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Riba (Interest - Usury) & Islam

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  • imran1976
    replied
    Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

    I actually don't know any one who does these kamaeethus except for pakistanis tbh
    I don't remember where, but I have read that it's done in some countries of Africa as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Simply_Logical
    replied
    Originally posted by ອາໄສຢູ່ ຣາຮາມ
    Originally posted by imran1976 View Post
    Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “A time will come upon people in which they will consume usury.” It was said, “All of the people?” The Prophet said, “Whoever does not consume it will be affected by its dust.”
    ...............................

    the time has come, we live in these times --- the contemporary economic system is designed in a way that you can't escape riba'. --- this system has different tools to keep it running and paper currency is one of them.

    [An-Nisa:161]
    and for their devouring of the properties of the people by false means .....


    gold rate $35 oz, 1970
    gold rate $1850 oz, 2021

    more than 97% devaluation in 40 years --- your $10000 in 1970 is worth $300 in 2021, where is your $9700? ---- your loss is someone else gain -
    the capitalistic system devoured your $9700 by false means.

    there's no problems with adopting paper currency as a medium of exchange, provided, it's true worth is assigned and not some fake number+ people adopt it out of free will, but the fiat system was imposed (brettonwood) with fake worth.

    well said


    US dollar is global reserve currency

    When US government needs money/revenue

    It either
    1 raises taxes
    2 reduce spending
    3 borrow money
    4 print more dollars

    First 3 are unpopular/risky/difficult

    4 is easiest

    So how to print more dollars?

    US government doesn't print dollars.

    The federal reserve issues currency to the US government at a set interest rate

    So the American public has to pay for every dollar bill that is printed

    And most dollars in circulation are outside USA

    Now how to avoid riba?


    ​​​​​
    I don't always agree with him but shaykh Imran hosein us really clued up about paper money,
    He has a talk on YouTube about ribs which I'm going to listen too in sha Allah

    Leave a comment:


  • Simply_Logical
    replied
    Originally posted by imran1976
    It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
    "There are seventy degrees of usury, the least of which is equivalent to a man having intercourse with his mother."

    حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ، عَنْ أَبِي مَعْشَرٍ، عَنْ سَعِيدٍ الْمَقْبُرِيِّ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ‏ "‏ الرِّبَا سَبْعُونَ حُوبًا أَيْسَرُهَا أَنْ يَنْكِحَ الرَّجُلُ أُمَّهُ ‏"
    ‏ ‏

    [Sunan ibn Majah:2274]
    Allahu Akbar the severity of this one sin sounds next level tbh may Allah swt protect us

    Leave a comment:


  • Simply_Logical
    replied
    Originally posted by Creamcake
    I just wanted to add that i dont know why there is a perception that the first mortgage is okay, because 2 of my friends also thought this until I advised that its not. Its such a big sin its scary and one that a lot of ppl are unaware of too. I dont know why ppl see renting as a waste of money. Houses are very expensive and unless u can afford it, how can u buy it? This is why 'kameethis' exist too i guess(heard about them from others).

    If you live with fam whilst saving up thats okay. I think its important for a couple to have their own space espec when children are involved and upbringing. I also think it depends what the family is like, and some are okay to live with, without causing marital issues for the 2 ppl. And its also okay to rent forever. Everything we think we own anyway belongs to Allaah, we arent going to die with it so although its natural to feel attached, it can still be a home even if you are renting. Espec if you trust the landlord and know they arent going to just kick you out when they feel like it.
    I actually don't know any one who does these kamaeethus except for pakistanis tbh

    Leave a comment:


  • Simply_Logical
    replied
    Originally posted by imran1976
    Originally posted by ອາໄສຢູ່ ຣາຮາມ View Post
    Does the currency printed
    by Central Banks have interest on them?
    Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “A time will come upon people in which they will consume usury.” It was said, “All of the people?” The Prophet said, “Whoever does not consume it will be affected by its dust.”
    ...............................

    the time has come, we live in these times --- the contemporary economic system is designed in a way that you can't escape riba'. --- this system has different tools to keep it running and paper currency is one of them.

