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The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

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  • Know that even that criminal al-Maliki - may Allah ta'ala give him what he deserves! - used ISI in 2014 (which had mutated into ISIL at that time) for his own goals! He himself told his soldiers to leave Mosul to a small number of ISIL fighters (and this is something that everyone in 'Iraq knows!) and this was in order to stop the protests against oppression in the Sunni regions and in order to be able to bomb the 'Iraqi Sunni cities later on and make demographic changes! And this is exactley what happened later on.

    Today we have an 'Iraq where the North is almost ruled independetely of the rest and where the people have not received their full salaries since 2014 (this month they're receiving it for the first time fully again!), the regions in the middle have been heavily bombarded and many people can still not return to their homes and many regions in the South (especially Basra) have not even clean water or electricity.

    And then some youngsters living in the West - who basically have no idea of classical Islam whatsoever!!! - are trying to tell us how great these "Salafi" groups are. We ask Allah ta'ala for well-being!
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 16-03-19, 02:27 PM.

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    • Originally posted by savo234 View Post

      Have you even read Tarikh al Najd by Ibn Ghannam, you have no idea of what you are talking about. The Najdis have made takfir of Ottomans and not just Ottomans, they made takfir of anyone who did'nt make takfir of Ottomans. They made takfir of people of Huraymila led by Sulayman Ibn Abdul Wahhab who merely DISAGREED on takfir and were not themselves involved in any of bidah. If that is not extremism then I do not know what extremism is.

      These "aimah" clearly followed kharijite path. Infact in Tarikh al Najd, Ibn Ghannam always refers to his jamah as THE MUSLIMEEN and opposition as MURTADEEN/MUSHRIKEEN. This was the path of ISIS khwarij who made takfir of every sunni group in Shaam, called their own group THE JAMAH of MUSLIMEEN .

      Unless you have same beliefs as these dwaish, there is no way someone can justify gross stuff like that.

      How about you people have some wala towards thousands of muslims from the Ummah of Muhammad(sa) who were butchered by the likes of GIA in Algeria, ISIS in Syria and Iraq ? How about you have some wala for the people of Huraymila who were takfir'ed by MIAW ?

      Plus you clearly avoided the quote of ABU QATADAH who himself has been on the edge..... Even he admitted ghulu among Najdis....Syrian Salafi Jihadis and founders of Ahrar al Sham like Abu Yazn al Shami called out this Najdi manhaj for what it is.
      no i havent read it
      but i will now that u said it

      however if they made takfir due to it being a clear matter like huraymila not making takfir on grave worshippers than that is fine or if the hujjah was established on huraymila then they can make takfir as huraymila would be doing kufr juhood due to knoeing the information after hujjah and still rejecting the texts and not making takfir
      thats not ghulu

      idc what qatada says
      and u talk about some random guy thay completely fell off his own manhaj
      Last edited by Abu julaybeeb; 16-03-19, 02:42 PM.

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      • and the gia had military who went undercover pretending to be mujahideen who then started killimg people to make gia look bad

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        • Originally posted by savo234 View Post

          Abu Sulayman, I am open to investigate this thing without bias but have you read this book on Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab by Jalal Abu alRub called "Biography and mission of Muhammad ibn Abdul wahab" ?
          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 16-03-19, 04:45 PM.

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          • Abu julaybeeb, who told you that anything you say is from the Musallamat?!
            Who told you that Istighatha is a justified ground for Takfir in the first place?
            And: What will you do about Tashaffu', which is explicitly allowed by the scholars of ALL 4 Madhahib? Your Najdi forefathers killed people because of this position!!

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            • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
              Abu julaybeeb, who told you that anything you say is from the Musallamat?!
              Who told you that Istighatha is a justified ground for Takfir in the first place?
              And: What will you do about Tashaffu', which is explicitly allowed by the scholars of ALL 4 Madhahib? Your Najdi forefathers killed people because of this position!!
              i dont want to hear from your ashari beliefs

              istigatha to the dead is the same as what kuffar of quraysh did
              Allah said invoke me
              not invoke others

              this is shirk akbar
              just because another alim permitted it or said its haram or biddah doesnt mean hes correct and doesnt mean im obliged to follow him

              Last edited by Abu julaybeeb; 16-03-19, 05:07 PM.

