Sounds like somebody is trying too hard to make Muslims lose their cool. Wink wink !

                                Comment

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