    [An-Nisa:161]
    and for their devouring of the properties of the people by false means .....


    gold rate $35 oz, 1970
    gold rate $1850 oz, 2021

    more than 97% devaluation in 40 years --- your $10000 in 1970 is worth $300 in 2021, where is your $9700? ---- your loss is someone else gain -
    the capitalistic system devoured your $9700 by false means.

    there's no problems with adopting paper currency as a medium of exchange, provided, it's true worth is assigned and not some fake number+ people adopt it out of free will, but the fiat system was imposed (brettonwood) with fake worth.
    subhanAllah that Hadith is so true and deep

    Leave a comment:


  • Simply_Logical
    replied
    Originally posted by imran1976
    Wa'alaikum As'salam,

    [Al-Baqarah: 275]
    “Those who take riba (usury or interest) will not stand but as stands the one whom the demon has driven crazy by his touch. That is because they have said: ‘Sale is but like riba.’, while Allah has permitted sale, and prohibited riba. So, whoever receives an advice from his Lord and desists (from indulging in riba), then what has passed is allowed for him, and his matter is up to Allah. As for the ones who revert back, those are the people of fire. There they will remain forever"
    ------------------------------

    their whole argument is based on that riba is a sales transactions, ALLAH swt' clearly says that sales transactions are permitted, but charging riba is prohibited --- by charging riba, they make easy money (exploiting people) and don't have to go through the pain of business activities.

    [An-Nisa:161]
    “And for their charging ribā (usury or interest) while they were forbidden from it, and for their devouring of the properties of the people by false means. We have prepared, for the disbelievers among them, a painful punishment.”
    ------------------------

    there is basis for Islamic finance, lots of work is being done -- we have to carefully study the terms and conditions offered by the Islamic banks.

    mortgage (conventional banking) is haram.--
    Yea but rewording words from interest to profit or rent just to try and find a loophole isn't right

    Leave a comment:


  • Simply_Logical
    replied
    Originally posted by Predatorian
    Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post
    assalamu alaykum wah rahmahtullahi wah barakatuhu

    hey people so i want to talk about riba, for a start why do many muslims not think anything of taking out riba like student loans, mortgages, car fiances etc?

    does anyone know why its such a sin that equates to waging war with Allah swt and his rasool sallahu alayhi wa salaam?

    also ive heard previously of some saying its justified to get a mortgage for a first house to wanting to get on the property ladder so the speak,
    do they have any legs to stand on in islam or is it clear cut wrong? as in riba is a major sin in islam are these people just following their whims and desires?

    i've also heard of these so called islamic finance banks where they simply replace the word interest with words like profit and say its halal,
    does this have any basis at all?

    i mean if we are being with ourselves we know we can fool man but how could we fool Allah swt?

    jazakAllah khayran
    I always say that when shaytan cant make you a nonmuslim he would deviate you so much you will probably leave islam without realising it.

    And a true believer will always want to know if smth is halal or haram before doing it.

    Buying a house with riba because you dont have a house is like saying i will eat pork because i dont have meat. If you have already a job you can rent a house even when you are retarded you can still rent it.Abu Huraira as far as i know didnt have a house and oh, why he didnt take a riba to buy that house? It was neccesity. Scholars today know it and prophet saws didnt know?

    Let these people rot in hell.They have a disease in their hearts and most of people who do this dont even pray.Allah will not change the condition of a people unless they change themselves.Let them lie to themselves and believe that lie but everybody will know what they used to work, in their last moments.May Allah protect us from riba and keep us in the right path.

    I cant talk about all islamic banks but the majority are the same as a normal bank, just beautified riba but still riba
    Yea I agree akhi

    Leave a comment:


  • ອາໄສຢູ່ ຣາຮາມ
    replied
    Originally posted by imran1976 View Post
    Imam Al-Ghazzali (505 A.H.) the renowned jurist and philosopher of the Islamic history has discussed the nature of money in an early period when the Western theories of money were non-existent. He says:

    "The creation of dirhams and dinars (money) is one of the blessings of Allah…. They are stones having no intrinsic usufruct or utility, but all human beings need them, because every body needs a large number of commodities for his eating, wearing etc, and often he does not have what he needs and does have what he needs not.. Therefore, the transactions of exchange are inevitable. But there must be a measure on the basis of which price can be determined, because the exchanged commodities are neither of the same type, nor of the same measure which can determine how much quantity of one commodity is a just price for another.

    Therefore, all these commodities need a mediator to judge their exact value…. Allah Almighty has, therefore, created dirhams and dinars (money) as judges and mediators between all commodities so that all objects of wealth are measured through them… and their being the measure of the value of all commodities is based on the fact that they are not an objective in themselves. Had they been an objective in themselves, one could have a specific purpose for keeping them which might have given them more importance according to his intention while the one who had no such purpose would have not given them such importance and thus the whole system would have been disturbed.

    That is why Allah has created them, so that they may be circulated between hands and act as a fair judge between different commodities and work as a medium to acquire other things…. So, the one who owns them is as he owns every thing, unlike the one who owns a cloth, because he owns only a cloth, therefore, if he needs food, the owner of the food may not be interested in exchanging his food for cloth, because he may need an animal for example.

