New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

[tayyiboon]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

It's not that Allah is bound...1+1=2 because that's the law of math Allah created of course He can change natural laws if He wills..

But another reason, Asharis say that Allah does not move because movement is change and Allah does not change so hence we don't say He moves or comes down in the third part of the night or sits on the throne literally because it also does affirm a body which again is only for created beings and bodies take up space and matter which is again created so we can't attribute a body to Allah and don't you need a body inorder to move? And another reason is that we don't ascribe a location or direction to Allah that's also shirk to Asharis... Asharis also affirm Rahmah and other attributes of Allah but they don't see it as an emotion
https://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/2...ut-not-allaah/

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But I don't get why Salafis follow Ibn Taymiyyah on Aqidah when Ibn Taymiyyah repented from his beliefs about Allah before he died...many scholars refuted him so it's best not to follow Ibn Taymiyyah on Aqidah but he was brilliant in the matters of fiqh so even Hanafi and other madhhabs cite him for fiqhi matters

so when the Prophet :saw: clearly states Allah comes down why can't you believe it as it is without having to go into details as "bodies" moving etc.!!!!

[Abu Sulayman]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

I was, believe it or not. It was a book written by al-Juwayni, I believe, and the way he delved into the nature of Allah, was rather disturbing. I think he was rebutting the Mu'tazilla in the book.

Go and read al-Naqdh 'ala Bishr al-Marisi (Ibn Taymiyyah's and Ibn Qayyim's favorite book) and then you'll see what disturbing is.

See when you use the rationale of Ajsaam to negate Sukun and Harakah then you have the onlooker like me wondering if the Salafis aren't lying after all because they say that this is the very logic based upon which the Ash'aris have rejected certain Sifah of Allah and then say that this was borrowed from the philosophers.

First of all: Just because "Salafis" call something as a Sifah it does not mean that it's a divine attribute in reality. You'll find among them even people who claim that boredom (Malal) is divine attribute.
And even if something is a divine attribute, then it does not mean that one needs to [mis]understand it like the "Salafis" do.

Then: Being rational and logical in one's thinking is nothing bad. The foundation of Islam is rational unlike other religions and convictions (read this: The Foundations of the Religion | Sunni Answers ). If something is rationally decisive, then rejecting it would mean to reject the true religion, because the correctness of the religion is shown through reason.

From a rational point of view it can be shown that whatever is subject to changes must have a beginning. Imagine that something moves for certain amount of time and then stops moving for a certain amount of time and then this cycle repeats itself over and over again. This means that this thing goes through moments. Is it possible for such a thing to be eternal? No, because in order to reach this very moment it would need to have passed through a infinte amount of moments/cycles and an infinite amount of moments would not come to an end, which would make it impossible to reach this moment. (That's why the Ahl al-Sunnah say that time does not apply to Allah ta'ala.)

As for "borrowed from the philosophers": The Asha'irah and the Falasifah were enemies (this is historical fact!) and disagreed on major issues. One of the best refutations against the Falasifah (i.e. Tahafut al-Falasifah) was written by a Ash'ari scholar (i.e. Imam al-Ghazali (d. 505 AH), while Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH), who loved to put the Mutakallimun from the Ahl al-Sunnah together with the Falasifah, ended up agreeing with the Falasifah on major points (like accepting a modified version of the claim of the Falasifah that the universe is eternal, which is disbelief by agreement!).
And: Just because the Falasifah tried to use logical and rational arguments, this does not mean that rational arguments are in itself wrong. These types of Mughalatat are really getting on my nerves.

[Qiyamah]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

so when the Prophet :saw: clearly states Allah comes down why can't you believe it as it is without having to go into details as "bodies" moving etc.!!!!

Because we don't take every hadith literally and Arabs used lots of idioms and metaphors in their language, no where the Prophet :saw: states it's literal descent...you can't escape movement if you affirm that Allah descends or comes down so we have to interpret it metaphorically.......or involving His angels
Salafis say Allah is literally on the throne so does that mean He also leaves the throne and what happens when He leaves the throne? it's very problematic so it's best not to take it literally..........
and most scholars state it's kufr to take it literally.....
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Maturidis and Asharis interpret that hadith metaphorically as the following
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http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011/...f-every-night/
"
IBN HAJAR'S COMMENTARY

