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The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

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  • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

    i think you make some good points especially about tawheed and worshipping Allah swt alone, im interested to see what brother abu sulayman has to say....
    i'd suggest you read the earlier posts where all of this has been answered

    Wahhabis Refuted


    • (Holy Qur'an 3:103) And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided.

      There are two major sects of Islam which are sunni and shia. Sunnis are on the right path.

      Sunnis contain:

      Deo bandi
      Ahle Hadis (wahabi)

      Shias contain:


      Sunnis make 98 percent of the Muslim nation.


      • Originally posted by Eyas Shah View Post
        (Holy Qur'an 3:103) And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided.

        There are two major sects of Islam which are sunni and shia. Sunnis are on the right path.

        Sunnis contain:

        Deo bandi
        Ahle Hadis (wahabi)

        Shias contain:


        Sunnis make 98 percent of the Muslim nation.
        You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

        You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.


        • Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post


          I have taken Ahmadis as shia. Most of the scholars take them as disbelievers.


          • Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

            and i havent been told how the kuffar of quraysh are different to people who make duaa/seek help or intercession from other than Allah whether its the normal dead or a prophet

            please tell me im eager to know how shirk and grave worshipping can be made halal in a monotheistic faith
            According to Wahhābī belief, the Mushrikūn of Quraysh in the time of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) affirmed Tawḥīd al-Rubūbiyya; that is, they believed:

            1. Allāh alone is the Creator, Sustainer and Bringer of benefit and harm

            2. These qualities are not affirmed for any of their false gods.

            It will be demonstrated below from the Qur’ān, ḥadīths & historical reports that the Mushrikūn did not affirm tawḥīd in rubūbiyya, but associated partners with Allāh in qualities of rubūbiyya. First, it will be shown that the Mushrikūn did not have a correct understanding of the attributes of Allāh to begin with. It will then be shown that the Mushrikūn ascribed independent powers to their objects of worship i.e. qualities of rubūbiyya.

            [For a full refutation of Wahhābī belief on this subject (not limited to a discussion on only the Mushrikūn of Arabia), see Naqd al-Ru’yat al-Wahhābiyyah (Critique of Wahhābī Ideology) by ‘Uthmān al-Nābulsī.]

            The Mushrikūn did not believe Allāh Knows Everything

            The Qur’ān states that in the ākhirah, it will be said to the idolaters of Makkah:

            ظننتم أن الله لا يعلم كثيرا مما تعملون
            “You believed that Allāh does not know a lot of what you would do.” (Qur’ān, 41:22)

            Imām al-Ṭabari explains:

            يقول جلّ ثناؤه: ولكن حسبتم حين ركبتم في الدنيا ما ركبتم من معاصي الله أن الله لا يعلم كثيراً مما تعملون من أعمالكم الخبيثة

            “He – Exalted is His Praise – says: ‘But you assumed, when you perpetrated what you perpetrated of disobedience to Allāh, that Allāh does not know much of what you do, of despicable acts.” (Tafsīr al-Ṭabari, Maktaba Hajr, 20:411)

            The Qur’ān continues to says:

            وذلكم ظنكم الذي ظننتم بربكم أردكم

            “This is your belief that you conceived of your Rabb that has ruined you.” (Qur’ān, 41:23)

            Imām al-Ṭabari explains:

            يقول تعالى ذكره: وهذا الذي كان منكم فى الدنيا من ظنكم أن الله لا يعلم كثيرا مما تعملون من قبائح أعمالك ومساوئها هو ظنكم الذي ظننتم بربكم فى الدنيا أردكم يعني: أهلككم

            “He – Exalted is His Mention – says: ‘Your belief in the dunyā that Allāh does not know much of what you do, of despicable and bad deeds, is your belief that you conceived of your Rabb in the dunyā. It has ruined you.’” (Tafsīr al-Ṭabari, Maktaba Hajr, 20:412)

            It is clear from this that the Mushrikūn did not believe Allāh is All-Knowing and All-Aware.

