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Yasir Qadhi on Istigatha

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  • #61
    Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

    So here is my point, even if some fool did sujood and ruku in an organised manner for another creature and then called it Salah, it would not automatically be major shirk.
    #IslamIsInTheHeart

    #EveryoneIsMuslim

    #ShirkDoesNotExist

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

      Doesn't this example of the Nafs being taken as an "Ilah" put a wedge in the theory regarding the necessary linkage between Uluhiyyah and Rububiyyah? How is it possible for this anomaly to exist without opening the doors for other things to be taken as "Ilah" without qualifying them with any essential attributes of Lordship?

      Perhaps a way to explain this is by claiming that the Nafs is elevated to the status of an Ilah when it replaces Allah's right to ultimate obedience which is connected to Lordship?

      Abu Sulayman

      How do the Ash'aris explain the Shirk in 45:23?

      I understand but the issue stems from the fact that rabb & ilah encompasses more than just their definition. In 9:31 Allah informs that the christians and jews took their rabbis and monks as rabbs beside Him when they obeyed them in whatever they allowed or prohibited for them. In this ayah we learn that by obeying people in going against what Allah has commanded is a form of worship and those that are obeyed are taken as lords beside Allah.

      In this example and the one about nafs the essential attributes of Lordship & Divinity are not ascribed, the christians don't believe their monks are actual lords nor do people believe their desires are divine. Allah informs that such actions constitute taking rabb & ilah beside Him, as both cases involve elevating other than Allah to His rank. Believing that Allah is your Rabb is not just about accepting His Lordship & Divinity but also recognising that He is the ultimate authority. His authority extends to everything and as such it's incumbent on us to obey Him in all that He legislates for us, no person or thing has the right to be elevated or equalled to Him in His Obedience.


      Another important point that we learn from this ayah is that taking someone as a Lord is equivalent to worshipping them. When the christians took their monks & jesus as lords, Allah responded by saying that they were supposed to only worship one God.

      They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him


      So believing that someone is your lord means that you take it as your god, clearly indicating that rububiyyah is indeed inclusive of uluhiyyah.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

        I have spent the past week giving thought to this issue and came to realize that making a strong distinction between Rububiyyah and Uluhiyyah as well as attributing Tawhid al-Rububiyyah to the pagan Arabs is a far greater problem than I previously understood. What I don't understand is how Yasir Qadhi is so critical of MIAW's construction of the beliefs of the Mushrikeen when it seems like Ibn Taymiyyah was the first to advocate this framework. I'm also unsure as to why Ibn Taymiyyah made the distinction between Rububiyyah and Uluhiyyah if it wasn't to point out that Muslims were guilty of committing Shirk in this aspect like the Mushrikeen of Quraysh.

        Anyway, it looks like I disagree with Ibn Taymiyyah's approach on this issue. WaAllahu Alam.
        I haven't read up on ibn taymiyyah and how he utilises the distinction but i can assume that there's differences between him and miaw, just like when it comes to the issue of seeking intercession with the deceased. Despite both of them being against it there were major differences

        One reason that may explain why he's so critical of miaw theology when it came to the mushrikeen has to do with the outcomes of this belief, how it was utilised in legitimising mass takfir and shedding of muslim blood. If the views were completely identical then why did it not lead to the same outcome in ibn taymiyyah's time etc ?



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        • #64
          Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

          So here is my point, even if some fool did sujood and ruku in an organised manner for another creature and then called it Salah, it would not automatically be major shirk.
          I agree as well. just wanted to make the distinction as it wasn't an everyday act that people normally do that's all. Shirk isn't about just about the action itself but the underlying belief that it's based on.

          I

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post

            I agree as well. just wanted to make the distinction as it wasn't an everyday act that people normally do that's all. Shirk isn't about just about the action itself but the underlying belief that it's based on.

