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Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

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    Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Today Czech Republic has the largest percentage of atheist with atleast 37% declaring themselves as convinced atheists.

    The story of atheism in Czech republic along with some other European countries can be traced to the Thirty Years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Europeans slaughtered each other like pigs resulting in 8 million deaths.

    Interestingly this war was started between Catholic Austria and Bohemia(modern day Czech republic). The Bohemians had suffered a lot which contributed to their distaste for religion.

    Among one of the results of the Thirty years' war was secularism. Luther promoted the idea of finding your personal god and interpretation of the Bible. This was in many ways the embryo of secularism.

    Now then,

    We have a similar conflict between Shias led by Iran and sunnis led by uh......no one I guess. Saudis are meanwhile fighting their own separate cold war against Iran.

    This conflict has already led to destruction of many Syrian and Iraqi cities along with much loss of life.

    Given that religion is blamed as one of the main reasons of this war, how long before people decide that religion is the cause of all the violence and say," Let's get rid off it." Could the middle eastern and north African people end up secularized into atheism as a result of this conflict like Europe was?

    #2
    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Originally posted by Spicen View Post
    Today Czech Republic has the largest percentage of atheist with atleast 37% declaring themselves as convinced atheists.

    The story of atheism in Czech republic along with some other European countries can be traced to the Thirty Years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Europeans slaughtered each other like pigs resulting in 8 million deaths.

    Interestingly this war was started between Catholic Austria and Bohemia(modern day Czech republic). The Bohemians had suffered a lot which contributed to their distaste for religion.

    Among one of the results of the Thirty years' war was secularism. Luther promoted the idea of finding your personal god and interpretation of the Bible. This was in many ways the embryo of secularism.

    Now then,

    We have a similar conflict between Shias led by Iran and sunnis led by uh......no one I guess. Saudis are meanwhile fighting their own separate cold war against Iran.

    This conflict has already led to destruction of many Syrian and Iraqi cities along with much loss of life.

    Given that religion is blamed as one of the main reasons of this war, how long before people decide that religion is the cause of all the violence and say," Let's get rid off it." Could the middle eastern and north African people end up secularized into atheism as a result of this conflict like Europe was?
    It will happen the Prophet :saw: said that in the end times the Muslim population will decrease before it dominates it doesn't matter though there will always remain a group of Muslims.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

      Originally posted by Spicen View Post
      Today Czech Republic has the largest percentage of atheist with atleast 37% declaring themselves as convinced atheists.

      The story of atheism in Czech republic along with some other European countries can be traced to the Thirty Years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Europeans slaughtered each other like pigs resulting in 8 million deaths.

      Interestingly this war was started between Catholic Austria and Bohemia(modern day Czech republic). The Bohemians had suffered a lot which contributed to their distaste for religion.

      Among one of the results of the Thirty years' war was secularism. Luther promoted the idea of finding your personal god and interpretation of the Bible. This was in many ways the embryo of secularism.

      Now then,

      We have a similar conflict between Shias led by Iran and sunnis led by uh......no one I guess. Saudis are meanwhile fighting their own separate cold war against Iran.

      This conflict has already led to destruction of many Syrian and Iraqi cities along with much loss of life.

      Given that religion is blamed as one of the main reasons of this war, how long before people decide that religion is the cause of all the violence and say," Let's get rid off it." Could the middle eastern and north African people end up secularized into atheism as a result of this conflict like Europe was?
      I think not, and the basic reason is because the Sunni-Shia conflict is much older than 30 years.

      So this is another chapter in the 1300 year War.

      This War will not finish with the destruction or takeover of one city or one country.

      1000 years ago Egypt was a Shia country. Sunnis took it over but Shiasm did not finish.

      500 years ago Iran was a Sunni country. Shias took it over but Sunni Islam did not finish.

      I believe this War will continue until the prophecy is fulfilled that Dajjal will rise from Isfahan (Iran).