            The Mushrikūn did not Believe Allāh Hears Everything

            According to a ḥadīth of Bukhārī & Muslim, ‘Abdullāh ibn Mas‘ūd (رضي الله عنه) said:

            اجْتَمَعَ عِنْدَ الْبَيْتِ ثَلَاثَةُ نَفَرٍ، قُرَشِيَّانِ وَثَقَفِيٌّ، أَوْ ثَقَفِيَّانِ وَقُرَشِيٌّ، قَلِيلٌ فِقْهُ قُلُوبِهِمْ، كَثِيرٌ شَحْمُ بُطُونِهِمْ، فَقَالَ أَحَدُهُمْ: أَتُرَوْنَ اللهَ يَسْمَعُ مَا نَقُولُ؟ وَقَالَ الْآخَرُ: يَسْمَعُ، إِنْ جَهَرْنَا، وَلَا يَسْمَعُ، إِنْ أَخْفَيْنَا وَقَالَ الْآخَرُ: إِنْ كَانَ يَسْمَعُ، إِذَا جَهَرْنَا، فَهُوَ يَسْمَعُ إِذَا أَخْفَيْنَا

            “Three people (from the Mushrikūn) gathered around the Ka‘bah…One of them said: ‘Do you think Allāh hears what we are saying?’ The second said: ‘He hears if we are loud and He does not hear if we are quiet.’ The third said: ‘If he hears when we are loud, then He (must) hear when we are quiet.’” (Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim)

            This shows some Mushrikūn did not believe Allāh is All-Hearing, while others expressed doubts about it.

            The Mushrikūn did not Believe Allāh has Power Over Everything

            It is well-known that the Mushrikūn denied that Allāh is able to bring the dead back to life. Allāh says in the Qur’ān:

            وَضَرَبَ لَنَا مَثَلاً وَنَسِيَ خَلْقَهُ قَالَ مَن يُحيِي ٱلْعِظَامَ وَهِيَ رَمِيمٌ

            “He (man) gives an example of Us, forgetting his creation. He says: Who will give life to the bones when they are rubble?” (36:78)

            In relation to this, Imām al-Ḥākim narrates with an authentic chain to ‘Abdullāh ibn al-‘Abbās (رضي الله عنهما) that he said:

            جاء العاص بن وائل إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بعظم حائل ففته فقال: يا محمد، أ يبعث الله هذا بعد ما أرى؟ قال: نعم، يبعث الله هذا ثم يميتك ثم يحييك ثم يدخلك نار جهنم

            “Al-‘Āṣ ibn Wā’il came to the Messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وسلم) with a decaying bone, and he crushed it (in his hand). He said: ‘Muḥammad, will Allāh resurrect this after what I have seen?!’ He said: ‘Indeed! Allāh will resurrect this. Further, He will cause you to die, then bring you to life, and then put you in the fire of Jahannam!” (Mustadrak al-Ḥākim)

            Imām al-Ḥākim said “this ḥadīth is ṣaḥīḥ according to the condition of the two shaykhs (al-Bukhārī and Muslim) although they did not relate it”, and al-Dhahabī agreed with him. (Mustadrak al-Ḥākim, Dār al-Ma‘rifah, 2:429) The editors of the Dār al-Ta’ṣīl edition of Mustadrak al-Ḥākim agree, saying: “this chain is according to the condition of the two shaykhs.” (Mustadrak al-Ḥākim, Dār al-Ta’ṣīl, 4:354)

            Hence, the Mushrikūn did not believe that Allāh had the power to bring the dead to life, which is denial of His omnipotence.

            In some places, the Qur’ān states the Mushrikūn did not believe in Allāh (e.g. 2:28, 57:8). This may refer to the doubts they had in the existence of Allāh, as will be explained below. But it could also refer to the fact that they denied the power of Allāh. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) relates from Allāh in a ḥadīth qudsī:

            كذبني ابن آدم ولم يكن له ذلك..فأما تكذيبه إياي فقوله: لن يعيدني كما بدأني

            “The son of Ādam rejects me, though he has no right to do that…His denial of Me is his statement: ‘He will never recreate me as He created me’.” (Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī)

            The Mushrikūn would say: “Does He Make the Gods One God?!”