    Therefore, there was needed a thing which in its appearance is nothing, but in its essence is everything. The thing which has no particular form may have different forms in relation to other things like a mirror which has no color, but it reflects every color. The same is the case of money. It is not an objective in itself, but it is an instrument to lead to all objectives…


    So, the one who is using money in a manner contrary to its basic purpose is, in fact, disregarding the blessings of Allah. Consequently, whoever hoards money is doing injustice to it and is defeating their actual purpose. He is like the one who detains a ruler in a prison…

    And whoever effects the transactions of interest on money is, in fact, discarding the blessing of Allah and is committing injustice, because money is created for some other things, not for itself. So, the one who has started trading in money itself has made it an objective contrary to the original wisdom behind its creation, because it is injustice to use money for a purpose other than what it was created for…. If it is allowed for him to trade in money itself, money will become his ultimate goal and will remain detained with him like hoarded money. And imprisoning a ruler or restricting a postman from conveying messages is nothing but injustice."


    The Text of the Historic Judgment on Interest Given by the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
    https://www.albalagh.net/Islamic_eco...udgement.shtml

    سبحان الله

    Thank you very much for this

    Leave a comment:


  • imran1976
    replied
    Imam Al-Ghazzali (505 A.H.) the renowned jurist and philosopher of the Islamic history has discussed the nature of money in an early period when the Western theories of money were non-existent. He says:

    "The creation of dirhams and dinars (money) is one of the blessings of Allah…. They are stones having no intrinsic usufruct or utility, but all human beings need them, because every body needs a large number of commodities for his eating, wearing etc, and often he does not have what he needs and does have what he needs not.. Therefore, the transactions of exchange are inevitable. But there must be a measure on the basis of which price can be determined, because the exchanged commodities are neither of the same type, nor of the same measure which can determine how much quantity of one commodity is a just price for another.

    Therefore, all these commodities need a mediator to judge their exact value…. Allah Almighty has, therefore, created dirhams and dinars (money) as judges and mediators between all commodities so that all objects of wealth are measured through them… and their being the measure of the value of all commodities is based on the fact that they are not an objective in themselves. Had they been an objective in themselves, one could have a specific purpose for keeping them which might have given them more importance according to his intention while the one who had no such purpose would have not given them such importance and thus the whole system would have been disturbed.

    That is why Allah has created them, so that they may be circulated between hands and act as a fair judge between different commodities and work as a medium to acquire other things…. So, the one who owns them is as he owns every thing, unlike the one who owns a cloth, because he owns only a cloth, therefore, if he needs food, the owner of the food may not be interested in exchanging his food for cloth, because he may need an animal for example.

    Therefore, there was needed a thing which in its appearance is nothing, but in its essence is everything. The thing which has no particular form may have different forms in relation to other things like a mirror which has no color, but it reflects every color. The same is the case of money. It is not an objective in itself, but it is an instrument to lead to all objectives…


    So, the one who is using money in a manner contrary to its basic purpose is, in fact, disregarding the blessings of Allah. Consequently, whoever hoards money is doing injustice to it and is defeating their actual purpose. He is like the one who detains a ruler in a prison…

    And whoever effects the transactions of interest on money is, in fact, discarding the blessing of Allah and is committing injustice, because money is created for some other things, not for itself. So, the one who has started trading in money itself has made it an objective contrary to the original wisdom behind its creation, because it is injustice to use money for a purpose other than what it was created for…. If it is allowed for him to trade in money itself, money will become his ultimate goal and will remain detained with him like hoarded money. And imprisoning a ruler or restricting a postman from conveying messages is nothing but injustice."


    The Text of the Historic Judgment on Interest Given by the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
    https://www.albalagh.net/Islamic_eco...udgement.shtml


    Last edited by imran1976; 15-06-21, 12:43 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • imran1976
    replied
    Originally posted by ອາໄສຢູ່ ຣາຮາມ View Post

    Modern economic system is largely based on interest

    can it exist without interest?

    The banks are based on fractional reserve banking

    Wherein banks lend "money" which they don't even own.
    modern economic system is designed on the basis of riba, you take this out, it will collapse.

    fractional reserve is another tool of the modern economic system to devour the wealth of people -- banks create money out of thin air, they create something which doesn't even exist .

    say with 10% rate, they create 10 times the original deposit and all this just exists in accounting books+ the amount of interest charged on this fake creation -- the system doesn't have that money and they again create fake money, the viscous cycle continues.

