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  • Free will

    As-salamu alaykum
    So we had to discuss a poem during lectures which contains many religious elements. One of those elements is predestination and in the same poem it is said that humans have free will. So the professor asked how can both work together(predestination and free will). I want to hear your thoughts and I wanted to offer my explanation through science. So according to science, time nor any other dimension which is part of our Universe didn't exist before The Big Bang, the explanation is that everything within our Universe is just a part of it. Since Allah created Universe, he is not bound by the same laws nor dimensions by which we are bound since He created everything. We don't fully understand concept of time since we are so physically limited and we only know that time is linear for us, we cannot physically go into the future nor past, we can only flow with the time. It is like we are stuck on a moving track. Allah created both the track and us and He sees the entire route. Only Allah knows our future and since we do not, we are both physically and intellectually too limited to understand anything basically, we have that freedom of choice and free will that Allah granted us. Tell me what is your stance on this.

  • #2
    That sounds like a beautiful answer but I am not informed islamically enough to offer an opinion on free will.
    Do you know about liminal space in philosophy?
    وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

    And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


    أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

    Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


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    • #3
      Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
      That sounds like a beautiful answer but I am not informed islamically enough to offer an opinion on free will.
      Do you know about liminal space in philosophy?
      No, first time hearing about it. I've just read a bit but it is still above me xd I have to do some deeper research to see what it is about. What is your understanding?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Anonymous1995 View Post

        No, first time hearing about it. I've just read a bit but it is still above me xd I have to do some deeper research to see what it is about. What is your understanding?
        I just understand its the space/threshold between a new moment or action/occurrence and the previous thing that happened...lol I made a thread about it, will tag you lol
        وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

        And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


        أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

        Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


        Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

        Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

        Comment


        • #5
          Walaykum salam,

          Your professors explanation makes sense.  We don't know what's ahead of us in the future but Allah (swt) does.  We have free will and are responsible for the choices we make.  Allah's (swt) foreknowledge of our choices just corroborates the fact that He knows everything- it does not suggest that He compels us to act against our free will.  hope that makes sense.
          The Lyme Disease pandemic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5u73ME4sVU

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          • #6
            Yes.
            https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/lo...-qur-an-courseI am just a simple nomad.

            Ephemeral reader

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            • #7
              Qadar is an article of faith. Allah, s.w.t., wrote from all eternity in the Lawh al-Mahfz, the Preserved Tablet, all that has happened and all which will come to pass. Therein lie all the events, to the most minute detail, of created existence. That which is in the Lawh al-Mahfz can never be changed. The Prophet, s.a.w., is quoted in Tirmidhi saying that “the pens have been lifted and the pages have dried."

              While everything that is written in the Lawh al-Mahfz will infallibly happen, our actions are said to be the product of our choices. In other words, Allah's, s.w.t., perfect knowledge foresaw our choices from all eternity and wrote then down so they would be decreed to come to pass. All active possibilities are created by Allah, s.w.t., and we act in accordance with our intentions to choose which action we should follow. Our intention precedes the created action. For instance, outside of time Allah, s.w.t., creates the possibility where one committs zina with a beautiful woman and another possibility where, moved by one's taqwa, one lowers his gaze, does not seek a relationship with said woman and moves on. What happens in concrete is a result of our choice and then its actualized in reality by Allah, s.w.t., to one's benefit or disgrace.

              There are four leves of belief in Qadar, to wit:

              Originally posted by Alukah.net
              1. The first level is to have belief in the knowledge of Allah; which encompasses everything. Not even the like of a weight of an atom in the heavens or the earth escapes His knowledge. And He, the Most High, knew about all His creation before He created them. He knew their provision, appointed terms, their speech and actions, all their doings, their secrets and that which they declare openly, and those among them from the People of Paradise and those from the People of the Hellfire.

              2. The second level is to have belief in the recording of that knowledge; and that He, the Most High, wrote all that will exist according to His prior knowledge. Included in this is belief in the Preserved Tablet (al-Lawh al- Mahfooz).

              3. The third level is to have belief in Allah’s executive will and His omnipotence. They necessitate each other with respect to what was and what will be. But they do not necessitate each other with respect to what will not be and what was not. So what Allah, the Most High, wishes exists by His omnipotence, and it could not be any other way, and what Allah does not wish does not exist, due to the absence of Allah’s wish for it and not due to Allah’s inability to make it exist, may He, Most Great and Glorious, be far removed from that.

              4. The fourth level is to have belief that Allah Most High is the Creator of everything and that there is not a single atom in the heavens nor in the earth, nor that which is between them, that Allah did not create. He is the creator of their movements and their lack of movements, may He be glorified. There is no creator besides Him and no Lord except Him. (a)

              The First Category: a) Knowledge. The belief that Allah is All-Knowing with respect to His creation and that they act in accordance with His prior knowledge which is infinite and eternal. b) Writing. Then Allah wrote in the preserved tablet the destiny of the creation.

              The Second Category: a) Will. It is the executed will of Allah and His all-encompassing ability. It is the belief that whatever Allah has willed will occur and whatever He has not willed will not occur. b) Creation. Allah has power over all things, existent and non-existent.” (See Notes on al-‘Aqidah al-Wasitiyah, pp. 170-3)

              And others explained the levels at length. See, for example, Ibn al-Qayyim’s work,

              In the Commentary on the Creed of at-Tahawi, Ibn Abil-‘Izz lists five levels of Qadr. He stated that “Qadr is the ordaining of things according to the knowledge Allah has of them and it involves the following principles:

              First, Allah knows things before they come into existence. This means that His knowledge is eternal. This is a refutation of those who deny that His knowledge is eternal.