            The Mushrikūn would say about the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم): “Does he make the gods one god? This is surely a strange thing.” (Qur’ān, 38:5) They found it strange because they did not understand how One Being could be aware of the affairs of all creation, and hear the supplications of all people. This was on account of perceiving Allāh in human terms. Hence, Imām al-Ṭabarī said in the explanation of this verse:

            وقوله: { أجَعَلَ الآلِهَةَ إِلهاً وَاحِداً } يقول: وقال هؤلاء الكافرون الذين قالوا: مـحمد ساحر كذّاب: أجعل مـحمد الـمعبودات كلها واحداً، يسمع دعاءنا جميعنا، ويعلـم عبـادة كل عابد عبدَه منا { إنَّ هَذَا لَشَيْءٌ عُجابٌ }: أي إن هذا لشيء عجيب، كما:

            “These disbelievers who say Muḥammad is a lying magician, say: ‘Does Muḥammad make all the gods one, Who hears all our supplications, and knows the worship of every worshipper who worships Him? This is surely a strange thing.’” (Tafsīr al-Ṭabari, Maktaba Hajr, 20:18)

            Ṭabarī then narrates this explanation from the great mufassir from the Tābi‘īn, Qatādah ibn Di‘āmah.

            Hence, the Mushrikūn’s perception of Allāh was nothing like the Muslim understanding of Allāh. They did not regard Allāh as All-Knowing, All-Hearing and All-Powerful.

            Based on this, it can be said the Mushrikūn did not recognise a Rabb, let alone affirm tawḥīd in rubūbiyyah. Hence, the great ṣaḥābī, Mughīrah ibn Shu‘ba (رضي الله عنه), said about their condition in Jāhiliyya:

            كُنَّا قَوْمًا نَعْبُدُ الْحِجَارَةَ وَالْأَوْثَانَ، فَإِذَا رَأَيْنَا حَجَرًا أَحْسَنَ مِنْ حَجَرٍ أَلْقَيْنَاهُ وَأَخَذْنَا غَيْرَهُ، وَلَا نَعْرِفُ رَبًّا

            “We were a people that would worship stones and statues. When we saw one stone-idol more attractive than another, we would throw it away and take that one! We did not recognise a Rabb.” (Mustadrak al-Ḥākim, Dār al-Ma‘rifah, 3:451) Al-Dhahabī says it is ṣaḥīḥ (ibid. 3:452).

            The Mushrikūn would Ascribe Powers to their False Gods/Stars

            Allāh says about the Mushrikūn:

            وَٱتَّخَذُواْ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ آلِهَةً لَّعَلَّهُمْ يُنصَرُونَ

            “They adopted gods besides Allāh so that they may be helped.” (Qur’ān, 36:74)

            In explanation of this, Ibn Kathīr says:

            يقول تعالى، منكرًا على المشركين، في اتخاذهم الأنداد آلهة مع الله، يبتغون بذلك أن تنصرهم تلك الآلهة, و ترزقهم, و تقربهم إلى الله زلفى

            “He – Exalted is He – is saying in condemnation of the Mushrikūn for adopting rivals as gods with Allāh, by which they desired that those gods will support them, provide them and bring them near to Allāh…” (Tafsīr al-Qur’ān al-‘Aẓīm, Maktaba Awlād Shaykh, 11:382)

            The Qur’ān says the Mushrikūn would threaten the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) with their idols:

            وَيُخَوِّفُونَكَ بِٱلَّذِينَ مِن دُونِهِ

            “They would threaten you with those beside Him” (39:36)

            Al-Ṭabarī explains:

            يقول تعالى ذكره لنبيه محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم: ويخوّفك هؤلاء المشركون يا محمد بالذين من دون الله من الأوثان والآلهة أن تصيبك بسوء، ببراءتك منها، وعيبك لها، والله كافيك ذلك. وبنحو الذي قلنا في ذلك قال أهل التأويل

            “He – Exalted is His Mention – states to His Prophet, Muḥammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم): These Mushrikūn threaten you, Muḥammad, with those besides Him amongst the idols and (false) gods, that they will afflict you with harm because of your disassociation from them and your criticism of them. Allāh will take care of that for you. The scholars of tafsīr said the same as what we said.” (Tafsīr al-Ṭabari, Maktaba Hajr, 20:210)

            When the ṣaḥābī, Ḍimām ibn Tha‘labah, accepted Islām at the hands of the Prophet, Ibn ‘Abbās narrates:

            ثم خرج حتى قدم على قومه فاجتمعوا إليه، فكان أول ما تكلم به أن قال: بيست اللات والعزى، قالوا: مه يا ضمام ، اتق البرص والجذام، اتق الجنون. قال: ويلكم إنهما والله لا يضران ولا ينفعان

            “Then he left until he arrived at his people, and they gathered around him. The very first thing that he said is: ‘Evil is Lāt and ‘Uzzā!’ They replied: ‘Stop, Ḍimām! Beware of baraṣ, beware of judhām [2 types of leprosy]. Beware of madness!’ He said: ‘May you be destroyed! Indeed, by Allāh, they do not harm and they do not benefit.’”

            Haythamī said: “Aḥmad and al-Ṭabrānī narrated it, and the narrators of Aḥmad have been considered trustworthy.” (Majma‘ al-Zawā’id, 1599) The editors of Musnad Aḥmad (2380) commented: “a ḥasan ḥadīth.”

            Hence, the Mushrikūn believed Lāt and ‘Uzzā could inflict punishment and cause harm.

            Abū Bakr (رضي الله عنه) freed a female slave called Zinīrah. After freeing her, she became blind. The Mushrikūn said: “Lāt and ‘Uzzā blinded her”, and according to another transmission: “Nothing but Lāt and ‘Uzzā took away her eyesight.” Zinīrah responded: “They lied…Lāt and ‘Uzzā give no benefit”, so Allāh returned her eyesight. (al-Iṣāba, Markaz Hajr, 13:413-4)

            The Mushrikūn would also believe that the stars bring down rain. They would believe the stars do this independently; hence, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) reported in a ḥadīth qudsī that Allāh says:

            أَصْبَحَ مِنْ عِبَادِي مُؤْمِنٌ بِي وَكَافِرٌ، فَأَمَّا مَنْ قَالَ: مُطِرْنَا بِفَضْلِ اللَّهِ وَرَحْمَتِهِ، فَذَلِكَ مُؤْمِنٌ بِي وَكَافِرٌ بِالكَوْكَبِ، وَأَمَّا مَنْ قَالَ: بِنَوْءِ كَذَا وَكَذَا، فَذَلِكَ كَافِرٌ بِي وَمُؤْمِنٌ بِالكَوْكَبِ

            “Some of My slaves believe in Me and others disbelieve. Those who say: ‘We were given rain by the grace and mercy of Allāh’ believe in Me and disbelieve in the stars. Those who say: ‘We were given rain by such and such a star’ disbelieve in Me and believe in the stars.” (Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī)

            Al-Khaṭṭābī comments in A‘lām al-Ḥadīth that this was the practice of the people of Jāhiliyya.

            The Mushrikūn would not only refer to their false gods as “ālihah” but would also call them “rabb.” It is narrated with an acceptable chain to the great Tābi‘ī, Abu ‘Uthmān al-Nahdī, who lived in Jāhiliyya for a long time before accepting Islām at the hands of the ṣaḥābah:

            كنا فى الجاهلية نعبد حجرا فسمعنا مناديا ينادي: يا أهل الرحال إن ربكم قد هلك، فالتمسوا ربا، فخرجنا على كل صعب وذلول، فبينا نحن كذلك، إذ سمعنا مناديا ينادي: إنا قد وجدنا ربكم

            “In Jāhiliyya, we would worship stone idols. We once heard someone call out: ‘People in the camps, your rabb is ruined, so go search for a rabb!’ We came out to every rough and smooth land. While we were so, we heard someone call out: ‘We have found your rabb!’…” (Siyar A‘lām al-Nubalā’, 4:176)

            The Mushrikūn Believed Allāh had Children and Relatives

            The Mushrikūn would believe Allāh has daughters (16:57) and the jinn were related to Allāh (37:158). This is making partners in rubūbiyya as it is affirming beings similar to, and related to, Allāh.

            Weak Confessions of Belief

            Some verses say the Mushrikūn would affirm qualities of rubūbiyyah for Allāh. For example:

            وَلَئِن سَأَلْتَهُم مَّنْ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ لَيَقُولُنَّ اللَّهُ

            “If you ask them Who created the heavens and the earth and subdued the sun and moon? They will certainly say: Allāh.” (Qur’ān, 29:61)

            However, merely affirming qualities of rubūbiyya for Allāh does not mean they would negate these qualities from those besides Allāh.