Following is the text of Ibn Hajar's commentary on the hadith of descent:
Those who assert direction for Allah have used this hadith as proof that He is in the direction of aboveness. The vast majority of the scholars reject this, because such a saying leads to establishing boundaries for Him and Allah is exalted above that.16
The meaning of "descent" is interpreted differently:

Al-Bayhaqi said:
"The safest method is to believe in them without modality, and to keep silence concerning what is meant except if the explanation is conveyed from the Prophet himself, in which case it is followed." The proof for this is the agreement of the scholars that the specific interpretation is not obligatory, and that therefore the commitment of meaning to Allah is safest....Al-Bayhaqi said:
"The safest method is to believe in them without modality, and to keep silence concerning what is meant except if the explanation is conveyed from the Prophet himself, in which case it is followed." The proof for this is the agreement of the scholars that the specific interpretation is not obligatory, and that therefore the commitment of meaning to Allah is safest....

Nevertheless, not all the Salaf let them pass, as al-Bayhaqi relates from the Tabi`i Hammad ibn Zayd that he interpreted Allah's descent to the nearest heaven as "His turning to" (nuzuluhu iqbaluhu).9
Ibn al-Jawzi cautioned: "Since you understand that the one who descends towards you is near to you, content yourself with the knowledge that He is near you, and do not think in terms of bodily nearness."10 Ibn al-Jawzi actually read the verb "descend" in the hadith of Bukhari and Muslim as yunzilu ("He orders down") instead of yanzilu ("He comes down").11 This was also the Ash`ari imam Ibn Furak's reading according to Ibn Hajar who confirms its soundness in view of al-Nasa'i's narration. This furthers confirms al-Qurtubi's reading and the interpretations of Malik and Hammad ibn Zayd.
AL-BAJI'S COMMENTARY

Abu al-Walid al-Baji stated in his commentary of Malik's Muwatta':
The Prophet's -- Allah bless and greet him -- saying that our Exalted Lord descends every night to the nearest heaven is to inform us that supplication at that particular time is answered, petitioners are given what they request, and those who ask for forgiveness are forgiven. It warns us as to the great merit of that time and strongly encourages us to make abundant supplication, petition, and contrition at that time. It was narrated from the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- in similar terms that Allah Almighty and Exalted said: "If My servant comes near Me one hand-span I come near him one cubit. If he comes near Me one cubit I come near him an arm's length. If he comes to Me walking, I come to him running."12 He did not mean by this hadith a coming-near in terms of distance, for such is impossible and inexistent. All he meant was the servant's coming-near in terms of good works, and Allah's coming-near in terms of answer and acceptance. In the same sense one says "So-and-so is near So-and-so," and they say of the leader "He is near his people" if he helps them a lot and welcomes them. This is well-known in the language of the Arabs.13

http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/haddad/A...20Descent1.htm

[tayyiboon]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

Because we don't take every hadith literally and Arabs used lots of idioms and metaphors in their language, no where the Prophet :saw: states it's literal descent...you can't escape movement if you affirm that Allah descends or comes down so we have to interpret it metaphorically.......or involving His angels


http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/haddad/A...20Descent1.htm

i will agree to disagree, keep your understanding and turn the Hadith into something very ordinary, because Angels coming down to the sky is nothing special, and then how on earth can an Angel say "ask ME for forgiveness"??? It does not make any sense..

let me have the beautiful understanding as the Hadith itself says, so that the last third of the night actually means something so special and awesome....Allah Himself coming down and asking us to make dua to Him, how great and amazing is that? Alhamdulillah

[Qiyamah]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

i will agree to disagree, keep your understanding and turn the Hadith into something very ordinary, because Angels coming down to the sky is nothing special, and then how on earth can an Angel say "ask ME for forgiveness"??? It does not make any sense..

let me have the beautiful understanding as the Hadith itself says, so that the last third of the night actually means something so special and awesome....Allah Himself coming down and asking us to make dua to Him, how great and amazing is that? Alhamdulillah

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...730&Itemid=106
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I still find the hadith beautiful that Allah is more likely to grant your dua in that part of the night or sends down His angels..but Allah personally coming down sounds so wrong.... how can you interpret it as that but one thing you can do is to take the hadith as it is without confirming it metaphorically or literally like the salaf did, they didn't delve into it, they said they accept it as what Allah means by it , please be careful on what you ascribe to Allah, if you are wrong about what you say regarding Allah, then hell is your residence... .. do you also think Allah runs, laughs etc as hadiths state? those you have to use interpret metaphorically because it's kufr to take literally according to Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah.