    Leave a comment:


  • ອາໄສຢູ່ ຣາຮາມ
    replied
    Originally posted by imran1976 View Post

    unless we have strong ideological govts in Muslim countries, there's no way to avoid riba. --- those who rule the international political scene, their economic system will be followed. --- and it makes no different if the common people aren't involved in riba, the system still is in place --

    like in Pakistan, the majority stay away from riba, even those who earn money from riba instrument, they do it secretly (yes there's a specific class which doesn't hide)+ in 90's our federal shariat court declared riba haram and ordered govt to take steps for riba free economy, nothing happened.
    Modern economic system is largely based on interest

    can it exist without interest?

    The banks are based on fractional reserve banking

    Wherein banks lend "money" which they don't even own.




    Leave a comment:


  • imran1976
    replied
    Originally posted by ອາໄສຢູ່ ຣາຮາມ View Post


    well said


    US dollar is global reserve currency

    When US government needs money/revenue

    It either
    1 raises taxes
    2 reduce spending
    3 borrow money
    4 print more dollars

    First 3 are unpopular/risky/difficult

    4 is easiest

    So how to print more dollars?

    US government doesn't print dollars.

    The federal reserve issues currency to the US government at a set interest rate

    So the American public has to pay for every dollar bill that is printed

    And most dollars in circulation are outside USA

    Now how to avoid riba?
    ​​​​​
    unless we have strong ideological govts in Muslim countries, there's no way to avoid riba. --- those who rule the international political scene, their economic system will be followed. --- and it makes no different if the common people aren't involved in riba, the system still is in place --

    like in Pakistan, the majority stay away from riba, even those who earn money from riba instrument, they do it secretly (yes there's a specific class which doesn't hide)+ in 90's our federal shariat court declared riba haram and ordered govt to take steps for riba free economy, nothing happened.

    Leave a comment:


  • ອາໄສຢູ່ ຣາຮາມ
    replied
    Originally posted by imran1976 View Post
    It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
    "There are seventy degrees of usury, the least of which is equivalent to a man having intercourse with his mother."

    حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ، عَنْ أَبِي مَعْشَرٍ، عَنْ سَعِيدٍ الْمَقْبُرِيِّ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ‏ "‏ الرِّبَا سَبْعُونَ حُوبًا أَيْسَرُهَا أَنْ يَنْكِحَ الرَّجُلُ أُمَّهُ ‏"
    ‏ ‏

    [Sunan ibn Majah:2274]
    الله أكبر
    الله مستعان

    Leave a comment:


  • ອາໄສຢູ່ ຣາຮາມ
    replied
    Originally posted by imran1976 View Post
    interest rate and inflation are inversely correlated -- increase in interest rate decreases inflation and vice versa.
    Yes

    The paper currency depreciates over time.

    As inflation increases

    And lower interests furthers depriciation.


    So the purchasing power of the currency decreases.

    Effectively a larger and larger amount of money has to be paid back to clear debts.

    And if not paid, then any assets or resources are taken over ( seized )

    Leave a comment:


  • ອາໄສຢູ່ ຣາຮາມ
    replied
    Originally posted by imran1976 View Post
    Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “A time will come upon people in which they will consume usury.” It was said, “All of the people?” The Prophet said, “Whoever does not consume it will be affected by its dust.”
    ...............................

    the time has come, we live in these times --- the contemporary economic system is designed in a way that you can't escape riba'. --- this system has different tools to keep it running and paper currency is one of them.

    [An-Nisa:161]
    and for their devouring of the properties of the people by false means .....


    gold rate $35 oz, 1970
    gold rate $1850 oz, 2021

    more than 97% devaluation in 40 years --- your $10000 in 1970 is worth $300 in 2021, where is your $9700? ---- your loss is someone else gain -
    the capitalistic system devoured your $9700 by false means.

    there's no problems with adopting paper currency as a medium of exchange, provided, it's true worth is assigned and not some fake number+ people adopt it out of free will, but the fiat system was imposed (brettonwood) with fake worth.

    well said


    US dollar is global reserve currency

    When US government needs money/revenue

    It either
    1 raises taxes
    2 reduce spending
    3 borrow money
    4 print more dollars

    First 3 are unpopular/risky/difficult

    4 is easiest

    So how to print more dollars?

    US government doesn't print dollars.

    The federal reserve issues currency to the US government at a set interest rate

    So the American public has to pay for every dollar bill that is printed

    And most dollars in circulation are outside USA

    Now how to avoid riba?


    ​​​​​

    Leave a comment:

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