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The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

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  • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    ...How about I tell you some details of the great things your "Salafi" brothers did in my country in the last 15 years and how their actions served the American invaders and their allies?!...
    Americans such as Hisham Kabbani and his Naqshbandi cult?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

      Americans such as Hisham Kabbani and his Naqshbandi cult?
      Careful, they're watching you....
      Attached Files
      "When a man sees the road as long he weakens in his walk." Ibn Qayyim

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Musbah View Post

        Careful, they're watching you....
        And we‘re still waiting for an intelligent post by the "Salafi" fanboys.

        Note how you run away from whatever has been posted regarding the early Najdis, your so called "scholars" and the militant "Salafi" groups. You‘re unable to answer a single statement that I made regarding them, because you know that I can prove my statements while you can‘t.
        That‘s why you‘re hell-bent on changing the subject and behaving like a worthless fanboy.

        As for the picture of the person you posted:
        I have basically no informations about him (other than his name) nor do I have any connection to him, so what‘s the point?
        Making fun of me by posting random things which are not connected to me?

        What I‘ve noticed is that when "Salafis" are feeling that they‘re loosing a discussion they will almost always resort to using dishonest tactics. One of them is to mention someone who may have deviant views / actions but claims to follow classical Islam and then to start to act as if one is connected to this person. They usually then try to act as if everybody who ascribes himself to classical Islam is like that.

        What they forget is that when we mention "classical Islam" what is intended here is the way that the classical scholars had been upon. To reject "classical Islam" with this meaning is to reject the Ahl al-Sunnah!


        Comment


        • Originally posted by Musbah View Post
          Aaaannnnndddd still waiting for that "pristine" aqeedah book that your sidekick was asked to give. I told you that you won't get an apology from me. There are better and more productive things to do than to argue with the fools who have an unhealthy fetish and slander against the scholars of Islam. So you are either directly or indirectly working with the enemies of Islam. But you are not smart enough to directly work for them but only parrot what has been taught to you so that leaves you to be just a dupe without knowing it. Well, not until now.....
          Of course you‘all not apologize. You have to be a man first in order to do that, but you‘re unfortunately only a fanboy without any sense of shame.
          I really don‘t understand it how one can make a huge accusation (read: lie!) and thereafter act so bold.

          You‘re waiting for what exactly? You asked this question to another brother in another thread.
          Other than that: Look at the subject of this thread and don‘t try to change the subject. Why is it that you ignore whatever is being said?
          I mean it‘s not like I ascribed some minor issues to the Najdis and the "Salafi" "scholars“.
          Why is that you have no courage to reply to any of my statements?

          But let me answer the question instead of that brother you were asking, because unlike you we‘re proud Sunnis and openly tell whatever we believe:
          'Aqida books that we regard as good and correct are works like al-Tahawiyya, al-Iqtisad fil I'tiqad, al-Nasafiyya, Umm al-Barahin, Jawharat al-Tawhid, etc.

          Before you make any idiotic comment: The heroes of this Umma like Sultan Salah al-Din and Muhammad al-Fatih where also upon the beliefs mentioned in the above works.
          Calling to these beliefs is hardly serving the disbelievers, rather the opposite.

          The Muslims who will re-open al-Quds al-Sharif will without any doubt be upon the beliefs of the likes of Sultan Salah al-Din.
          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 28-01-19, 07:16 PM.

          Comment


          • As for the claim of "slandering the scholars of Islam":
            The scholars of Islam are the classical scholars and not your Dajjal of Najd, who accused the scholars of Islam of polytheism!

            Before you dare to call that Dajjal of Najd a "scholar“ again tell us why he was rejected by all of his teachers? Why is it that the scholars of Islam in his time in general rejected him? Why is it that he had not a single permission to teach any Islamic science?!

            You‘ll obviously not be able to answer any of my questions.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

              And we‘re still waiting for an intelligent post by the "Salafi" fanboys.

              Note how you run away from whatever has been posted regarding the early Najdis, your so called "scholars" and the militant "Salafi" groups. You‘re unable to answer a single statement that I made regarding them, because you know that I can prove my statements while you can‘t.
              That‘s why you‘re hell-bent on changing the subject and behaving like a worthless fanboy.

              As for the picture of the person you posted:
              I have basically no informations about him (other than his name) nor do I have any connection to him, so what‘s the point?
              Making fun of me by posting random things which are not connected to me?

              What I‘ve noticed is that when "Salafis" are feeling that they‘re loosing a discussion they will almost always resort to using dishonest tactics. One of them is to mention someone who may have deviant views / actions but claims to follow classical Islam and then to start to act as if one is connected to this person. They usually then try to act as if everybody who ascribes himself to classical Islam is like that.

              What they forget is that when we mention "classical Islam" what is intended here is the way that the classical scholars had been upon. To reject "classical Islam" with this meaning is to reject the Ahl al-Sunnah!

              There are already 74 pages of debate and debunk of your positions. So why continue with this. It has been exhausted.
              "When a man sees the road as long he weakens in his walk." Ibn Qayyim

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Musbah View Post

                There are already 74 pages of debate and debunk of your positions. So why continue with this. It has been exhausted.
                Ohh, really?
                Go and read some of the pages. Almost all of the posts are meaningless fanboy posts - like yours - without a single reply to my points.

