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Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

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  • Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

    Asalamu alaykum

    Very interesting discussion which I feel is worth a watch. Discussion between Siraj Wahhaj, Yusha Evans, and Haitham al Haddad.


  • #2
    Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

    Originally posted by Poster View Post
    Asalamu alaykum

    Very interesting discussion which I feel is worth a watch. Discussion between Siraj Wahhaj, Yusha Evans, and Haitham al Haddad.

    Define integration.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

      You draw the line where you have to compromise your Deen,

      Unfortunately moderates/liberals and co have already done that,

      نعوذ بالله من ذلك
      http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

      "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

      – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

        Originally posted by So-confused View Post
        Define integration.
        I would say it is a minority community contributing to the majority without losing its identity.

        Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
        You draw the line where you have to compromise your Deen,

        Unfortunately moderates/liberals and co have already done that,

        نعوذ بالله من ذلك
        This is true bro but the question then is at what point is your Deen compromised when integrating?

        For example, we all agree that as Muslims we should help the poor, homeless etc and that's contributing to society as a whole.

        What about however being police officers for example, or participating in political elections?

        Is that compromising or not?

        Should we even be trying to integrate?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

          Originally posted by Poster View Post
          I would say it is a minority community contributing to the majority without losing its identity.
          The Jews are the most successful at that, and why does integration depend on your identity? EU settlers from Ireland, Britain, France, Germany all went to America and have lost their identity and are simply considered American but are still "integrated", right?

          I think that the weak will always be taken over by the strong, so eventually these Muslims a few generations down their line will probably lose their faith and then assimilate into whatever kuffar community. It's already happening on a wide scale.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

            Originally posted by So-confused View Post
            The Jews are the most successful at that, and why does integration depend on your identity? EU settlers from Ireland, Britain, France, Germany all went to America and have lost their identity and are simply considered American but are still "integrated", right?
            Losing your identity I believe would be assimilation whereas integration is as I explained. The Europeans who moved to America assimilated as opposed to integrated and it does seem (may Allah forgive me) that the Muslims in America are also more prone to assimilation than those in Europe.

            You're right the Jews are very successful at that and that's because whilst they do contribute to the society they don't really interact much with the wider community. What I mean by that is that they live in their own communities with their own stores, schools, and everything else they need.

            What would you say is the solution then? The obvious answer is hijrah but realistically Muslims aren't going to be leaving the West unless they're persecuted so the question of how far Muslims should integrate is always an interesting one.

            Listen to the discussion if you haven't already Insha'Allah

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

              Originally posted by Poster View Post
              I would say it is a minority community contributing to the majority without losing its identity.



              This is true bro but the question then is at what point is your Deen compromised when integrating?

              For example, we all agree that as Muslims we should help the poor, homeless etc and that's contributing to society as a whole.

              What about however being police officers for example, or participating in political elections?

              Is that compromising or not?

              Should we even be trying to integrate?
              Socialising with Kuffar, giving up your Salaah, free mixing, idle chit chat with opposite gender, shaving your beard, because the Kuffar don't like it, etc

              We don't integrate with their filth,
              http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

              "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

              – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

                As a police officer, you would have to enforce Kufr laws, so it is not a job that befits a Muslim,

                As for helping people in need, we can do that through reliable charities,
                http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

                  :salams:

                  And thinking twice before saying "proud to be a american/british/etc. muslim".

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

                    Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
                    Socialising with Kuffar, giving up your Salaah, free mixing, idle chit chat with opposite gender, shaving your beard, because the Kuffar don't like it, etc

                    We don't integrate with their filth,
                    Valid points.


                    Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
                    As a police officer, you would have to enforce Kufr laws, so it is not a job that befits a Muslim,

                    As for helping people in need, we can do that through reliable charities,
                    Would the same ruling apply for a lawyer? If so, should Muslims not become laywers? I'm not arguing Muslims should become police officers btw, just posing a question.

                    True.

                    Originally posted by arif123f View Post
                    :salams:

                    And thinking twice before saying "proud to be a american/british/etc. muslim".
                    :wswrwb:

                    Valid point.