            I
            I thought we disagreed but we don't.....at least on this point

            So we have ruled out the Najdi innovated definition of shirk, now the question is what exactly are the underlying beliefs that make an act "Ibaadah" that if it is done for other than Allah it becomes major shirk.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

              #IslamIsInTheHeart

              #EveryoneIsMuslim

              #ShirkDoesNotExist
              Indeed, shirk does not exist if you are a Muslim

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                Indeed, shirk does not exist if you are a Muslim
                You're suggesting that making sujood to an idol is not shirk. If this is your 'tawheed' then I don't know what to say.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                  You're suggesting that making sujood to an idol is not shirk. If this is your 'tawheed' then I don't know what to say.
                  Well an idol is: "an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship".........so obviously that is shirk

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                    Well an idol is: "an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship".........so obviously that is shirk
                    Sujood and rukuh are acts of worship. What next, saying Allah isn't one without partners as long as you don't intend to mean it?

                    This is pure 'Only Allah can judge me' nonsense.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                      I thought we disagreed but we don't.....at least on this point

                      We never did tbh it's just that the way i formulated my disagreement that made it seem that way, was just trying to say physical acts of salah even when we disregard belief isn't an act that people do for each other.

                      Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                      So we have ruled out the Najdi innovated definition of shirk, now the question is what exactly are the underlying beliefs that make an act "Ibaadah" that if it is done for other than Allah it becomes major shirk.
                      I would say that the beliefs which lead to major shirk are quite diverse tbh as some deal with aspects of divinity while others don't. Those that deal with ascribing divinity/lordship to other than Allah will always be considered shirk eg pagans of makkah etc. As for the latter a good example would be believing in the lawfulness of obeying others in going against what Allah commanded, legislated etc.
                      Last edited by AdoonkaAlle; 27-02-21, 03:36 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                        Indeed, shirk does not exist if you are a Muslim

                        I'm a bit puzzled by that statement of yours, do you mean to imply that a muslim can't commit shirk ?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                          Well an idol is: "an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship".........so obviously that is shirk
                          Salah is an act of worship. But you said even salah towards other than Allah is not automatically shirk.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

                            Doesn't this example of the Nafs being taken as an "Ilah" put a wedge in the theory regarding the necessary linkage between Uluhiyyah and Rububiyyah? How is it possible for this anomaly to exist without opening the doors for other things to be taken as "Ilah" without qualifying them with any essential attributes of Lordship?

                            Perhaps a way to explain this is by claiming that the Nafs is elevated to the status of an Ilah when it replaces Allah's right to ultimate obedience which is connected to Lordship?

                            Abu Sulayman

                            How do the Ash'aris explain the Shirk in 45:23?
                            It is called minor shirk. And if you reflect on it, there is a link between Uluhiyyah and Rububiyyah even in minor shirk. Minor shirk relates to the perfection of Iman (faith). This is why Allah says,

                            The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (49:14)

                            Although we have submitted to Allah and intellectually see Allah as our Lord, we haven't necessarily truly realized His Lordship, at the level of perfection. Our hearts have a mixture of belief and unbelief (shirk) in the beginning, and it stays for a while. Many of us die with this mixture, belief and unbelief. It is because we haven't realized Allah's Lordship, that is why the mixture is there. This is why we pray, fast, recite the Quran and make dhikr, to remove this nifaq (hypocrisy). There are different levels of Iman (faith). This is the whole purpose of tasawwuf. To remove the nifaq. This is why tasawwuf is called Tawhid al Dhawqi (Experiential Tawhid).

                            The Messenger of Allah (saw) said, "Be mindful of Him, and you shall find Him at your side (or in front of you)" (Tirmidhi).

                            The key to completely removing this nifaq, is to realize that one cannot do it alone. It is only through Allah's help that one can remove it.

                            Shayh Nuh Keller wrote, "To clarify, a Sufi is a man of religious learning,because the hadith says, "My slave approaches Me with nothing more beloved to Me than what I have made obligatory upon him," and only through learning can the Sufi know the command of Allah, or what has been made obligatory for him. He has applied what he knew, because the hadith says he not only approaches Allah with the obligatory, but "keeps drawing nearer to Me with voluntary works until I love him." And in turn, Allah bequeathed him knowledge of what he did not know, because the hadith says, "And when I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his sight with which he sees, his hand with which he seizes, and his foot with which he walks," which is a metaphor for the consummate awareness of tawhid, or the ‘unity of Allah,’ which in the context of human actions such as hearing, sight, seizing, and walking, consists of realizing the words of the Qur'an about Allah that, "It is He who created you and what you do" (Qur'an 37:96)."