[tayyiboon]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

I still find the hadith beautiful that Allah is more likely to grant your dua in that part of the night or sends down His angels..but Allah personally coming down sounds so wrong.... how can you interpret it as that but one thing you can do is to take the hadith as it is without confirming it metaphorically or literally like the salaf did, they didn't delve into it, they said they accept it as what Allah means by it , please be careful on what you ascribe to Allah, if you are wrong about what you say regarding Allah, then hell is your residence... .. do you also think Allah runs, laughs etc as hadiths state? those you have to use interpret metaphorically because it's kufr to take literally according to Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah.

please read the Hadith again, it clearly says Allah says "ask ME for forgiveness" and you people say the angels said so!!! Angels do not have the right to forgive someone, only Allah does and never anywhere you will find Angels saying such things but just because you cannot take the Hadith as is without distorting it you resort to such weird interpretations and yes the Hadith loses its beauty, can you even compare Allah to His Angels????

[I See You]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

Because we don't take every hadith literally and Arabs used lots of idioms and metaphors in their language, no where the Prophet :saw: states it's literal descent...you can't escape movement if you affirm that Allah descends or comes down so we have to interpret it metaphorically.......or involving His angels
Salafis say Allah is literally on the throne so does that mean He also leaves the throne and what happens when He leaves the throne? it's very problematic so it's best not to take it literally..........
and most scholars state it's kufr to take it literally.....
====
Maturidis and Asharis interpret that hadith metaphorically as the following
---
http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011/...f-every-night/
"

:jkk:

:brf:

[Qiyamah]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

please read the Hadith again, it clearly says Allah says "ask ME for forgiveness" and you people say the angels said so!!! Angels do not have the right to forgive someone, only Allah does and never anywhere you will find Angels saying such things but just because you cannot take the Hadith as is without distorting it you resort to such weird interpretations and yes the Hadith loses its beauty, can you even compare Allah to His Angels????

Yes you ask Allah for forgiveness not the Angels no one mentioned angels being able to forgive but the Angels are also servants of Allah they do what Allah commands..I just mentioned angels descending not that angels come to forgive anyone...I think you misunderstood what I said..nothing can be comparable to Allah. He is the Majestic Sublime Lord of the Worlds.
And there was two interpretations, also the scholars mentioned that Allah is more merciful and likely to answer the dua at that time..and Allah does send down angels to protect us as a mercy too but it's not befitting to say the Most Exalted comes down/descends so scholars say the hadith is saying Allah's angels,command or mercy descends. He is above coming down or descending if you still disagree just then agree to disagree, we both made our points so no point in repeating the same thing over!

An example of Allah sending down Angels is this beautiful story of an angel coming down to save a sahabi by the command of Allah that I hope you see the beauty in it :)

Idk why is video code off :scratch: it doesnt work on tablets or mobile?


Even if you think the Hadith loses its beauty after taking it metaphorically still it's better than falling into kufr :D

[ZeeshanParvez]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

Go and read al-Naqdh 'ala Bishr al-Marisi (Ibn Taymiyyah's and Ibn Qayyim's favorite book) and then you'll see what disturbing is.

I remember how you once said that these discussions are quite pointless. Neither side is going to accept the others position. Heck, this has been going on in the past. Subki began accusing Al-Dhahabi, in his Tabaqaat, (I believe it was) that he was leaving the Aqeedah of the Ahl Al-Sunnah and leaning toward the Hanbali Aqeedah. I do not see what good reading the book you have mentioned will do but since I have so much time on my hands guess I will read it.

Interestingbook.jpg

First of all: Just because "Salafis" call something as a Sifah it does not mean that it's a divine attribute in reality. You'll find among them even people who claim that boredom (Malal) is divine attribute.
And even if something is a divine attribute, then it does not mean that one needs to [mis]understand it like the "Salafis" do.

You know I do not even know where to start. Consider this article. He goes on and on about Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Al-Qayyim when they say:

The Foundations of the Religion | Sunni Answers ). If something is rationally decisive, then rejecting it would mean to reject the true religion, because the correctness of the religion is shown through reason.


