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  • #76
    .
    Last edited by AdabWaAkhlaq; Yesterday, 05:13 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by AdabWaAkhlaq View Post
      وَلَقَدْ أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ وَإِلَى الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ لَئِنْ أَشْرَكْتَ لَيَحْبَطَنَّ عَمَلُكَ وَلَتَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ

      And it was already revealed to you, and to those before you, that if you should associate [anything] with Allah, your work would surely become worthless, and you would surely be among the losers. -Al-Zumar:65

      Btw, Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala is addressing the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam himself as seen in the previous ayah:

      قُلْ أَفَغَيْرَ اللَّهِ تَأْمُرُونِّي أَعْبُدُ أَيُّهَا الْجَاهِلُونَ

      Say, [O Muhammad], "Is it other than Allah that you order me to worship, O Ignorant ones?"

      This is Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, and all the anbiya are protected from Shirk and Kufr. So who is anyone else you give immunity to?
      What fo you mean?
      ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

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      • #78
        They're so stupid. How are you going to make takfir on our Nabi's?? Peace and blessings of Allah be upon them.

        Where does that leave them, honestly they think they can go around calling themselves Muslim but slandering Prophets? Mind boggling, you hear anything these days.
        وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

        And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


        أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

        Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


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        • #79
          .
          Last edited by AdabWaAkhlaq; Yesterday, 05:13 PM.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by AdabWaAkhlaq View Post
            I'm speaking about this new breed of people, the ones who may be called "Adhirin" or excusers. What right do they think they have to call someone who is associating partners with Allah a Muslim? Do they think they are more merciful than Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala, or do they think by calling someone who is commiting Shirk a Muslim will make him a Muslim? So,

            لَئِنْ أَشْرَكْتَ لَيَحْبَطَنَّ عَمَلُكَ وَلَتَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ

            ...that if you should associate [anything] with Allah, your work would surely become worthless, and you would surely be among the losers.

            And this is addressing Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam who is protected from Shirk, so who is anybody else these excusers give immunity to.

            Also, a side note, the "sujud" that the Angels did to Adam alayhisalam and that Mu'adh ibn Jabal (radhiyallahu anhu) did to Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, and that Yusuf alayhisalam's brothers did to him is a sujud in the linguistic sense (what we would consider a bow today). See how Shaytan misleads both the Murji-ah and the Ghulat. The former, who make excuses for prostrating to graves, and the latter who end up takfiring Sahaba (radhiallahu anhum) because of their twisted understanding of the linguistic word.

            Do you think Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala would allow prostration to anyone other than him at any time? This is why bowing (not prostration as that has always been Shirk) has been made Haram for us as it leads to Shirk like it led previous nations to it. It's similar to the way making statues and pictures has been made Haram for us because it led previous nations astray (when they began revering the statues, making shrines, and eventually worshiping).

            Every nation committed Shirk slowly and unknowingly; they didn't wake up one day and decide to start prostrating to pieces of wood.
            Was imam al thahabi a mushrik for excusing those who do sujood to others with the intention of respect?

            Somewhat similar to what the family of Yusuf AS did with him.
            ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

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            • #81
              .
              Last edited by AdabWaAkhlaq; Yesterday, 05:13 PM.

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              • ummsayfullah
                ummsayfullah commented
                Editing a comment
                Hazimiyyah say takfir is from asl ad-deen whereby no udhr can be granted..yes there is no udhr in matters of asl ad deen but takfir however is not from asl ad deen w Allahu 3alam this is what I gathered. Thats Why they make chain takfir and consider everyone a kafir until you see their tawheed
                Last edited by ummsayfullah; 17-09-18, 07:45 PM.

            • #82
              Originally posted by AdabWaAkhlaq View Post
              Also, a side note, the "sujud" that the Angels did to Adam alayhisalam and that Mu'adh ibn Jabal (radhiyallahu anhu) did to Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, and that Yusuf alayhisalam's brothers did to him is a sujud in the linguistic sense (what we would consider a bow today). See how Shaytan misleads both the Murji-ah and the Ghulat. The former, who make excuses for prostrating to graves, and the latter who end up takfiring Sahaba (radhiyallahu anhum) because of their twisted understanding of the linguistic word.
              That is interesting.

