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Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

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    #31
    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Originally posted by ALAS View Post
    Yes one of the aims behind these fake sectarian conflicts and fitnahs is to disappoint the next generations of middle east from religion. But I think the basis of Islam is much more stronger than Christianity. We should not forget that Christianity was expired.

    But Islam is different, it is still fresh and it is still intact. All the other so called Islamic governments or inheritable kingdoms which may be mistakenly called caliphate like Abbasids, Ottomans, Safavids and ..... could not reflect the reality of Islam and could not take advantage of it's potentials. The more science improves the more the validity of Islam becomes vivid. The more people become frustrated from man-made ideologies the more they turn back towards Islam and this fact that humanism can not manage the world.

    So I think these fitnahs in the middle east improve the worldview of it's people and will help them to distinguish wrong and right better and will help them to decide for themselves better.
    Problem with Iran is that it's a den for Kuffar Shi'a,

    Breeding all streets of Kufr/Shirk,

    نعوذ بالله من ذلك
    http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

    "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

    – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

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      #32
      Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

      Originally posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
      Precisely, amazigh read this post of abufulaans, then read it again, then read it again. He said it much more eloquently than I did. Those ayat in the quran concerning reason and reflection refer to issues of iman, how do we come to the conclusion Islam is the truth, reflecting on the signs of Allah, and things of that manner, and if you read the tafseer of these ayat, the mfasireen have pointed this out, and you will find that these ayat are almost all addressing the disbelievers, or they are heart softening ayat to increase the Muslims in iman.

      However, when it comes to forming religious judgements and opinions, we find ayat like

      Ahzab 36. It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.

      Nisaa 59. O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

      An noor 51. The only statement of the [true] believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful.

      Nisaa 65. But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission.

      And I could find many more ayat, and also many hadith on this subject. Whenever we have a dispute, or a question in our religion, we return the issue to Qur'an and sunnah, not our own reasoning. Whatever the quran and sunnah says, we obey it absolutely and we have no problems with it, as you can see in the ayat above, that is true Iman.

      So you were incorrect in what you said Amazigh, the dispute with the shia is judged in accordance with the quran and the sunnah of the Prophet(saw), not our reasoning and intellects. We compare the beliefs of the shia and their ibadah and their actions and their founders to the quran, and what the ulema have found is that shias have committed kufr and shirk in many different aspects of their beliefs, and contradicted many ayat of the Qur'an. And as an additional proof, Ali ibn Abi Talib(ra), who the shia deify and worship aside Allah, actually executed early members of their sect for apostasy because of their deificiation of him. So after we come to the conclusion that shias have apostasized from the religion, we once again return to the quran and sunnah, and determine what should be done to apostates...The texts are quire clear on this matter, especially in tbe sunnah
      Okay your point is clear. But my next question, how do you apply Sharia in the 21th century without using reason and logic? And what is your opinion of past scholars who had great intellect when it came to Islamic thought, philosophy, biology and science in general? They applied logic and reasoning all the time.

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        #33
        Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

        I've always (unfairly) compared Sunnis to Protestants, and Shia to Catholics. It was the Protestants (like Sunnis) who saw Catholics (like Shia) as superstitious degenerates ruled by a half-pagan clergy, while the Protestants themselves (like Sunni) returned to scripture and - especially Puritans (like Salafi) - rejected the sanctity of objects/shrines thus reducing everything to merely material value.

        Eventually I think these elements will lead to individualist materialistic atheism in the Sunni world (like Britain today), and revolutionary secularism in the Shia world (like France).

        Of course I'm just guessing, and the Sunni-Shia conflict has only just begun in Europe, Africa and South East Asia...
        Last edited by oakandivy; 30-09-17, 08:43 PM. Reason: Minor changes

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          #34
          Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

          Originally posted by oakandivy View Post
          I've always (unfairly) compared Sunnis to Protestants, and Shia to Catholics. It was the Protestants (like Sunnis) who saw Catholics (like Shia) as superstitious degenerates ruled by a half-pagan clergy, while the Protestants themselves (like Sunni) returned to scripture and - especially Puritans (like Salafi) - rejected the sanctity of objects/shrines thus reducing everything to merely material value.

          Eventually I think these elements will lead to individualist materialistic atheism in the Sunni world (like Britain today), and revolutionary secularism in the Shia world (like France).

          Of course I'm just guessing, and the Sunni-Shia conflict has only just begun in Europe, Africa and South East Asia...
          South-East Asia?

          So far there's no bad blood between sunnis and shias in Bangladesh and India.

          But your descriptions are eeringly accurate.

          Comment


            #35
            Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

            Originally posted by oakandivy View Post
            I've always (unfairly) compared Sunnis to Protestants, and Shia to Catholics. It was the Protestants (like Sunnis) who saw Catholics (like Shia) as superstitious degenerates ruled by a half-pagan clergy, while the Protestants themselves (like Sunni) returned to scripture and - especially Puritans (like Salafi) - rejected the sanctity of objects/shrines thus reducing everything to merely material value.

            Eventually I think these elements will lead to individualist materialistic atheism in the Sunni world (like Britain today), and revolutionary secularism in the Shia world (like France).

            Of course I'm just guessing, and the Sunni-Shia conflict has only just begun in Europe, Africa and South East Asia...
            :salams

            You should NOT compare Sunnis and Shia to Protestants and Catholics. There is no REAL analogy.
            Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
            " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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              #36
              Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

              Originally posted by Spicen View Post
              Today Czech Republic has the largest percentage of atheist with atleast 37% declaring themselves as convinced atheists.

              The story of atheism in Czech republic along with some other European countries can be traced to the Thirty Years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Europeans slaughtered each other like pigs resulting in 8 million deaths.

              Interestingly this war was started between Catholic Austria and Bohemia(modern day Czech republic). The Bohemians had suffered a lot which contributed to their distaste for religion.

              Among one of the results of the Thirty years' war was secularism. Luther promoted the idea of finding your personal god and interpretation of the Bible. This was in many ways the embryo of secularism.

              Now then,

              We have a similar conflict between Shias led by Iran and sunnis led by uh......no one I guess. Saudis are meanwhile fighting their own separate cold war against Iran.

              This conflict has already led to destruction of many Syrian and Iraqi cities along with much loss of life.

              Given that religion is blamed as one of the main reasons of this war, how long before people decide that religion is the cause of all the violence and say," Let's get rid off it." Could the middle eastern and north African people end up secularized into atheism as a result of this conflict like Europe was?
              how is dajjal gona set up and be mr powerful in this region if there isnt people outside of israel who will follow kufr??
              Last edited by Dontknowname; 18-10-17, 01:28 PM.

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                #37
                Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

                Originally posted by Abu Kamel View Post
                :salams

                You should NOT compare Sunnis and Shia to Protestants and Catholics. There is no REAL analogy.
                true but the fighting it self does exist and leads to many adopting nationalistic secular ways

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                  #38
                  Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

                  Originally posted by Amazigh View Post
                  Okay your point is clear. But my next question, how do you apply Sharia in the 21th century without using reason and logic? And what is your opinion of past scholars who had great intellect when it came to Islamic thought, philosophy, biology and science in general? They applied logic and reasoning all the time.
                  Theres a difference between NEVER using your brain, and using ur own intellect to supersede what is already known of islam, e.g. in battle commanders and soldiers use their intellect to best fight within the frame of the shariah, there is no obligatory military tactic that islam says you MUST USE rather there's wiggle room. Thats because there are maters in islam where there is room and matters where there is little or NO room, so your assumption that we are saying 'you cannot use ur brain' is wrong so i dont know why you brought up stuff like biology and science.

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