            Moreover, this proclamation of faith was something the Arab Mushrikūn inherited from their forefathers, a remnant of the legacy of their ancestor, Ibrāhīm (عليه السلام). But they had no firm belief in this. Hence, Allāh says:

            لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ يُحْيِي وَيُمِيتُ رَبُّكُمْ وَرَبُّ آبَائِكُمُ الْأَوَّلِينَ بَلْ هُمْ فِي شَكٍّ يَلْعَبُونَ

            “There is no deity but Him. He gives life and He causes death. Your Rabb and the Rabb of your forefathers. But, they are in doubt, playing.” (Qur’ān, 44:8-9)

            Qurṭubī explains

            بَلْ هُمْ فِي شَكٍّ يَلْعَبُونَ } أي ليسوا على يقين فيما يظهرونه من الإيمان والإقرار في قولهم: إن الله خالقهم؛ وإنما يقولونه لتقليد آبائهم من غير علم فهم في شك

            “Meaning, they have no certainty in what they profess of faith and admission when they say: ‘Allāh created them.’ They say it in blind imitation of their fathers without knowledge, so they are in doubt.” (al-Jāmi‘ li Aḥkām al-Qur’ān, Mu’assasat al-Risālah, 19:105)

            Ibn Kathīr also pointed out that they had no certainty in what they were saying:

            و هذا إنكار عليهم في شركهم بالله, و هم يعلمون أنه الخالق وحده لا شريك له, و لكن عدم إيقانهم هو الذي يحملهم على ذلك

            “This is a denunciation of them in associating partners with Allāh, while they know that He alone is the Creator having no partner. But their uncertainty is what drove them to this.” (Tafsīr al-Qur’ān al-‘Aẓīm, 13:239)

            Imām Abu Ḥayyan al-Andalūsī (d. 745) said in his well-known tafsīr:

            إذا سئلوا: من خلقكم وخلق السماوات والأرض؟ قالوا: الله، وهم شاكون

            “When they are asked: ‘Who created you and created the heavens and the earth?’ They say: ‘Allāh,’ but they are in doubt.” (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ, Dār al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah, 8:149)

            Such doubt is not regarded as true faith (īmān).

            “We don’t worship them but so that they bring us near to Allāh”

            In one verse of the Qur’ān, it states that the Mushrikūn would claim that “we don’t worship them but so that they bring us near to Allāh.” (Qur’ān, 39:3) The Mushrikūn would believe the idols were rivals (andād) of Allāh, and had intense love for them (Qur’ān, 2:165). They believed these idols were in such a position of authority that they could compel Allāh to act against His will. This is what the Mushrikūn meant when they said these gods are their “intercessors” with Allāh and that they “will draw them near to Allāh.” Hence, this belief was itself shirk in rubūbiyyah. They did not believe in intercession “with the permission/approval of Allāh”. Hence, Ibn Kathīr explains in the commentary of this verse that Allāh responds to the Mushrikūn in the following way:

            وأخبر أن الملائكة التي فى السماوات من المقربين وغيرهم كلهم عبيد خاضعون لله، لا يشفعون عنده إلا بإذنه، وليسوا عنده كالأمراء عند ملوكهم، يشفعون عندهم بغير إذنهم فيما أحبه الملوك و أبوه، فلا يضربوا لله الأمثال تعالى الله عن ذلك

            “Allāh explained that the angels in the skies…are all subservient slaves of Allāh, not interceding with Him but by His permission. They are not (as the Mushrikūn would believe) to Him like governors to their kings, with whom they intercede without permission, whether the kings approve or disapprove. So (O Mushrikūn ) not make comparisons of Allāh. Allāh is far beyond that.” (Tafsīr al-Qur’ān al-‘Aẓīm, 12:112)

            Nonetheless, as explained earlier, the shirk of the Mushrikūn was not limited to taking their gods as intercessors with Allāh. They would say the above statement to make their shirk more palatable (See: Tafsīr al-Biqā‘ī, 16:445), although their shirk was not limited to only this. Hence, Ibn Kathīr includes other things in their shirk, not just seeking to get closer to Allāh:

            يقول تعالى، منكرًا على المشركين، في اتخاذهم الأنداد آلهة مع الله، يبتغون بذلك أن تنصرهم تلك الآلهة, و ترزقهم, و تقربهم إلى الله زلفى

            “He – Exalted is He – is saying in condemnation of the Mushrikūn for adopting rivals as gods with Allāh, by which they desired that those gods will support them, provide them and bring them near to Allāh…” (Tafsīr al-Qur’ān al-‘Aẓīm, Maktaba Awlād Shaykh, 11:382)

            Imām Ṭabarī says the Mushrikūn would Regard their Gods as “Rabbs”

            Based on the above evidence, it is clear the Mushrikūn would regard others as rabbs besides Allāh, and affirmed qualities of rubūbiyyah for them. Al-Ṭabari has explained in several places of his Tafsīr that the Mushrikūn would regard their idols as “rabbs”, not just “ālihah.” For example, in the commentary of verse 3:26, he says:

            الأنداد التي اتخذها الأميون ربًّاً

            “The ‘rivals’ that the unlettered Arabs would regard as rabbs.” (Tafsīr al-Ṭabarī, 5:304)

            In explaining verse 17:56, he says:

            يقول تعالى ذكره لنبيه محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم: قل يا محمد لمشركي قومك، الذين يعبدون من دون الله من خلقه، ادعوا أيها القوم الذين زعمتم أنهم أرباب، وألهة من دونه، عند ضر نزل بكم، فانظروا هل يقدرون على دفع ذلك عنكم أو تحويله عنكم إلى غيركم؟

            “He – Exalted is His Mention – is saying to His Prophet Muḥammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم): Say, Muḥammad, to the Mushrikūn of your people who worship other than Allāh from His creation: O people, call those you regard as rabbs and ālihah apart from Allāh when a calamity befalls you, and see if they are able to repel that from you and turn it away from you to another.” (Tafsīr al-Ṭabarī, 14:626)

            In explanation of verse 12:106, where Allāh describes the Arabs as Mushrikūn, he says:

            وهم به مشركون في عبادتهم الأوثان والأصنام واتخاذهم من دون الله أربابا وزعمهم أن له ولد

            “They are Mushrikūn, in their worship of statues and idols, and adopting them as rabbs besides Him, and their belief that He has children..” (Tafsīr al-Ṭabarī, 13:372)


            In summary:

            1. The Mushrikūn of Arabia did not believe Allāh is All-Hearing, All-Powerful and All-Knowing

            2. They did not have full conviction (yaqīn) in the existence of Allāh or Him being the Creator and Sustainer

            3. They believed Lāt and ‘Uzzā could inflict punishment, like leprosy, madness and blindness

            4. They believed the stars could cause rain to fall

            5. They believed Allāh has daughters and that the jinn are related to Him

            6. They believed their false gods could intercede with Allāh against His will

            Conclusion: This is not a belief in Tawḥīd al-Rubūbiyyah.

            Read more:
            Last edited by faqir; 06-10-19, 09:39 AM.

            Wahhabis Refuted


            • Last edited by Abu julaybeeb; 06-10-19, 11:52 AM.


              • The graveworshippers love to misuse the quran

                Haytham Saifudeen
                sharh kashf ash shubuhaat

                , “And when it was said to them, “Protrate to Ar-Rahman”, they would say
                “And what is Ar-Rahman, shall we perform prostration to that which you command us”. And it
                increases them only in aversion.” [25:60]

                Meaning they would turn away from it even more so. So the ones who try to argue against this idea that we’re showing in the Qur’an and the Sunnah that they can’t worship anyone with Allah, and this was what
                the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم  was actually sent with to the Mushrikin to clarify, they say, no, they didn’t
                even believe in Allah to begin with, they didn’t accept Allah.

