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Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

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  • Al-Farooq
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Originally posted by Mace View Post
    I don't know. It's possible the error could have been worse 1400 years ago. How would we know? We would need precise coordinates for each of the 3 points taken 1400+ years ago. Which is obviously impossible.

    But again to put this in perspective, if you're praying in the masjid, you're praying in pretty much the right direction. It's a just a small error. If the mountain had been further away, only then would be error be more significant.

    But then if the mountain had been further away, they probably wouldn't have used it as a landmark.

    I'm sure you can find greater errors in direction in other masjids. For that matter, some people I know here on the east coast of the US actually stubbornly pray to the SE (because that's how it looks on a typical projected map), which of course is totally wrong. They are not facing anywhere near the kabaa if they do that. But most people get it right and pray to a NE bearing from here.
    Thank you for the explanation, Mace.

    May Allah ta'ala guide you back to the His protection, to the noor and haq of al-Islam. Ameen.

    Well, in the first place, what does it matter? Muhammad never said the line had to be perfect. That's an invention of the film maker.

    But as to tectonic shift, probably not. Mecca, Mount Deyn and San'a all rest on the same Arabian Plate and so would have all experienced the same teconic movement, meaning they would not have moved in relationship to each other.
    OK, thanks.

    I really know very little of such matters, I am not scientifically minded in the slightest, so I appreciate the explanation.

    Leave a comment:


  • THHuxley
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    Ah, so you are saying that If one was to draw a straight line from Sana'a to Makkah, it would not pass through the mountain as illustrated?
    Yes. If one were to draw a straight line from the Grande Mosque in Sana'a to the Kaba'a in Mecca, it would not pass through the mountain "as illustrated." It would be close. But hardly the "miracle" this video pretends.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu 'Abdullaah
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Ah, so you are saying that If one was to draw a straight line from Sana'a to Makkah, it would not pass through the mountain as illustrated?

    Leave a comment:


  • THHuxley
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    Also, I don't understand what you said earlier about flight plans. Surely one could just fly from point A to point B in a straight line?
    Exactly. But the line drawn by Zindani would not have been that line.

    The "straight line" between Sana'a and Mecca is not the line that Zaindani drew passing through the mountain peak.

    Leave a comment:


  • THHuxley
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Originally posted by Abu Rago View Post
    Just thought I'd let you know the Sheikh who done this research; Sheikh Zindani was the founder and former secretary-general of the Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah, based in Saudi Arabia and he is a pretty clever bloke.
    Very clever and yet still often wrong.

    He was, for example, the actual author of the embryology text additions that Muslims falsely try to give Keith Moore credit for. And he got almost all of those wrong, too.

    This video is only one of his many scientific errors, and not by far his worst.

    Leave a comment:


  • THHuxley
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Originally posted by Al-Farooq View Post
    Let's assume your calculations are correct.

    Is it possible that the shift in tectonic plates (or another geographical/ geological development) during the period of time from the life of Muhammed salAllahu alayhe wasallam to the present day, may account for the slight inaccuracy (assuming your calculations are correct) in what is witnessed today?
    Well, in the first place, what does it matter? Muhammad never said the line had to be perfect. That's an invention of the film maker.

    But as to tectonic shift, probably not. Mecca, Mount Deyn and San'a all rest on the same Arabian Plate and so would have all experienced the same teconic movement, meaning they would not have moved in relationship to each other.

    Leave a comment:


  • THHuxley
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Originally posted by Fais View Post
    No .. your stupid.
    Actually, I'm not. But if that is the best you can do and it makes you feel better, go for it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mace
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Originally posted by Abu Rago View Post
    Just thought I'd let you know the Sheikh who done this research; Sheikh Zindani was the founder and former secretary-general of the Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah, based in Saudi Arabia and he is a pretty clever bloke.

    And who are you? If you want to discredit the Sheikhs research at least bring real proof.

    Thanks.
    I'm nobody really. Just someone interested in these sorts of things. And as a private pilot and someone with a background in math, this was interesting.

    I'd be interested in reading about this sheikh's other work or the findings of that commission. What is his academic background?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mace
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    So how did you calculate this Mace?
    I just put the coordinates into my flight planner. I could do the calculations by hand to verify. I have not done that yet.



    Also, I don't understand what you said earlier about flight plans. Surely one could just fly from point A to point B in a straight line?
    Right, you would fly a straight line. But what was drawn in that video was not a straight line in reality.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Rago
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Just thought I'd let you know the Sheikh who done this research; Sheikh Zindani was the founder and former secretary-general of the Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah, based in Saudi Arabia and he is a pretty clever bloke.

    And who are you? If you want to discredit the Sheikhs research at least bring real proof.

    Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu 'Abdullaah
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    So how did you calculate this Mace?