I mean if he is going to say all that about him he may well have said the same about Mujaahid the great Taabi' Mufassir who held the same opinion. And if I am not mistaken Imaam Al-Tabari defended the opinion by saying that it was not wrong. So, why single out two men. Let's go back and shoot all the people.

Anyway, I know all these things are getting on your nerves, but hey look at it this way - the rivalry between you Ash'aris and the Hanbalis is not a new one. It has remained unsolved and I do not think it is going to be solved any time soon.

[Abu Sulayman]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

And after having read both sides [and without getting into what I personally believe] the whole problem with the Ash'ari perspective is that is that similitude right there in bold.

No offence bro, but judging from your posts you seem to be heavily influenced by what the "Salafis" say regarding Ash'aris and you still do not fully know what the Madhhab of Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH) really is. I'm quite sure that there are statements which he made, which you would defintely not agree with (or at least I hope so). (FYI: According to his understanding believing that Allah ta'ala is a body is not a problem at all, but rather correct; he's just against using the expression "Jism" in negative and positive way.)

The Ash'aris observe the creation and then draw logical conclusions that this cannot be with Allah or else it is Tajseem.

A simple question: Is Allah ta'ala similar to the creation?
According to the Qur`an al-karim the answer is definetly no. The scholars of Ahl al-Sunnah regard the Ayat concerning this issue from the Muhkamat and understand all mutashabih Ayat in their context (while "Salafis" do the exact opposite).
If this becomes known, then we can also say: Allah ta'ala is not described with meanings that apply to humans [or the creation in general].
Imam al-Tahawi (d. 321 AH) said in his famous text regarding 'Aqidah that anyone who describes Allah ta'ala with a meaning from among the meanings that apply to humans [and the rest of creation] has disbelieved ("ومن وصف الله بمعنى من معاني البشر فقد كفر ، فمن أبصر هذا اعتبر ، وعن مثل قول الكفار انزجر ، وعلم أنه بصفاته ليس كالبشر"; Source: al-'Aqidah al-Tahawiyyah.)

If all the above is known, then why is it wrong for the Asha'irah (and the Ahl al-Sunnah in general) to say that the meanings that apply to the creation do not apply to Allah ta'ala?

Anything which has a Jism moves in this world. The Ash'aris take this concept and say if we say Allah moves than that means He has a Jism. Since when was that applicable? Allah isn't like anything.

If you know that Allah isn't like anything, you shouldn't have described Him subhanahu wa ta'ala with movement in the first place!

Movement does necessitate Huduth and Tajsim no matter whether you acknowledge this or not.
And FYI: If you don't believe in this Lazim based upon "Lazim al-Madhhab laysa bi Madhab", then let it be known to you that Ibn Taymiyyah would agree that it nessitates Tajsim (but he obviously would disagree regarding Huduth). But according to Ibn Taymiyyah Tajsim is no problem, infact he argues that that everything that subsists in itself - no matter whether it's wajib (i.e. the Creator) or mumkin (i.e. the creaiton) in its existance - must necessarily be described with the meaning that we intend by the word Jism (body = 3-dimensional object). According to him it's NECASSARY for Allah's existance that He's spatially confined (mutahayyiz) and he also argues that one is able to physically point (Isharah hissiyyah) at the right [side] of God separately from the left just like one is able to point at the northern side of the sun separately from the southern side (this is clear-cut Tajsim and does not need any further discussion!). You can find all of these [and more] in his Bayan Talbis al-Jahmiyyah.

If we accept that He said that He moves from one place to another why does the concept of a Jism hold for Him? Just because we see that in this world if something moves it has a Jism?

Who gave you the right to claim that Allah ta'ala moves from one place to another, while Allah ta'ala did not say that, rather He revealed in his noble book that there is nothing like unto Him.
Allah ta'ala is High Exalted above being contained by a place or being described with movement or with any other meaning from among the meaning that applies to the creation.

And the whole issue is that the movement of the Ash'aris started off from debates with the Mu'tazilla. To combat their 'logical' arguments, the Imaams of the Ash'aris had to come up with logical answers. A Being who creates that which has no model or form, gives life to the dead, makes Jesus (peace be upon him) enter this world without a father, etc., you want to say that if one attributes anything to Him which would result in a Jism if we were to attribute that same thing to something in this world makes no sense at all.

Based on this logic, I guess you would agree that since 1+1 = 2, Allah cannot make it equal 3 or 4 if He Wills? He is bound, right?