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              • are u ashari/matureedi savo234

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                • and even with their works its very complicated
                  and its not just about following the dhaahir of the text
                  that is why there are ghulaat today like hazimis
                  doing chain takfir

                  if books like durar as saniyya were gone through with shuyookh instead of independently where misinterpretations occur then it would be a different story

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                  • Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
                    are u ashari/matureedi savo234
                    No I am not. The fact that you just justified takfiring the people of huraymila for not making takfir of whom you call grave worshippers just completely blows my mind. Infact the main salafi inclined scholars like Abdul Aziz al Turaifi, Dedew etc are very clear in stating that this kind of chain takfir is baatil. There is now no doubt in my mind that this is the mindset of khwarij.

                    I never agreed with this takfiri manhaj however I previously thought that MIAW was'nt that bad but reading the najdi books convinced me that he is infact as khariji as ISIS of today.

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                    • Originally posted by savo234 View Post

                      No I am not. The fact that you just justified takfiring the people of huraymila for not making takfir of whom you call grave worshippers just completely blows my mind. Infact the main salafi inclined scholars like Abdul Aziz al Turaifi, Dedew etc are very clear in stating that this kind of chain takfir is baatil. There is now no doubt in my mind that this is the mindset of khwarij.

                      I never agreed with this takfiri manhaj however I previously thought that MIAW was'nt that bad but reading the najdi books convinced me that he is infact as khariji as ISIS of today.


                      how can u not make takfir on someone that commits clear cut shirk or exscuses shirk even after knowing its shirk

                      thats not chain takfir

                      chain takfir is when someone commits shirk ie grave worship then the aathir doesnt make takfir on the grave worshipper then the mutawaqiff (exscuser of the aathir) doesnt make takfir on the aathir
                      so you make takfir on the aathir and the mutawaqiff and the chain goes on whoever exscuses the mutawaqiff

                      (this is ghulu ^)
                      and i dont agree with this
                      in actuality the mutawaqiff is called a mubtadi3 not kaafir
                      and this issue occured in the time of the salaf
                      a mutazili sect was doing chain takfir and even takfiring the mutawaqiff and so on
                      another mutazili sect came and corrected them and said the mutawaqiff is a mubtadi3 not a kaafir
                      you can refer to shaykh ali al khudair who talked about this
                      it can be in his kitab al haqaaiq if iirc

                      i didnt justify anything i dont even know about the situation


                      all i said was if it is masaail dhaahiria a clear open apparent matter of shirk the guy is worshipping a grave

                      and a person exscuses him then this is kufr and he is made takfir on and in some cases when the matter is unclear then there is a need of hujjah before takfir
                      if they still dont make takfir after the hujjah after knowing this is shirk and it is wrong then they are made takfir on for rejecting the text
                      kufr juhood
                      thats not chain takfir
                      chain is if it goes on and on

                      all these salafi scholars differ in aqeedah
                      youl see maqdisi, qatada , dewdew, tarifi, fawzaan,albani, bin baz,uthaymeen, muqbil etc all differ in aqeedah

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                      • Thats a main argument against khwarij of all times. Their predecessors did not have a single sahabi supporting them. ISIS does not have a single scholar of repute supporting them. The same argument is valid for MIAW and his movement. None of the scholar of his time approved of him. Its not just these scholars, I even read quotes of students of IMAM AL SHAWKANI who called MIAW khariji.

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                        • u call people khawarij
                          but the prophet صلي الله عليه وسلم said he would kill them like the people of aad
                          iirc

                          are you trying to make peoples blood halal and saying they should be killed

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                          • and if he was such a bad scholar
                            why did Allah allow his work to spread across the world for over 2 centuries now

                            dont say its because of al saud
                            because miaws work goes against them
                            ie they are to be made takfir on for being tawagheet

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                            • Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post



                              how can u not make takfir on someone that commits clear cut shirk or exscuses shirk even after knowing its shirk

                              thats not chain takfir


                              You must make takfir of all the classical scholars of all 4 madhahib then !

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                              • Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
                                u call people khawarij
                                but the prophet صلي الله عليه وسلم said he would kill them like the people of aad
                                iirc

                                are you trying to make peoples blood halal and saying they should be killed
                                I do not deem salafis khwarij. I claim that MIAW, original Najdis were khwarij. If I was living in their times, I would be on the manhaj of Sulayman Ibn Abdul Wahhab(rh) i.e I would have fought them.

                                Now as for today, I think most salafis differ from MIAW's pure manhaj so they do not get the hukm of khwawrij even if they admire MIAW. Infact some of these scholars, I respect.

                                However ISIS does represent views of MIAW and original najdi movement. I do consider them khwarij and I do think that these people should be killed like the people of Aad. If they are ideological and not active then we dont care however when they form a group like ISIS did and start perpetrating violence against muslims and takfiring them then they should be dealt with like the people of Aad and the people of Nahrawan.

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