      As for producing Atheists, many people in Iran are already atheists - its a byproduct of being ruled by a religious
      dogma that does not make sense.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

        Originally posted by Abu Jarir View Post
        It will happen the Prophet :saw: said that in the end times the Muslim population will decrease before it dominates it doesn't matter though there will always remain a group of Muslims.
        That is long after Mahdi, Dajjal, Isa (as) etc. It is also after the "Rapture" (when the souls of the believers are taken by a divine wind).

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

          I don't fear so much atheism or secularism being widespread in the Islamic world. I fear backwardness manifesting itself as tribalism, sectarianism and authoritarianism.

          I have two points I want to make about the so called Shia-Sunni conflict:
          1. Saudi-Arabia doesn't represent and certainly doesn't rule over all Sunnis. Same goes for Iran. Although they rule over a bigger proportion, not all Shias are ruled or represented by Iran.
          2. We Muslims must make a distinction between state hostilities and the plurality of Islam. We should promote theological dialogue based on intellectualism, reason and logic.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

            Originally posted by coffeecat View Post
            I think not, and the basic reason is because the Sunni-Shia conflict is much older than 30 years.

            So this is another chapter in the 1300 year War.

            This War will not finish with the destruction or takeover of one city or one country.

            1000 years ago Egypt was a Shia country. Sunnis took it over but Shiasm did not finish.

            500 years ago Iran was a Sunni country. Shias took it over but Sunni Islam did not finish.

            I believe this War will continue until the prophecy is fulfilled that Dajjal will rise from Isfahan (Iran).

            As for producing Atheists, many people in Iran are already atheists - its a byproduct of being ruled by a religious
            dogma that does not make sense.
            The fatimids were Ismailis and were fundamentally a different "ummah" from the one in Iran- just like salafis and Sufis are fundamentally different ummahs- which was fueled by Persian nationalism. Putting both together is oversimplification.

            Anyway, various political elements such as Habsburg- France rivalry, Habsburg-Bohemian rivalry, etc preceded long before the thirty years' war.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

              Originally posted by Amazigh View Post
              I don't fear so much atheism or secularism being widespread in the Islamic world.
              You think wrong.

              Secularism, atheism and westernization are the single biggest existential threat to Islam.

              I think you're new to political aspects of islam. Once you know more you will understood.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

                Originally posted by Spicen View Post
                You think wrong.

                Secularism, atheism and westernization are the single biggest existential threat to Islam.

                I think you're new to political aspects of islam. Once you know more you will understood.
                You said yourself this backwardness (sectarianism) leads to increase in atheism and secularism.
                Thus it is only logical to tackle the problem by it's roots.
                If the Islamic world was actually intellectually capable, atheism would never gain any momentum.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

                  I think a big population in Iran and Saudia is already far from religion and they just have to abide by the local laws and regulations. You should see them when they are on holidays. You can observe that in bars and nightclubs of Bahrain on Thursday and Friday and registrations numbers on all the cars parked outside.

                  In my opinion it's Allah who guides or misguides not environment, education, wars, secularism or sectarianism. You can find the people with totally opposite views in the same family.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

                    Originally posted by Spicen View Post
                    Today Czech Republic has the largest percentage of atheist with atleast 37% declaring themselves as convinced atheists.

                    The story of atheism in Czech republic along with some other European countries can be traced to the Thirty Years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Europeans slaughtered each other like pigs resulting in 8 million deaths.

                    Interestingly this war was started between Catholic Austria and Bohemia(modern day Czech republic). The Bohemians had suffered a lot which contributed to their distaste for religion.

                    Among one of the results of the Thirty years' war was secularism. Luther promoted the idea of finding your personal god and interpretation of the Bible. This was in many ways the embryo of secularism.

                    Now then,

                    We have a similar conflict between Shias led by Iran and sunnis led by uh......no one I guess. Saudis are meanwhile fighting their own separate cold war against Iran.