Let me tell you one thing: If you want to reject things that are rationally decisive (and in some cases even self-evident), then you're opening for yourself a very dangerous door. Through opening this door all types of Kufriyyat and Shirkiyyat (like for example believing that Allah ta'ala has a son, or believing in the existance of many Gods or even the rejection of God's existance altogether) can be justified.

If you reject the God-given reason, then based upon what exactly do you know that the mountains are created? And from where do you know that the sun, the moon and the stars are created?
If you say that the mountains, the sun, the moon and the stars have a form/shape, a mass/weight, limits and change their state and that all of this makes it necessary that someone has given them these specifications and therefore they must be created (and this is true without any doubt), then let it be known to you that the "Salafis" print books where Allah ta'ala is described with all of these attributes. What is other than Tashbih and opening the door to atheism, disbelief and apostasy? We ask Allah ta'ala for well-being.

[Abu Sulayman]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

A simple question: Is Allah ta'ala similar to the creation?
According to the Qur`an al-karim the answer is definetly no. The scholars of Ahl al-Sunnah regard the Ayat concerning this issue from the Muhkamat and understand all mutashabih Ayat in their context (while "Salafis" do the exact opposite).
If this becomes known, then we can also say: Allah ta'ala is not described with meanings that apply to humans [or the creation in general].
Imam al-Tahawi (d. 321 AH) said in his famous text regarding 'Aqidah that anyone who describes Allah ta'ala with a meaning from among the meanings that apply to humans [and the rest of creation] has disbelieved ("ومن وصف الله بمعنى من معاني البشر فقد كفر ، فمن أبصر هذا اعتبر ، وعن مثل قول الكفار انزجر ، وعلم أنه بصفاته ليس كالبشر"; Source: al-'Aqidah al-Tahawiyyah.)

If all the above is known, then why is it wrong for the Asha'irah (and the Ahl al-Sunnah in general) to say that the meanings that apply to the creation do not apply to Allah ta'ala?

Imam al-Bayhaqi (d. 458 AH) said:

ثُمَّ يَعْلَمُ أَنَّ صَانِعَ الْعَالَمِ لَا يُشْبِهُ شَيْئًا مِنَ الْعَالَمِ؛ لِأَنَّهُ لَوْ أَشْبَهَ شيْئًا مِنَ الْمُحْدَثَاتِ بِجِهَةٍ مِنَ الْجِهَاتِ لَأَشْبَهَهُ فِي الْحُدُوثِ مِنْ تِلْكَ الْجِهَةِ، وَمُحَالٌ أَنْ يَكُونَ الْقَدِيمُ مُحْدَثًا، أَوْ يَكُونَ قَدِيمًا مِنْ جِهَةٍ حَدِيثًا مِنْ جِهَةٍ؛ وَلِأَنَّهُ يَسْتَحِيلُ أَنْ يَكُونَ الْفَاعِلُ يَفْعَلُ مِثْلَهُ، كَالشَّاتِمِ لَا يَكُونُ شَتْمًا وَقَدْ فَعَلَ الشَّتْمَ، وَالْكَاذِبُ لَا يَكُونُ كَذِبًا وَقَدْ فَعَلَ الْكَذِبَ؛ وَلِأَنَّهُ يَسْتَحِيلُ أَنْ يَكُونَ شَيْئَانِ مِثْلَيْنِ يَفْعَلُ أَحَدُهُمَا صَاحِبَهُ؛ لِأَنَّهُ لَيْسَ أَحَدُ الْمِثْلَيْنِ بِأَنْ يَفْعَلَ صَاحِبَهُ أَوْلَى مِنَ الْآخَرِ، وَإِذَا كَانَ كَذَلِكَ لَمْ يَكُنْ لِأَحَدِهِمَا عَلَى الْآخَرِ مَزِيَّةٌ يَسْتَحِقُّ لِأَجْلِهَا أَنْ يَكُونَ مُحْدِثًا لَهُ؛ لِأَنَّ هَذَا حُكْمُ الْمِثْلَيْنِ فِيمَا تَمَاثَلَا فِيهِ، وَإِذَا كَانَ كَذَلِكَ اسْتَحَالَ أَنْ يَكُونَ الْبَارِي سُبْحَانَهُ مُشْبِهًا لِلْأَشْيَاءِ، فهُوَ كَمَا وَصَفَ نفْسَهُ {لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ} [الشورى: 11] ، وَقَالَ: {قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ، اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ} [الإخلاص: 1]حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْحَافِظُ، أنا أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَعْقُوبَ الْحَافِظُ، وَأَبُو جَعْفَرٍ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ صَالِحِ بْنِ هَانِئٍ، قَالَا: ثنا الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ الْفَضْلِ، ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ سَابِقٍ، ثنا أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ الرَّازِيُّ، عَنِ الرَّبِيعِ بْنِ أَنَسٍ، عَنْ أَبِي الْعَالِيَةِ، عَنْ أُبَيِّ بْنِ كَعْبٍ، أَنَّ الْمُشْرِكِينَ، قَالُوا: يَا مُحَمَّدُ، انْسُبْ لَنَا رَبَّكَ، فَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى {قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ} [الإخلاص: 2] ؛ لِأَنَّهُ لَيْسَ شَيْءٌ يُولَدُ إِلَّا سَيَمُوتُ، وَلَيْسَ شَيْءٌ يَمُوتُ إِلَا سَيُوَرَّثُ، وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ لَا يَمُوتُ وَلَا يُوَرَّثُ، {وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ} [الإخلاص: 4] ، لَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ شَبِيهٌ وَلَا عِدْلٌ {لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ} [الشورى: 11]
أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو زَكَرِيَّا يَحْيَى بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، أنا أَبُو الْحَسَنِ الطَّرَائِفِيُّ، ثنا عُثْمَانُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، ثنا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ صَالِحٍ، عَنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ صَالِحٍ، عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَلْحَةَ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، فِي قَوْلِهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ: {وَلِلَّهِ الْمَثَلُ الْأَعْلَى} [النحل: 60] ، قَالَ: يَقُولُ: لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ، وَفِي قَوْلِهِ: {هَلْ تَعْلَمُ لَهُ سَمِيًّا} [مريم: 65] ، يَقُولُ: هَلْ تَعْلَمُ لِلرَّبِّ مَثَلًا أَوْ شَبِيهًا؟