              Second, fore-ordainment (taqdir) is to fix the measures of things, namely the properties and attributes which they will have. Allah has said,

              " وخَلقَ كلّ شيءٍ فقدّرهُ تقديرًا "

              “He created all things and ordained them in due measure.” (Surah al-Furqan, 25: 2).

              This means that creation involves two kinds of pre-measurement: ordaining things as such or fixing their measures, and doing so before they come into existence. Since Allah has fixed the measures of things in all their details, qualitative and quantitative, His knowledge of each and every individual thing is perfect. Hence, those who think that Allah knows only the universals and not the particulars are wrong. Qadr involves eternal knowledge as it involves the knowledge of each and every individual thing.

              Third, qadr means that Allah reveals detailed information about things before their creation. Therefore, it is not ruled out that some of His servants may know about various things before they are brought into existence (if Allah chooses to tell them such). This further enforces the truth that their Creator must be even more knowledgeable about them. If He has informed His servants about them, He cannot Himself lack that knowledge.

              Fourth, qadr means that Allah is free to decide what to do, or to create what He wills, and nothing is incumbent or obligatory upon him.

              Fifth and finally, it means that the things that He ordains are contingent, that they come into being after they were not there. He first determines their measures and then creates them.”

              (Commentary on the Creed of At-Tahawi, pp. 219-220)

              (a)The division of Qadar into four levels is mentioned in most books on ‘Aqeedah produced in Saudi Arabia today. They follow Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah’s approach found in Shifaa al-‘Aleel fee Masaa’il al-Qadaa wal-Qadar (See pp. 29-65). However, his teacher, Ibn Taymiyyah, and others summarized the four levels in two. For example, in his work, Al-‘Aqeedah al-Waastiyyah, Ibn Taymiyyah states: “Belief in Qadr has two categories and each category has two subcategories.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by neelu View Post
                Walaykum salam,

                Your professors explanation makes sense. We don't know what's ahead of us in the future but Allah (swt) does. We have free will and are responsible for the choices we make. Allah's (swt) foreknowledge of our choices just corroborates the fact that He knows everything- it does not suggest that He compels us to act against our free will. hope that makes sense.
                Professor didn't have an explanation, she is an atheist and it was more of that she thought that she found a gap in islam. Since she is an atheist I offered her an explanation from a scientific point of view so that she sees that predestination and free will together make sense from every point of view. Atheists usually think that science and islam are opposed but that is not the case. The thing is that science is not yet at that level to be able to examine things at larger scale, it again comes down to our limitations.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Anonymous1995 View Post

                  Professor didn't have an explanation, she is an atheist and it was more of that she thought that she found a gap in islam. Since she is an atheist I offered her an explanation from a scientific point of view so that she sees that predestination and free will together make sense from every point of view. Atheists usually think that science and islam are opposed but that is not the case. The thing is that science is not yet at that level to be able to examine things at larger scale, it again comes down to our limitations.
                  Wow. Good answer.

                  Note: When a professor gives you a very old and difficult question, she is not going to answer in the same lecture. She wants you to figure it out on your own for a day or two. That's what professors are supposed to do to students.

                  Atheists debate among themselves about freewill vs fate. There's Einstein's 'god does not play dice with the universe'. But god does play dice. But he knows what numbers they will land on before they stop rolling. He knows what we cannot. No matter how large the scale or small the quanta we can examine, we still won't know what will happen next.

                  Whether predestination is true or not, it doesn't matter.

                  ~Bub
                  From the Many, One

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                  • #10
                    oh sorry my mistake.  The first time I read your post, I thought it was your professors explanation on how there can be free will and predestination but now I've read it a second time, I realise that's actually your explanation.  Your explanation makes sense.  The thing about athiests in the west is that they know there is a contradiction between science and Christian beliefs so they say that religion is incompatible with science, when actually Islam is not incompatible/oppositional to science and that's why so many of our classical Islamic scholars were also scientists.  Predestination only confirms the fact that Allah (swt) knows everything including He knows our future before it happens. 

                    Free will doesn't contradict that.  There used to be a time years ago when I asked this question too and wondered if Allah (swt) was compelling our actions cos He already knows and decided the outcome, but I think it's when I studied one of the chapters of Nidham al Islam by Sh Taqi (second chapter I think) that I finally understood that we actually do have free will and predestination doesn't contradict it.  In fact I'm not proud of admitting this, but before I understood this topic, I used to think it meant we didn't have free will and it seems unfair we'd be punished for our choices and actions when Allah already knows our choices and actions and their outcomes (I presumed foreknowledge meant He chose our choices and actions for us and took some time to learn better)- astaghfirullah I'm glad I don't think that way now.  

                    Originally posted by Anonymous1995 View Post

                    Professor didn't have an explanation, she is an atheist and it was more of that she thought that she found a gap in islam. Since she is an atheist I offered her an explanation from a scientific point of view so that she sees that predestination and free will together make sense from every point of view. Atheists usually think that science and islam are opposed but that is not the case. The thing is that science is not yet at that level to be able to examine things at larger scale, it again comes down to our limitations.
                     
                    The Lyme Disease pandemic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5u73ME4sVU

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