              But if we go by what al-Qurtubi says here, the majority hold it was the prostrating of placing your forehead on the ground like in prayer (done out of respect). Only a group understood it in the linguistic sense you have alluded to.
              Watch those eyes

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              • #83
                Originally posted by ummsayfullah View Post
                there are certain individuals within this majmou3ah who make takfir on anbiyaa like Yousuf and Mousa.

                even Bukhaari.
                they say "we make takfir to be on the safe side."
                how then if some have left the pale of islam
                Hazimis make takfir on the mutawaqiff
                If the hujjah is established on him and he still rejects they make takfir on him
                where as the other side say the mutawaqiff is a murji and or mubtadi


                the mutawaqifd is the one who exscuses the aathir (aathir being the one who exscused the person who committed the act of kufr)

                so like this the chain can keep going where as the other side will say hes murji or mubtadi and stop there


                in the time of the mutazaliah one mutazili sect did chain takfir the other said the mutawaqiff is mubtadi

                We dont say there is uther bit jahl in shirk
                (Exscuse of ignorance)
                Last edited by Abu julaybeeb; 17-09-18, 09:00 PM.

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                • #84
                  What is the position of takfīr in the Dīn?

                  The answer is that takfīr is a hukm shar’ī (a legislative ruling); it does not enter into the ‘aql (intellect) nor does it fall under the issue and meaning of asl ad-Dīn. Therefore takfīr al-mushrīkīn is from the wājibat (obligations) of the Dīn, and not from asl ad-Dīn (foundations of the Dīn). Some of the statements affirming this by the people of knowledge is related below:

                  Shaykh al-Islām Ibn Taymiyyah ​(رحمه الله) said, “​Takfīr is a hukm shar’ī which renders someone’s wealth permissible to take, his blood permissible to shed, and sentencing one with abiding in the Fire. Thus it is taken how the rest of the​ shar‘ī rulings are taken.” [1]

                  And he (رحمه الله) said, “Indeed, ​kufr and ​fisq are ​shar‘ī rulings; they are not like those matters which are established by the​ ‘aql. The kāfir is whoever Allāh and His Messenger said is a ​kāfir, and the ​fāsiq is whoever Allāh and His messenger said is a ​fāsiq, just as the believer and Muslim is whoever Allāh and His messenger said is a believer and Muslim…” Until he said, “So this issue, all of it, is established by the Shar’. [2]

                  And he ​(رحمه الله) said, “​Īmān and ​kufr are from those rulings which are established by the Message, and it is by Shar‘ī evidences that distinguish between the believer and the kāfir, not the intellectual proofs.” [3]

                  Also, Ibn Qayyim ​(رحمه الله) said, [Placing] ​kufr is the right of Allāh then ​the Rasūl. Established by the texts not by the saying of ​fulan (so-and-so), Whoever the Lord of creation and ​‘abduhu (His slave) described as a ​kāfir, then he is a possessor of kufran.” [4]

                  In relation to asl ad-Dīn, the difference is that, what is from asl ad-Dīn, there is no excuse of ignorance and it is not conditioned to establish the hujjah on whoever leaves it or leaves part of it. As for takfīr, due to it being a hukm shar’ī, there is an excuse of ignorance and tawil (interpretation) in respect to it. Also, takfīr is not upon one level, rather, there are different levels. For example, there is what is known in the Dīn by necessity like making takfīr on whoever Allāh made takfīr of in the Qur’ān such as Iblīs, Fir’awn, and those who follow another way other than Islām, like the Jews, Christians, idol worshippers. Whatever is below that is what’s differed upon.

                  From among the many proofs of this differentiation that​ takfīr is from the ​wājibat of the ​Dīn and a ​hukm shar‘ī, and not from ​asl ad-Dīn which no one is excused in, is what is narrated from the ​Sahābah (رضي الله عنهم) in their differing amongst each other in regards to ​takfīr of some murtaddīn. When Allāh clarified the ​kufr of those people (i.e. the ​murtaddīn), He did not order those who refrained from ​takfīr to renew their ​Islām.

                  Indeed, Allāh said,

                  فَمَا لَكُمْ فِي الْمُنَافِقِينَ فِئَتَيْنِ وَاللَّهُ أَرْكَسَهُم بِمَا كَسَبُوا ۚ أَتُرِيدُونَ أَن تَهْدُوا مَنْ أَضَلَّ اللَّهُ ۖ وَمَن يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُ سَبِيلًا

                  “What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray- never will you find for him a way [of guidance].”

                  And,

                  وَدُّوا لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُوا فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَاءً ۖ فَلَا تَتَّخِذُوا مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءَ حَتَّىٰ يُهَاجِرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۚ

                  “They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah.” [5]

                  In relation to the reason for its revelation, what is authentic and agreed upon is that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) went out to [the Battle] of Uhud and some people then who were originally with him, left and turned back. The ​Sahābah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) were split on two opinions concerning them; some said, “We should kill them,” while others said, “Do not.”