"Moreover, it is known that the Creator of creation does not resemble anything of the creation, because if He resembled any originated thing in any way, He would resemble it in origination from that aspect, and it is impossible for the beginningless to be temporal, or beginningless from one angle and temporal from another; and because it is impossible for a Doer to do the like of Himself, like an abuser is not abuse although he carried out abuse and a liar will not be a lie when he carried out a lie; and because it is impossible that two things being the same, one of them performs its counterpart, because one of two equals is not more likely than the other to have performed its counterpart, and when it is so, neither of them has a distinction over the other by which it is entitled to be the originator of it since that is the law of two equal entities in that which they are equal. When it is so, it is impossible for the Maker (Glorious is He) to be similar to things. Thus, He is as He described Himself: “Naught is as His likeness; and He is the Hearer, the Seer.” (42:11) and He said: “Say: He is Allah, the One, Allah, the Independent. He begets not nor was He begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him.” (112:1-4)

Abū ‘Abd Allāh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allāh al-Hāfiz: Abū ‘Abd Allāh Muhammad ibn Ya‘qūb al-Hāfiz and Abū Ja‘far Muhammad ibn Sālih ibn Hāni’ said: al-Husayn ibn al-Fadl narrated to us: Muhammad ibn Sābiq narrated to us: Abū Jafar al-Rāzī narrated to us from al-Rabī ibn Anas from Abu l-‘Āliyah from Ubayy ibn Ka‘b that the idolaters said: “O Muhammad! Tell us the lineage of your Lord.” Thus, Allāh (Blessed and Exalted is He) said: “Say: He is Allah, the One, Allah, the Independent!” (16:60). [Ubayy said:] “Because nothing is born except it will die, and nothing dies except it will be inherited, and indeed Allāh (Glorious and Exalted is He) will not die nor will He be inherited”. “And there is none comparable unto Him”: “He has no likeness or equal, ‘Naught is as His likeness’”[6]

Abū Zakariyyā Yahyā ibn Ibrāhīm reported to us: Abu l-Hasan al-Tarā‘ifī reported to us: ‘Uthmān ibn Sa‘īd narrated to us: ‘Abd Allāh ibn Sālih narrated to us from Mu‘āwiyah ibn Sālih from ‘Alī ibn Abī Talhah from Ibn ‘Abbas about His (Great and Glorious is He) saying: “Allāh’s is the highest similitude” (16:65), he said: “Nothing is as His likeness,” and about His saying, “Do you know of one that can be named along with Him?” (19:65), he said: “Do you know of an equal or likeness of the Lord?”"