                What is your evidence? They say when Allah mentioned in this verse, that they said, “What is Ar-Rahman?”. So, their argument is they say that when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم commanded them to worship Allah, they were saying “Who is Allah?”, or “What is Allah?”. We know that Allah has many Names, and from His Names was “Ar-Rahman”, so they say they didn’t even accept Allah to begin with.
                Also, they use another verse which is similar to this, when Allah said "Thus have We sent you to a community before which [other] communities have passed on so you might recite to them that which We revealed to you, while they disbelieve in the Most
                Merciful. Say, "He is my Lord; there is no deity except Him. Upon Him I rely, and to Him is my
                return.” [13:30]

                So, they say this is another verse that shows they disbelieved in Allah to begin with. They didn’t even accept the existence or the Lordship of Allah, it had nothing to do with worshipping someone other than Allah, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was sent to inform them about Allah to begin with.
                So, they mention these two verses, but if we look at these verses and the context in which it was revealed. 

                we look at some of the incidences that took place during the lifetime of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم ,we see that what is meant in these Ayat, isn’t what these people claim that these Ayat mean.
                So, first of all when they said, “What is Ar-Rahman?”, if we look to the treaty ofHudaybiyyah in which the
                Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم wrote a contract with the kuffar, we see that in this hadith, that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم commanded ‘Ali رضى الله عنه  to write down, “Bismillahi al-Rahmani al-Rahim”, on the
                contract. At this point, Suhail, who was from the kuffar of Quraysh said, “What is Ar-Rahman?, we do not know what Ar-Rahman is, but instead write the name of Allah”. So, we see here that this Ayah isn’t referring to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم  coming to teach them Allah exists, it’s referring to the kuffar rejecting one of the Names of Allah. So, this argument is a completely invalid argument, and even more so, if we look at the evidences that were mentioned last week, when they
                used to say “Labayk Allahumma Labayk”, they’re clearly believing in the existence of Allah, and they’re even worshipping Him, but then they would add acts of Shirk to it. Another evidence that they try to use is the verse in which Allah said,

                Which translates as, “And the thunder exalts [Allah] with praise of Him - and the angels [as well]from fear of Him - and He sends thunderbolts and strikes therewith whom He wills while they
                dispute about Allah ; and He is severe in assault.” [13:13] So, they say here that, Allah  سبحانه و تعالى mentioned here that, they actually dispute the existence of Allah to begin with, so they argue that, “you claim that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم  (fought Quraysh and called them to Islam”, it wasn’t because they were performing Shirk, it wasn’t because they were worshipping a Prophet, or it wasn’t because they were worshipping their elders or their ancestors, and it wasn’t because they were worshipping At-Lat and Uzza, it was because they didn’t accept Allah to begin with. So, they say the evidence is, “They are disputing about Allah.” So, they say this is evidence enough to prove this point. There’s a number of ways to reply to this. First of all, we know that the name of Allah comes from “Ilah”, which is The One that is Worshipped, so their disputing the worship of Allah, they’re not disputing the existence of Allah. Secondly, the beginning of the verse is talking about worship, “the thunder praises and glorifies Allah”, this is an act of worship, “as do the Angels due to awe” . So, Allah here is mentioning that these creations, so the thunder which is from Allah’s creation and the Angels, which arefrom Allah’s creation, they’re worshipping Allah, due to their knowledge of the power and the awesomeness, and the awe of Allah, but the kuffar are disputing this. So, it’s not that they are disputing the existence of Allah, they’re disputing the worshipping Allah Alone. Plus, if we look at the fact that they used to accept Allah, and they used to worship Him, and they used to perform
                these actions, then really in the end, this argument is a baseless argument, and it’s quite ridiculous in the
                end if we look at it in the context of all the other evidences.

                “Nor would he order you to take the Angels and Prophets as Lords.” [3:80] So, meaning that the Prophet  صلى الله عليه وسلم wouldn’t come to the people and order them to take the
                Angels and the Prophets as Lords. Allah is saying here that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn’t come to
                teach the people to take these things as Lords, on the contrary, he was coming to teach the people to take
                Allah as their Lord. So, if we look at this again, what’s mean by “Ar-bab” here or “Lords” is, Gods. Allah
                sent the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to take the people worshipping other things, to worshipping Allah, not
                that he came to teach the people to accept the existence of Allah, or to take Him as their Lord.
                Likewise, if we look at it the context in which this verse in the Qur’an was revealed, there’s actually a story behind it. So, the story for this is that there was a group of the kuffar, specifically they’re Christians from Najran, and they came to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم  and he called them to  Islam, so their response was, “Do you want us to worship you?”, so they’re asking is it you that you’re wanting us to worship, so Allah revealed this verse. So, we see from this verse, that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was being asked, should we worship you, so Allah revealed this verse explaining that it would be
                impossible that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم would come with Islam then call people to worship