    Also, I don't understand what you said earlier about flight plans. Surely one could just fly from point A to point B in a straight line?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mace
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    To further put this in perspective, we're talking about a difference of 120m relative to the peak of the mountain. This is not a very serious issue.

    The only reason it has come up is because this video makes the exaggerated claim, based on a faulty methodology, that the 3 points line up perfectly with the line going "directly through" the military camp.

    The video claims the aim is perfect (and therefore I guess miraculous). I'm saying the aim is not perfect, but just very good.
    Last edited by Mace; 28-02-08, 04:20 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mace
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Originally posted by Al-Farooq View Post
    Let's assume your calculations are correct.

    Is it possible that the shift in tectonic plates (or another geographical/ geological development) during the period of time from the life of Muhammed salAllahu alayhe wasallam to the present day, may account for the slight inaccuracy (assuming your calculations are correct) in what is witnessed today?
    I don't know. It's possible the error could have been worse 1400 years ago. How would we know? We would need precise coordinates for each of the 3 points taken 1400+ years ago. Which is obviously impossible.

    But again to put this in perspective, if you're praying in the masjid, you're praying in pretty much the right direction. It's a just a small error. If the mountain had been further away, only then would be error be more significant.

    But then if the mountain had been further away, they probably wouldn't have used it as a landmark.

    I'm sure you can find greater errors in direction in other masjids. For that matter, some people I know here on the east coast of the US actually stubbornly pray to the SE (because that's how it looks on a typical projected map), which of course is totally wrong. They are not facing anywhere near the kabaa if they do that. But most people get it right and pray to a NE bearing from here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Al-Farooq
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Originally posted by Mace View Post
    Actually the visual distortion in a program like Google Earth is different (but as bad or sometimes even worse) as a flat map, unless you adjust the view point perfectly as you walk the path, which I didn't see him do in the video. Remember it's a 3D space, but still projected on a 2D screen. So you get a distortion from your chosen viewpoint.

    But again, you can just go back to the calculations. If you calculate the bearing from the masjid to the kaaba, you'll see that it doesn't go neatly through that camp as the video shows. It goes to the left. But at that point it's only slightly off. The rest of the line gets progressively worse until of course you start to approach the Kaaba again.

    And furthermore if you do it yourself in Google Earth and just draw a "straight" line like that, and then trace along it, you'll see that the bearing to Makkah from various points on that line will change.

    In other words if you were fly that line you would require constant changing of bearing, which is a good indication that you aren't flying straight.

    Another way to say it is that the video makes the claim that the three points are on one straight flight path which, if you calculate the flight path, is not true. It doesn't line up that neatly. And certainly no pilot would make a flight path of 800km just by eyeballing it in google earth like that.

    But again, if you're standing in the masjid and praying, then facing the mountain is very close to the right direction. Probably as close as most people get in practice anyway. But it's not a perfect line like the video shows.

    I hope that makes sense.
    Let's assume your calculations are correct.

    Is it possible that the shift in tectonic plates (or another geographical/ geological development) during the period of time from the life of Muhammed salAllahu alayhe wasallam to the present day, may account for the slight inaccuracy (assuming your calculations are correct) in what is witnessed today?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mace
    replied
    Re: Satellites witness truth of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Originally posted by Al-Farooq View Post
    Hold on, though.

    The video is made using Google Earth (or something similar), doesn't that take the 3D aspect of the earth into account, already?

    The line isn't drawn on a flat map, it is done using Google Earth (or something similar), so isn't your whole point redundant?

    Or am I missing something, here? *scratches head*
    Actually the visual distortion in a program like Google Earth is different (but as bad or sometimes even worse) as a flat map, unless you adjust the view point perfectly as you walk the path, which I didn't see him do in the video. Remember it's a 3D space, but still projected on a 2D screen. So you get a distortion from your chosen viewpoint.

    But again, you can just go back to the calculations. If you calculate the bearing from the masjid to the kaaba, you'll see that it doesn't go neatly through that camp as the video shows. It goes to the left. But at that point it's only slightly off. The rest of the line gets progressively worse until of course you start to approach the Kaaba again.

    And furthermore if you do it yourself in Google Earth and just draw a "straight" line like that, and then trace along it, you'll see that the bearing to Makkah from various points on that line will change.

    In other words if you were fly that line you would require constant changing of bearing, which is a good indication that you aren't flying straight.

    Another way to say it is that the video makes the claim that the three points are on one straight flight path which, if you calculate the flight path, is not true. It doesn't line up that neatly. And certainly no pilot would make a flight path of 800km just by eyeballing it in google earth like that.

    But again, if you're standing in the masjid and praying, then facing the mountain is very close to the right direction. Probably as close as most people get in practice anyway. But it's not a perfect line like the video shows.

    I hope that makes sense.
    Last edited by Mace; 28-02-08, 03:50 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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