Source: al-I'tiqad wal Hidayah ila Sabil al-Rashad (translation taken from here: Imām al-Bayhaqī on Evidence for the Existence of the Creator)

[Abd al-Rahman]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

Ash'ari and Ahl Al-Sunna

Is it just me or...?

Soon enough the next book will be called, Ahlus Sunnah: The barelvis, and then, the sequel, Ahlus Sunnah: The Ahmadiyyas

[tayyiboon]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

Yes you ask Allah for forgiveness not the Angels no one mentioned angels being able to forgive but the Angels are also servants of Allah they do what Allah commands..I just mentioned angels descending not that angels come to forgive anyone...I think you misunderstood what I said..nothing can be comparable to Allah. He is the Majestic Sublime Lord of the Worlds.
And there was two interpretations, also the scholars mentioned that Allah is more merciful and likely to answer the dua at that time..and Allah does send down angels to protect us as a mercy too but it's not befitting to say the Most Exalted comes down/descends so scholars say the hadith is saying Allah's angels,command or mercy descends. He is above coming down or descending if you still disagree just then agree to disagree, we both made our points so no point in repeating the same thing over!

An example of Allah sending down Angels is this beautiful story of an angel coming down to save a sahabi by the command of Allah that I hope you see the beauty in it :)

Idk why is video code off :scratch: it doesnt work on tablets or mobile?


Even if you think the Hadith loses its beauty after taking it metaphorically still it's better than falling into kufr :D

taking the Hadith as is does not make me a kafir........many scholars have done so and continue to do so.......in my opinion it is a much better understanding...

again, you people interpret it as Angels coming down but the same Hadith says that the One who comes down says "ask ME for forgiveness" how do you reconcile with that? Angels coming down but then Allah asking us to make dua to Him???

[tayyiboon]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

===

I still find the hadith beautiful that Allah is more likely to grant your dua in that part of the night or sends down His angels..but Allah personally coming down sounds so wrong.... how can you interpret it as that but one thing you can do is to take the hadith as it is without confirming it metaphorically or literally like the salaf did, they didn't delve into it, they said they accept it as what Allah means by it , please be careful on what you ascribe to Allah, if you are wrong about what you say regarding Allah, then hell is your residence... .. do you also think Allah runs, laughs etc as hadiths state? those you have to use interpret metaphorically because it's kufr to take literally according to Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah.

yes scholars took the Hadith as is, it is you who are delving into it and saying Angels and Mercy and what not come down!! how can Angels come down and say "ask ME for forgiveness"???

We understand it as is and it is much more beautiful that way

[Abu Sulayman]

Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

Heck, this has been going on in the past. Subki began accusing Al-Dhahabi, in his Tabaqaat, (I believe it was) that he was leaving the Aqeedah of the Ahl Al-Sunnah and leaning toward the Hanbali Aqeedah.

Imam Taj al-Din al-Subki (d. 771 AH) (the son of Imam Taqi al-Din al-Subki (d. 756 AH) did indeed critisize his Shaykh the Hafidh Shams al-Din al-Dhahabi (d. 748 AH). Al-Dhahabi was a student of Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH) and was influenced by him [to a certain degree]. (From his writings it seems however that later on he was rather ashamed of being connected with Ibn Taymiyyah, because Ibn Taymiyyah loved to cause one problem after the other and loved to defend his abnormal views and to act as if he only knew right from wrong. He also explicitly said in one of his books that he disagrees with Ibn Taymiyyah in Asli and Far'i issues.)

I do not see what good reading the book you have mentioned will do but since I have so much time on my hands guess I will read it.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]81778[/ATTACH]

I've a better idea (it will take less time and will have much more benefit) since you understand Arabic: Read this thread and insha`Allah you'll understand the difference between the Madhhab of the Ahl al-Sunnah and that of Ibn Taymiyyh:

الصفات الإلهية بين أهل التنزيه وأهل التشبيه

I mean if he is going to say all that about him

He didn't say these things out of nowhere. I've read some of the things that he mentioned in quite an explicit way in Ibn Taymiyyah's Bayan Talbis al-Jahmiyyah.
(Before looking into Bayan Talbis al-Jahmiyyah I used to respect Ibn Taymiyyah.)