                    Some people however may say that you shouldn't call yourself a American Muslim for example and you should just call yourself a Muslim.

                    What do you think about that?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

                      Originally posted by Poster View Post
                      Some people however may say that you shouldn't call yourself a American Muslim for example and you should just call yourself a Muslim.

                      What do you think about that?
                      If your born and bred in America, and have an American passport then what else would you call yourself?

                      The problem is when "scholars" say that they are patriotic Americans, and that they love their nation and so on. This is part of the assimilation spread by liberals leading to "Muslim" American soldiers.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

                        Originally posted by Poster View Post
                        Valid points.




                        Would the same ruling apply for a lawyer? If so, should Muslims not become laywers? I'm not arguing Muslims should become police officers btw, just posing a question.

                        True.



                        :wswrwb:

                        Valid point.

                        Some people however may say that you shouldn't call yourself a American Muslim for example and you should just call yourself a Muslim.

                        What do you think about that?
                        Lawyer - depends. If a person's job is defending the rights of others, then I've read it is permissible because Islam does not prohibiti this. As for other types of lawyers eg criminal law etc don't know but my instinct says no...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

                          Originally posted by So-confused View Post
                          If your born and bred in America, and have an American passport then what else would you call yourself?

                          The problem is when "scholars" say that they are patriotic Americans, and that they love their nation and so on. This is part of the assimilation spread by liberals leading to "Muslim" American soldiers.
                          There are two extremes here, with one extreme saying we should only call ourselves Muslim with no attachment to nationality and the other saying we're patriotic Americans. The middle path as I see it is that there is no harm calling yourself a British Muslim as it accurately portrays where you're from.

                          If you live in the UK, do you think the Muslim community there are somewhat in the middle?


                          The issue however is the meaning behind these labels

                          Originally posted by Morose View Post
                          Lawyer - depends. If a person's job is defending the rights of others, then I've read it is permissible because Islam does not prohibiti this. As for other types of lawyers eg criminal law etc don't know but my instinct says no...
                          This should somewhat answer the question :

                          https://islamqa.info/en/9496

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

                            Originally posted by Poster View Post
                            There are two extremes here, with one extreme saying we should only call ourselves Muslim with no attachment to nationality and the other saying we're patriotic Americans. The middle path as I see it is that there is no harm calling yourself a British Muslim as it accurately portrays where you're from.

                            If you live in the UK, do you think the Muslim community there are somewhat in the middle?


                            The issue however is the meaning behind these labels



                            This should somewhat answer the question :

                            https://islamqa.info/en/9496
                            Oh جزاك اللهُ خيراً‎ for the link
                            I was referring to lawyers who "defend rights" in the sense of for example, you damage my property, I sue you kind of thing. I read on IslamQA also that this type of work is fine. https://islamqa.info/en/75613

                            But yes defending criminals is no doubt wrong.

                            Law is a nasty job though. They work crazy hours and the stress factor is too much.

                            Also جزاك اللهُ خيراً‎ for the video I will watch it in sha Allah when I'm on computer.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Integration in the West - where do we draw the line?

                              Originally posted by Poster View Post
                              There are two extremes here, with one extreme saying we should only call ourselves Muslim with no attachment to nationality and the other saying we're patriotic Americans. The middle path as I see it is that there is no harm calling yourself a British Muslim as it accurately portrays where you're from.

                              If you live in the UK, do you think the Muslim community there are somewhat in the middle?


                              The issue however is the meaning behind these labels
                              I agree, it is simply a method of identification.

                              The thing is about "Muslim communities" is that we look at only the religious people and make our judgement just based on that. How many Muslims between age 18-25 even pray their salah do you think? 3 %? If immigration was completely halted, then the Muslim population will reduce by at least 40 % in 4-5 generations. Muslims will simply become like Christians. This is all due to integration, and if Muslims had their own communities and were not as integrated as much then these problems wouldn't occur as much. But they usually live in melting points.

                              Comment

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