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University, Apostacy & The Crisis of Doubt - Hamza Tzortzis & Hisham Jafar

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  • University, Apostacy & The Crisis of Doubt - Hamza Tzortzis & Hisham Jafar



    Discussion between Ustadh Hisham Jafar and Ustadh Hamza Tzortzis, mandatory watching for those who have been through periods of doubt or confusion in their Iman.

    Topics covered:
    0:01:00 Muslim students, doubt leading to apostacy and suicide at university
    0:06:00 Genuine Intellectual Doubt vs Psycho-Spiritual Whisperings (waswasah)
    0:09:30 Mental whisperings & The Sahaba
    0:12:45 Sources of intellectual doubt/questions
    0:16:30 Sources of psycho-spiritual whisperings
    0:21:00 The Qur'an as a source of therapy
    0:23:00 Finding the underlying causes for intellectual questions
    0:28:00 Making sense of one's traumatic past
    00:35:00 How do we un-cloud the fitrah?
    00:40:00 Reflecting on nature as a form of dhikr
    00:45:00 Practical steps to dealing with with intellectual doubts/questions
    00:58:00 The Roots Academy Project

  • #2
    jazakullahu khairan, definitely putting this one on my watch list
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    • #3
      Lots of videos about this sort of thing on YouTube these days. Is apostasy that big a problem now?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Nabihah.C View Post
        Lots of videos about this sort of thing on YouTube these days. Is apostasy that big a problem now?
        It's more of an open problem. In the past people would just have major doubts or even disbelieve but keep quiet about it.

        The difference now is that Atheism and secularism are far more open in the world, the accepted norm. So it's easier to leave Islam for what is something normal to the world, and we are increasingly moving towards a global society with social media.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post

          It's more of an open problem. In the past people would just have major doubts or even disbelieve but keep quiet about it.

          The difference now is that Atheism and secularism are far more open in the world, the accepted norm. So it's easier to leave Islam for what is something normal to the world, and we are increasingly moving towards a global society with social media.
          When I was young we used to hear about people leaving Islam but we always thought it was lies and it was people who were paid to pretend they used to be Muslim.

          But there are so many of them now, we can't deny the problem anymore. All over twitter, facebook, youtube and everywhere. I saw one guy who used to have sites promoting Islam, another guy who was a teacher in an Islamic school. It seems to mostly be men, haven't seen many women leaving Islam

          One of my friends said that 1 in 5 muslims born outside the muslim world are leaving islam. I can't believe the number is that big. Have you heard that?

          Have you blogged about this problem?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Nabihah.C View Post

            When I was young we used to hear about people leaving Islam but we always thought it was lies and it was people who were paid to pretend they used to be Muslim.

            But there are so many of them now, we can't deny the problem anymore. All over twitter, facebook, youtube and everywhere. I saw one guy who used to have sites promoting Islam, another guy who was a teacher in an Islamic school. It seems to mostly be men, haven't seen many women leaving Islam

            One of my friends said that 1 in 5 muslims born outside the muslim world are leaving islam. I can't believe the number is that big. Have you heard that?

            Have you blogged about this problem?
            What do you mean by muslim world? Atheists are about 25% of university students, but that's just university and universities have always been the cultural home of atheists, agnostics, marxists, feminists - you name it. From the 1950s till today.

            In 99% of the case, they are liberals who follow Western Liberal thought on Enlightenment. To be fair to them, Islam is not the religion for them. If you're a humanist, feminist, liberal, LGBTQist, Islam is not the religion for them.

            The atheists and marxists especially the seniours are very self-imposing in universities, and force their anti-religious new atheist sentiments, on freshmen 1st year students.

            Ultimately we have to understand Islam is a collection of beliefs and ideology, and it shouldn't surprise us that some people disagree with the beliefs, ideas and values. It's a demographic inevitability.

            What the goal should be to keep the bell curve of the population in favour of religion and conservative values.

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            • #7
              Islam is not politically energized like Hindutva, European far-right christian white nationalism nor US christian nationalism.

              The only place where Islam is politically active is Turkey, Malaysia, Brunei.

              The whole methodology of Islamic debaters is wrong and counter-productive. Far too much emphasis into "clarifying orientalism" and not into going into the offensive against the opponents. Basically Muslims are too much on the defensive.

              Also Islamic establishment does not use conservative backlash, reactionary politics like Christians/Hindus do. I know Salafis use it but often to their own demise.

              I'm making a sort of journal that deals with how muslims can make popular movement to come into political power, and eventually unshackling the chains of the secular establishment. And how can Shariah be applied without being a thorn and detriment to muslims themselves. Plus, on how to delegitimize secular parties as unpatriotic and being anti-nation. We have to combine patriotism, nationalism and Islam.

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              • #8
                Muslim groups and the muslim establishment (the ever incompetent and useless ulema) have not been able to take advantage of the post modern skepticism towards Western enlightenment values that is present across the world. This is why universities in muslim countries are still stuck in the "modern" mentality rather than "post-modern" mentality.

                As said previously, we need to use the tactic of combining nationalism and Islam, developing 'right-wing' conservative-traditionalist thought at an intellectual level. We are still using 20th century tactics in 21st century, thanks to the beloved ulema.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SwordofKhaine View Post
                  Muslim groups and the muslim establishment (the ever incompetent and useless ulema) have not been able to take advantage of the post modern skepticism towards Western enlightenment values that is present across the world. This is why universities in muslim countries are still stuck in the "modern" mentality rather than "post-modern" mentality.