                  Continued

                  And it has been authentically reported from Mujāhid (رحمه الله) that he said, “Some people came out from Makkah until they reached Madīnah. They claimed to be ​muhajirūn and then committed ​riddah after that. They asked the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) for permission to return to Makkah and to take their goods in order to trade. The believers differed regarding them; some said, “They are​ munafiqun,” and others said, “They are believers.” Then Allāh showed their nifāq and ordered to fight them. [6]

                  Imām at-Tabarī (رحمه الله) said in his explanation of the Āyah of His saying: “What is [the matter] with you that you are two groups concerning hypocrites while Allāh has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned?” He said, It means: Allāh returned them to the rulings of the people of​ shirk, in that their blood is permissible to be shed and their offspring enslaved. [7]

                  Imām at-Tabarī (رحمه الله) gave precedence to the opinion that the reason for the revelation of this ​Āyah was referring to people who apostatised from Islām. He said, after mentioning the different sayings of the ​Salaf in regards to the reason for its revelation, “And the first of these opinions is correct. The opinion which stated this ​Āyah was revealed in regards to the differing of the companions of the Messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وسلم) concerning people who apostatised after Islām from the people of Makkah.” [8]

                  In fact, some of the leading scholars of the ​Salaf refrained, in the beginning of the matter, from ​takfīr of those who said the Qur’ān is created. And from them are some who refrained from declaring the kufr of the Jahmīyyah, despite its severity. They were not ​kuffār due to that, and when the evidence indicating their ​kufr became clear to them, they did not refrain [from ​takfīr] of them, nor did they renew their Islām due to their prior refrainment.

                  An example from Ibn ‘Ammar al-Mawsīlī (رحمه الله) who said, Ibnul-Madīnī said to me: “What prevents you from making ​takfīr of them (i.e., the Jahmīyyah)?!” And I had initially refrained from making ​takfīr until Ibnul-Madīnī said to me what he said; so when he gave in during the ​Mihnah, I wrote to him reminding him of Allāh and reminding him of what he told me in making ​takfīr of them. [9]

                  Thus from the numerous proofs present in the Dīn regarding this matter, takfīr is from the wājibat of the Dīn; a hukm shar’ī. It has no source except from the shar’ī evidences and the ‘aql has no place in it. This is what is followed and affirmed by the people of knowledge.
                  ____________

                  [1] Refer to “Bughyah al-Murtād” (page 345).

                  [2] Refer to “Minhāj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyāh” (5/92).

                  [3] Refer to “Majmū’ al-Fatāwā” (3/328).

                  [4] Refer to “Al-Kafiyyah ash-Shafiyyah” (page 858).

                  [5] Sūrah An-Nisā’ (88-89).

                  [6] Narrated by at-Tabarī with an authentic chain.

                  [7] Refer to “Tafsīr at-Tabarī” (8/7).

                  [8] Ibid, (8/13).

                  [9] Narrated by al-Khatīb al-Baghdādī in “Tarikh Baghdād” with an authentic chain.

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                  • #85
                    Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
                    What is the position of takfīr in the Dīn?

                    ...
                    You forgot to post the link.

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                    • Abu julaybeeb
                      Abu julaybeeb commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I dont have the link
                      Accept it or dont

                  • #86
                    Originally posted by AdabWaAkhlaq View Post

                    This is a non nonsensical shubha people have regarding Yusuf alayhisalam's brothers and Mu'adh ibn Jabal radhiyallahu anhu and numerous others; it's a very strange claim that goes to show how diseased people's hearts have become. They didn't "prostrate" the way we do in Salah, they prostrated the prostration of respect. They are two completely different things.

                    I think you missed the part where I explained that.

                    If you ask even a small child to prostrate to someone in the way we prostrate in Salah to Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala, he would know it's a form of worship, not respect.
                    Care to bring what the salaf said on the issue, or any scholars after them?

                    So according to you
                    How can a persom change his intention in sujood between respect and worship
                    ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

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                    • #87
                      Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
                      What is the position of takfīr in the Dīn?...
                      How can you not have the link... you just posted it.

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                      • Abu julaybeeb
                        Abu julaybeeb commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Its forwarded to me
                        Its not from a site
                        However if you want you can look at the actual books where the daleel and sharh is
                        The references are at the bottom of the post

                    • #88
                      Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
                      Its forwarded to me
                      Its not from a site
                      However if you want you can look at the actual books where the daleel and sharh is
                      The references are at the bottom of the post
                      Yeah, look at the books like you have done... right.

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                      • #89
                        The state of one in a 'mubahala' who knows he's in the wrong but goes ahead anyway to save face in front of the people.

                        :randomthought:

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                        • #90
                          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                          The state of one in a 'mubahala' who knows he's in the wrong but goes ahead anyway to save face in front of the people.

                          :randomthought:
                          Well mubahala so if hes wrong he could be cursed by Allah

                          also riya so minor shirk

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