I mean if he is going to say all that about him he may well have said the same about Mujaahid the great Taabi' Mufassir who held the same opinion. And if I am not mistaken Imaam Al-Tabari defended the opinion by saying that it was not wrong. So, why single out two men. Let's go back and shoot all the people.

Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) did not held the same view as Imam Mujahid (d. 104 AH) regarding this issue, but you're right that Imam al-Tabari did defend him regarding it. Please consider this statement of Imam al-Qurtubi (d. 671 AH) in his Tafsir regarding the Ayah 17:79:

قلت: ذكر هذا في باب ٱبنُ شهاب في حديث التنزيل. وروي عن مجاهد أيضاً في هذه الآية قال: يُجلسه على العرش. وهذا تأويل غير مستحيل؛ لأن الله تعالى كان قبل خلقه الأشياء كلَّها والعرشَ قائماً بذاته، ثم خلق الأشياء من غير حاجة إليها، بل إظهاراً لقدرته وحكمته، وليُعرف وجوده وتوحيده وكمال قدرته وعلمه بكل أفعاله المحكمة، وخلق لنفسه عرشاً استوى عليه كما شاء من غير أن صار له مماساً، أو كان العرش له مكاناً.
قيل: هو الآن على الصفة التي كان عليها من قبل أن يخلق المكان والزمان؛ فعلى هذا القول سواء في الجواز أقعد محمد على العرش أو على الأرض؛ لأن استواء الله تعالى على العرش ليس بمعنى الانتقال والزوال وتحويل الأحوال من القيام والقعود والحال التي تشغل العرش، بل هو مستو على عرشه كما أخبر عن نفسه بلا كَيْفٍ. وليس إقعاده محمداً على العرش موجباً له صفة الربوبية أو مُخرجاً له عن صفة العبودية، بل هو رفع لمحله وتشريف له على خلقه.
{ إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ عِندَ رَبِّكَ }
[الأعراف: 206]،
{ رَبِّ ٱبْنِ لِي عِندَكَ بَيْتاً فِي ٱلْجَنَّةِ }
[التحريم: 11]،
{ وَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَمَعَ ٱلْمُحْسِنِينَ }
[العنكبوت: 69] ونحو ذلك. كل ذلك عائد إلى الرتبة والمنزلة والحُظْوة والدرجة الرفيعة، لا إلى المكان.
- end of the qoute -

Based upon the above we can say that Imam Mujahid does not necessarily intend Tashbih by that statement.
If you ask us now why we do not have the same Husn al-Dhann for Ibn Taymiyyah, then the simple answer is: Because we know what he wrote in his Bayan Talbis al-Jahmiyyah.

By the way: When Imam al-Tabari left this world - rahimahullah - the Hanabilah of Baghdad (they were quite idiotic people; not all Hanabilah were like that of course) didn't allow him to be buried in public and accused him of Rafdh and Ilhad (atheism) (which is a typical accusation of the Mushabbihah from among the Hanabilah against people who disagree with them). The Imam was buried inside his house because of this.
These people are the Salaf of the "Salafis" (and not the Sahabat al-karim nor the Tabi'in!). (The same Hanabilah also believed in things like God wearing golden sandals! Congratulations to "Salafis" for having such forefathers!)

Anyway, I know all these things are getting on your nerves, but hey look at it this way - the rivalry between you Ash'aris and the Hanbalis is not a new one. It has remained unsolved and I do not think it is going to be solved any time soon.

You're right that there has been a rivalry between the Ash'aris and many Hanbalis.
But you should consider this: The Hanabilah had the least followers historically from among the 4 Madhahib and only a part of them were Mushabbihah. Disagreeing with Ash'aris does not turn the Sunnis from among the Hanabilah into non-Sunnis, because there are legitimate Ijtihadi difference between scholars regarding some detailed issues of belief (which are simply Dhanni issues).
Ibn Taymiyyah did not just disagree with the Asha'irah concerning belief, he even rejected Tafwidh (which both the Asha'irah and the Hanabilah regard as the Madhhab of the Salaf al-salih). According to Salih bin 'Abd al-'Aziz Al al-Shaykh (one of the Mashayikh of the "Salafiyyah") most of the Hanbali Shuyukh of Ibn Taymiyyah were upon Tafwidh.