                So, if we look at this, we can see that, of all the creation, we know that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم the  best of creation, he’s the best of the humans, he’s better than any of the creation of Allah, so if there was going to be a creation to worship which would be the most logical, even though it’s not logical, but if it’s not accepted to worship the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم than how about a Prophet that isn’t at his status, and how about on top of that, someone who isn’t a Prophet, he’s only a righteous person, and if he’s not a righteous person, he’s a fasiq, and how about if he’s not a fasiq only, he’s not even a Muslim.
                So, if it’s unacceptable to worship the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and to perform du’a to him, and to perform
                oaths based upon him or oaths to him, and to slaughter things on his behalf, all these things are
                unacceptable for him, then doing it for your Shaykh, or your Sayyid or your Imam, or doing it for a Prophet or anything else would be even more unacceptable.
                So, this verse that, they try to use to say that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم diidn’t dispute with the
                Mushrikin about Tawhid of worship, it was about the existence of Allah that this would be completely
                unacceptable. And they use a number of other Ayat, which are again very weak in their argument. For
                example, they mention that Allah said,
                 “Most of them don’t believe in Allah, except that they are Mushrikun”. [12:106] So, they say that here that most of them didn’t believe in Allah. But if we look at this in the context, Allah is saying, most of them didn’t believe in Allah, except that they added to this, acts of Shirk. So, again this is something that is exactly what we’re saying, if someone worships Allah, or believes in Allah, then they perform an act of Shirk with it, it makes their claim invalid. And I’ll stop there in regards to mentioning the Ayat that they use, but I just want to add a bit more as to the reason for this.
                So, what is the big deal if someone claims that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم came to teach
                Quraysh that Allah exists, or that he came to teach the Quraysh that Allah is the Creator. What’s
                the problem if we say this?
                We would say that the problem with this is, first of all it’s not reality, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn’t
                come to Quraysh to tell them Allah exists, this was something that was well established amongst them, they knew Allah exists.



                • JazakAllahu khayr for the post OP. May Allah reward you for bringing quotes, valid sources and arguments instead of namecalling.


                  • 84 pages and 0 refutations by the opponents of the OP. Instead I only read diversions and other topics. :/


                    • This is the wisdom of the major scholars. May Allah grant shaykh Shaheed Ramadan al Bouti the highest level of Jannah. Ameen


                      • Saudi Royal Family is the Islamic Royal Family and they are wahabi. What exactly was the point in the first post of this thread?


                        • Originally posted by Logic View Post
                          84 pages and 0 refutations by the opponents of the OP. Instead I only read diversions and other topics. :/
                          ISIS and their ilk are the true followers of Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab.


                          • ISIS is a Jihadi organization of Quranites who are shia while Abdul Wahab was a sunni. Seems a lack of Islamic understanding.


                            • Originally posted by faqir View Post

                              Salam alaykum.

                              Finally I meet Faqir. I been wondering who you was for about 8 years.


                              • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                                Salam alaykum brother Abu Sulayman. I hope I am not late here.

                                I need your help with regards to finding Tafsir refference. Quite while back, on IslamicAwakening forum, in one of threads during our discussion with Wahhabis, I employed Hadith Satan has despaired he will not be worshipped by worshippers in Arabian Peninsula. I interprted the Hadith to mean Satan has despaired idols will not be worshipped in Arabian Peninsula. Even though I did provide supporting evidence from Quran why Satan worship means idol worship: (The Mushrikeen) leaving Him (i.e. Allah) call but upon (i.e. yad'una) goddesses: They call but upon satan the persistent rebel!” [Ref: 4:117] This interpretation was challenged and you then quoted scholarly Tafsir refferrence in support my interpretation. Unfortunately the forum was closed before I could save the refference. And now I am in need of that very same refference. If you could help it would be great. Jazakallah khayr.

                                Muhammed Ali Razavi aka SkippedPath of IslamicAwakening.



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