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  • #16
    Originally posted by eesa the kiwi View Post

    You don't have to believe that the Quran came from Allah to find its wisdom effective

    Show me one book of kalam that has a stronger argument and logic when talking to atheists than where Allah says

    أَمْ خُلِقُوا مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ الْخَالِقُونَ

    أَمْ خَلَقُوا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بَل لَّا يُوقِنُونَ

    ďWere they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators? Or did they create the Heavens and the earth? Nay, but they have no firm beliefĒ (verses 35-36)

    Kalam is garbage compared to the arguments in the Quran and if you think otherwise you're delusional
    Well said brother

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Stoic Believer View Post

      Who created Allah? Try refuting that without using any kalaam, logic, etc. Can't use Quran or Hadith because an atheist doesn't believe in that.¬*

      And it doesn't matter if they're not sincere. What matters is that one can refute them so that they can't spread their doubts to ignorant Muslims.
      Instead teach tawheed to the muslims

      only an idiot would say who created God
      Atheists are the most retarded people in the world
      as Allah says in surah furqan they took their desires as illah

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by budi.sudaryo View Post

        As simple as what's the rational proof that God exists? How would you answer it without logic and kalam? I'm interested to know. Mind you that the person asking doesn't believe in God, let alone the Qur'an and the prophets peace be upon them.
        Logic is within quran and sunnah
        kalaam is philosophy not just logic

        if he doesnt believe in God nor does he want to believe in God or look for the truth i wont speak to him
        hes just trying to sow seeds of doubt and argue
        like some of those guys in speakers corner
        most arent sincere

        Allah SWT said:

        اللَّهُ الَّذِى خَلَقَ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَأَنْزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَآءِ مَآءً فَأَخْرَجَ بِهِۦ مِنَ الثَّمَرٰتِ رِزْقًا لَّكُمْ  ۖ وَسَخَّرَ لَكُمُ الْفُلْكَ لِتَجْرِىَ فِى الْبَحْرِ بِأَمْرِهِۦ  ۖ وَسَخَّرَ لَكُمُ الْأَنْهٰرَ
        "It is Allah who created the heavens and the earth and sent down rain from the sky and produced thereby some fruits as provision for you and subjected for you the ships to sail through the sea by His command and subjected for you the rivers."
        (QS. Ibrahim 14: Verse 32)

        * Via Qur'an English http://quran-en.com

        they believe a man created a car a train a plane
        but they dont believe the earth had a creator
        the most retarded people in the world

        Comment


        • #19
          Stoic Believer can you give me an example of a theory or philosopher that can only be refuted by kalam?
          وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

          And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


          أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

          Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


          Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

          Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

          Comment


          • #20
            I think there is not a lot of a reason to refute philosophers on the existence of God.

            I don't have a philosophy background in my studies but I find atheist philosophy kind of meandering. I have some opinions on this but can't find the words to explain it right now tbh

            I think some philosophy, like moral philosophy (utilitarianism) quite interesting since I started doing a project on it for my internship.
            وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

            And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


            أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

            Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


            Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

            Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

              Instead teach tawheed to the muslims

              only an idiot would say who created God
              Atheists are the most retarded people in the world
              as Allah says in surah furqan they took their desires as illah
              Of course it's idiotic. That's not the point son.
              You don't think there are Muslims with weak imaan who fall prey to these doubts? You have to address them. Sometimes kalaam can be useful in doing this. But one definitely shouldn't overindulge in it

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
                Stoic Believer can you give me an example of a theory or philosopher that can only be refuted by kalam?
                I can't. 

                All I said was there were certain questions that kalaam would be needed to refute. This was the whole reason behind the inception of ilm al kalaam. 

                I probably sound like a goofy Sufi right now 

                Comment


                • #23
                  Op, if you haven't already you might want to check out 'The Divine Reality: God, Islam and the Mirage of Atheism' by Hamza Tzortzis

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Stoic Believer View Post
                    I probably sound like a goofy Sufi right now¬*
                    No you don't.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Poster View Post
                      Op, if you haven't already you might want to check out 'The Divine Reality: God, Islam and the Mirage of Atheism' by Hamza Tzortzis
                      I have read it. Abu julaybeeb needs to read it. It's clear that the author is well versed in kalam and philosophy. The result is a great book with convincing counter arguments to atheism
                      I'm on a strict time management regiment and have to limit my time online. Therefore I have to reply selectively. Please don't be offended if I ignore your questions. :jkk:

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by eesa the kiwi View Post

                        No offense bro but going by some of the posts you've posted over the years I'd hardly consider you to have a strong grounding in aqeedah...
                        Was just about to post this.

                        There may be some benefit but it should only be pursued by someone who is knowledgeable and competent, which rules you out.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by budi.sudaryo View Post

                          I have read it. Abu julaybeeb needs to read it. It's clear that the author is well versed in kalam and philosophy. The result is a great book with convincing counter arguments to atheism
                          When i said iera that included hamza tsorsis

                          il read it in sha Allah

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by budi.sudaryo View Post

                            I have read it. Abu julaybeeb needs to read it. It's clear that the author is well versed in kalam and philosophy. The result is a great book with convincing counter arguments to atheism
                            You might also want to look into a book released by Mohammed Hijab called the "kalam cosmological argument".

                            Comment

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