                  As said previously, we need to use the tactic of combining nationalism and Islam, developing 'right-wing' conservative-traditionalist thought at an intellectual level. We are still using 20th century tactics in 21st century, thanks to the beloved ulema.
                  Sorry. This combining with nationalism garbage that you keep spewing can only be digested by ignorants.

                  Your actions are either driven by your intention to do something for the sake of Allah, in which case nationalism is thrown out of the window altogether since it doesn't even exist in the interest level, OR it is driven by your 'patriotism' and 'love' for your man-made borders, which starkly contradicts Islamic notion of doing things for the sake of Allah.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by notEVOLVED View Post

                    Sorry. This combining with nationalism garbage that you keep spewing can only be digested by ignorants.

                    Your actions are either driven by your intention to do something for the sake of Allah, in which case nationalism is thrown out of the window altogether since it doesn't even exist in the interest level, OR it is driven by your 'patriotism' and 'love' for your man-made borders, which starkly contradicts Islamic notion of doing things for the sake of Allah.
                    Yes sure, keep on going with your own methods I'm sure worked quite well for you people hasn't it? Still stuck in the 1900s. As I said before the old methods of hujurs and mawlanas are dead, nobody listens to hujurs and mawlanas anymore.

                    Modernism is over, what arguments worked for that era is over. New arguments and methods are needed. In both Turkey and Malaysia, this has seen some success.

                    For arabs very few things were more valued to them then their tribes and their tribal lineage and heritage, and here you are some random forum twisting history. Give me a break. Also before you give me some lecture from your facts-twisting scholars, Prophet Muhammed (S) mentioned his own lineage back to Ismail(A) many times fondly. So obviously tribal identity was very important to the early arab muslims. And even today, tribal allegiances matter there a lot.

                    Now are you going to spin some revisionist story?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Once you start entertaining the thoughts and suggestions of shaytan, it chips away at your imaan

                      Go to a secular college with weak imaan you leave out a kafir

                      We are sending our children to hellfire because we are not equipping them with the tools and weapons to fight the shaytan
                      .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                      نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                      دولة الإسلامية باقية





                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SwordofKhaine View Post
                        nobody listens to hujurs and mawlanas anymore.
                        Speaking of which all madrassas should be nationalized once the conservative-nationalist government comes into power, and firstly replace the old guard ulema and begin a new order of scholars who actually know what they're talking about, have to have knowledge about the topic in which they give fatwa. And should not be allowed under any circumstance to create personality cults, and fight and quarrell with other scholars/speakers. Their purpose should be to guide society not fulfill personal vendetta.

                        In return their fatwas would have some legislating power in parliament, so basically they would form a branch of the government. Once they are purified and uncorrupted.

                        Seems like a dream, no more Ibn Baaz, Bilal Philips, Abu Khadeejah.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SwordofKhaine View Post

                          Yes sure, keep on going with your own methods I'm sure worked quite well for you people hasn't it? Still stuck in the 1900s. As I said before the old methods of hujurs and mawlanas are dead, nobody listens to hujurs and mawlanas anymore.

                          Modernism is over, what arguments worked for that era is over. New arguments and methods are needed. In both Turkey and Malaysia, this has seen some success.

                          For arabs very few things were more valued to them then their tribes and their tribal lineage and heritage, and here you are some random forum twisting history. Give me a break. Also before you give me some lecture from your facts-twisting scholars, Prophet Muhammed (S) mentioned his own lineage back to Ismail(A) many times fondly. So obviously tribal identity was very important to the early arab muslims. And even today, tribal allegiances matter there a lot.

                          Now are you going to spin some revisionist story?
                          I wonder why you are so incompetent to ever support any of your views with actual texts. If the facts are being "twisted", which is an ad hominem and it is quite surprising that someone who claims to be a proud public debater commits fallacies such as this, it shouldn't be hard for you to back up your views with actual evidences.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
                            Once you start entertaining the thoughts and suggestions of shaytan, it chips away at your imaan

                            Go to a secular college with weak imaan you leave out a kafir

                            We are sending our children to hellfire because we are not equipping them with the tools and weapons to fight the shaytan
                            When used to have the office in the masjid for the da'wah work we'd get one or two youths who would come to us or be brought by their families as either had kufr level doubts or were opening professing they'd left Islam.

                            The strange thing was the doubts were not even hard to disprove for the most part, not difficult to deal with but the traditionalist imams in the area are totally lacking the necessary skills, even if they have the knowledge of the deen these people need.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nabihah.C View Post

                              When I was young we used to hear about people leaving Islam but we always thought it was lies and it was people who were paid to pretend they used to be Muslim.

                              But there are so many of them now, we can't deny the problem anymore. All over twitter, facebook, youtube and everywhere. I saw one guy who used to have sites promoting Islam, another guy who was a teacher in an Islamic school. It seems to mostly be men, haven't seen many women leaving Islam

                              One of my friends said that 1 in 5 muslims born outside the muslim world are leaving islam. I can't believe the number is that big. Have you heard that?

                              Have you blogged about this problem?
                              Those fake ex-Muslims still exist, but they tend to be on the Christian side of things, it's often cringe-worthy easy to catch them out, they'd not even have a convincing backstory.

                              But christianity is now no longer the dominant deen in the west, the deen of the west follows the trinity of secularism / liberalism / democracy and it is this deen which is surrounding us all the time, being force-fed to Muslim children in schools every day.
                              FOLLOW THE NEW BLOG - GINGERBEARDMAN - Muslim, father, husband, writer, defender of ginger rights!

                              www.facebook.com/outreach4Islam - Outreach4Islam have been working together in Leicester, calling the not yet Muslims to Islam since 2006.

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