                            The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) who said: Allah Most High says: "He who is hostile to a friend of Mine I declare war against. My slave approaches Me with nothing more beloved to Me than what I have made obligatory upon him, and My slave keeps drawing nearer to Me with voluntary works until I love him. And when I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his sight with which he sees, his hand with which he seizes, and his foot with which he walks. If he asks me, I will surely give to him, and if he seeks refuge in Me, I will surely protect him" (Al Bukhari, Fath al-Bari, 11.340–41, hadith 6502).


                            And Allah knows best.


                            My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

                              It is called minor shirk. And if you reflect on it, there is a link between Uluhiyyah and Rububiyyah even in minor shirk. Minor shirk relates to the perfection of Iman (faith). This is why Allah says,

                              The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (49:14)

                              Although we have submitted to Allah and intellectually see Allah as our Lord, we haven't necessarily truly realized His Lordship, at the level of perfection. Our hearts have a mixture of belief and unbelief (shirk) in the beginning, and it stays for a while. Many of us die with this mixture, belief and unbelief. It is because we haven't realized Allah's Lordship, that is why the mixture is there. This is why we pray, fast, recite the Quran and make dhikr, to remove this nifaq (hypocrisy). There are different levels of Iman (faith). This is the whole purpose of tasawwuf. To remove the nifaq. This is why tasawwuf is called Tawhid al Dhawqi (Experiential Tawhid).

                              The Messenger of Allah (saw) said, "Be mindful of Him, and you shall find Him at your side (or in front of you)" (Tirmidhi).

                              The key to completely removing this nifaq, is to realize that one cannot do it alone. It is only through Allah's help that one can remove it.

                              Shayh Nuh Keller wrote, "To clarify, a Sufi is a man of religious learning,because the hadith says, "My slave approaches Me with nothing more beloved to Me than what I have made obligatory upon him," and only through learning can the Sufi know the command of Allah, or what has been made obligatory for him. He has applied what he knew, because the hadith says he not only approaches Allah with the obligatory, but "keeps drawing nearer to Me with voluntary works until I love him." And in turn, Allah bequeathed him knowledge of what he did not know, because the hadith says, "And when I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his sight with which he sees, his hand with which he seizes, and his foot with which he walks," which is a metaphor for the consummate awareness of tawhid, or the ‘unity of Allah,’ which in the context of human actions such as hearing, sight, seizing, and walking, consists of realizing the words of the Qur'an about Allah that, "It is He who created you and what you do" (Qur'an 37:96)."

                              The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) who said: Allah Most High says: "He who is hostile to a friend of Mine I declare war against. My slave approaches Me with nothing more beloved to Me than what I have made obligatory upon him, and My slave keeps drawing nearer to Me with voluntary works until I love him. And when I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his sight with which he sees, his hand with which he seizes, and his foot with which he walks. If he asks me, I will surely give to him, and if he seeks refuge in Me, I will surely protect him" (Al Bukhari, Fath al-Bari, 11.340–41, hadith 6502).


                              And Allah knows best.

                              Who else says that this Ayah refers to minor shirk?

                              Abu Sulayman


                              Would you agree with that assertion?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post

                                ..Allah informs that such actions constitute taking rabb & ilah beside Him, as both cases involve elevating other than Allah to His rank. Believing that Allah is your Rabb is not just about accepting His Lordship & Divinity but also recognising that He is the ultimate authority. His authority extends to everything and as such it's incumbent on us to obey Him in all that He legislates for us, no person or thing has the right to be elevated or equalled to Him in His Obedience.
                                Doesn't this prove that their Shirk in these circumstances are violations of Rububiyyah via Allah's right of ultimate obedience?

                                What about the issue of minor Shirk with regards to showing off in acts of worship? Are people taking other created beings as "Ilah" in this situation despite not attributing them with any qualities of Lordship? Why did the Prophet(saws) refer to this as minor Shirk (which appears to be solely related to Uluhiyyah) when it would have been more precise to call it "minor Kufr" based on these standards?

                                Comment

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