                    This conflict has already led to destruction of many Syrian and Iraqi cities along with much loss of life.

                    Given that religion is blamed as one of the main reasons of this war, how long before people decide that religion is the cause of all the violence and say," Let's get rid off it." Could the middle eastern and north African people end up secularized into atheism as a result of this conflict like Europe was?
                    The Thirty Years' War ended over three hundred and fifty years ago, so it's not likely to have had much connexion with the number of atheists in the Czech Republic today/

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

                      Originally posted by abutarekh View Post
                      I think a big population in Iran and Saudia is already far from religion and they just have to abide by the local laws and regulations. You should see them when they are on holidays. You can observe that in bars and nightclubs of Bahrain on Thursday and Friday and registrations numbers on all the cars parked outside.

                      In my opinion it's Allah who guides or misguides not environment, education, wars, secularism or sectarianism. You can find the people with totally opposite views in the same family.
                      Iran's atheists are relatively known. I don't think there are too many atheists in KSA, maybe liberals who break rules and taboos but not convinced atheists.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

                        Originally posted by Amazigh View Post
                        I don't fear so much atheism or secularism being widespread in the Islamic world. I fear backwardness manifesting itself as tribalism, sectarianism and authoritarianism.

                        I have two points I want to make about the so called Shia-Sunni conflict:
                        1. Saudi-Arabia doesn't represent and certainly doesn't rule over all Sunnis. Same goes for Iran. Although they rule over a bigger proportion, not all Shias are ruled or represented by Iran.
                        2. We Muslims must make a distinction between state hostilities and the plurality of Islam. We should promote theological dialogue based on intellectualism, reason and logic.
                        You sound like a modernist. We consider the deen based on the Qur'an and sunnah, not based on our own desires and reasoning
                        وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
                        They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

                          Originally posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
                          You sound like a modernist. We consider the deen based on the Qur'an and sunnah, not based on our own desires and reasoning
                          Because logic and reason go against the Qur'an and Sunnah?

                          "Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are those that are deaf and dumb and do not reason." (Qur'an 8:22)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

                            Originally posted by Amazigh View Post
                            Because logic and reason go against the Qur'an and Sunnah?

                            "Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are those that are deaf and dumb and do not reason." (Qur'an 8:22)
                            This refers to thinking and contemplating about the signs of Allah to come to the conclusion that Islam is true, and believing in Islam. Has nothing to do with religious opinions.

                            But when we consider issues such as fiqh rulings and aqeedah, "reason" enters into it only in deductions like qiyas, but even that is through weighing the evidence from the qur'an and sunnah. My point is, never in Islam do we say "well this is part of the religion or this isn't because I feel this way, or because this makes sense to me." Countless sects in the past went astray and outside of Islam using similar reasoning. Why dont you look up the tafseer of that ayah before you try to take others out context again, try tafsir ibn kathir, he was a real scholar who did not rule in accordance to his desires.
                            وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
                            They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

                              Originally posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
                              This refers to thinking and contemplating about the signs of Allah to come to the conclusion that Islam is true, and believing in Islam. Has nothing to do with religious opinions.

                              But when we consider issues such as fiqh rulings and aqeedah, "reason" enters into it only in deductions like qiyas, but even that is through weighing the evidence from the qur'an and sunnah. My point is, never in Islam do we say "well this is part of the religion or this isn't because I feel this way, or because this makes sense to me." Countless sects in the past went astray and outside of Islam using similar reasoning. Why dont you look up the tafseer of that ayah before you try to take others out context again, try tafsir ibn kathir, he was a real scholar who did not rule in accordance to his desires.
                              You just gave me your own interpretation on that verse of the Qur'an.

                              "And He lays abomination upon those who do not reason." (Qur'an 10:100)

                              Reason is an important aspect to come up with a conclusion. Allah (SWT) gave us a brain to think and intellect to advance.

                              Comment

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