                After 74 pages not a single one of you could refute the fact that the early Najdis committed mass-killings. Not a single one of you could deny that your so called "scholars" ascribe to views which have been called as disbelief by consensus by Ash‘aris and Hanbalis. Disbelief by consensus! Do you understand what that means? What a worthless sect you are.

                Anyways there is no point in resuming discussing with you. You‘re unable to reply to my point anyways and lack knowledge and are just being a fanboy.
                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 28-01-19, 08:37 PM.

                Comment


                • Abu Sulayman has me on ignore.

                  :*-(

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                    Abu Sulayman has me on ignore.

                    :*-(
                    Lucky you.
                    "When a man sees the road as long he weakens in his walk." Ibn Qayyim

                    Comment


                    • Once again the mujahideen are singled out for scathing criticism while the tawaghit, most definitely upon extreme batil, either get a free pass or even if criticsed the approach is much softer.

                      Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                      As for the militant "Salafi" groups:

                      - They‘re trying to follow the footsteps of the early Najdis by waging wars first and foremost against other Muslims (be they pious or deviant ones!).
                      Completely wrong. Mujahideen are first and foremost fighting against kufr while these muslims of yours have wilfully stepped in as first line of defence of kufr. This is like throwing yourself in front of a speeding bus then blaming the driver for running over you. They only have themselves to blame.

                      These "muslims" have illegally imprisoned, tortured and murdered thousands of muslims to satisy wishes of their kafir masters. Some of these kafir collaborators have literally captured and sold muslims to kuffar. They aid the disbelievers against muslims. They legislate kufr. They fight and murder muslims to replace shariah with kufr. They cannot be excused and mujahideen are absolute right to strike them at any time and anywhere and any way they can.

                      U.S. is an open enemy, correct? but the very criminals they have trained and funded precisely to solidify kufr rule and serve their interest in muslim lands are being fought only by Salafi mujahideen but you think the same mujahideen are not only wrong but also serving U.S. interests by literally fighting against their pawn? This is crazy unfair. It's evident enough all you want is to malign Salafis in any shape or form you possibly can even if you have to be dishonest and deceptive.

                      Meanwhile what have sufis contributed to? What is their role in Jihad? Who are your leaders and Ulema that I can stand behind? What sacrifices have they made in their struggle against kufr? I don't want to know what they did 100 years ago. I'm only concerned about today.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Pakisaurus View Post
                        Once again the mujahideen are singled out for scathing criticism while the tawaghit, most definitely upon extreme batil, either get a free pass or even if criticsed the approach is much softer.



                        Completely wrong. Mujahideen are first and foremost fighting against kufr while these muslims of yours have wilfully stepped in as first line of defence of kufr. This is like throwing yourself in front of a speeding bus then blaming the driver for running over you. They only have themselves to blame.

                        These "muslims" have illegally imprisoned, tortured and murdered thousands of muslims to satisy wishes of their kafir masters. Some of these kafir collaborators have literally captured and sold muslims to kuffar. They aid the disbelievers against muslims. They legislate kufr. They fight and murder muslims to replace shariah with kufr. They cannot be excused and mujahideen are absolute right to strike them at any time and anywhere and any way they can.

                        U.S. is an open enemy, correct? but the very criminals they have trained and funded precisely to solidify kufr rule and serve their interest in muslim lands are being fought only by Salafi mujahideen but you think the same mujahideen are not only wrong but also serving U.S. interests by literally fighting against their pawn? This is crazy unfair. It's evident enough all you want is to malign Salafis in any shape or form you possibly can even if you have to be dishonest and deceptive.

                        Meanwhile what have sufis contributed to? What is their role in Jihad? Who are your leaders and Ulema that I can stand behind? What sacrifices have they made in their struggle against kufr? I don't want to know what they did 100 years ago. I'm only concerned about today.
                        Brother you may not expect that, but when I was younger and still living in the West I used to think very much like you.
                        My way of thinking changed however when I looked at the reality of what is going on in our countries and when I started reading Najdi literature (which is full of unjustified Takfir and bloodshed especially against the Ahl al-Sunnah!) and the books of belief that the Mashayikh of the "Salafis" regard as great (they‘re filled with clear Tashbih and Kufr!).


                        Before I resume I would like to tell you that I‘m in no way trying to protect those who are working for American or Zionist interests in our countries and that I view these people as traitors and hypocrites.
                        This however does not justify the crimes committed by militant "Salafi" groups.

                        Do not be fooled by their slogans and claims. Everyone can claim to follow the truth and to be fighting for it, but what is important is to look at the reality of these claims.
                        Just because they take up arms against governments this does not mean they‘re upon the truth or that what they‘re doing is justified otherwise the Khawarij of the past would have been regarding as the people of truth.



                        - Let‘s first speak about the issue of rebelling against the governments in our countries:
                        It‘s correct that the governments in our countries are not Islamic anymore (it should be however noted here that other than the time of the rightly guided Khulafa` all Islamic empires had unislamic elements in them). The issue of rebelling against them however is based upon whether one is able to form a system or government that is nearer to justice and Islam or not. If rebelling against the government leads to complete chaos and bloodshed among Muslims and more corruption and evil than before than it‘s obviously not allowed to rebell.
                        The best example for that is what happened during the so called "Arab spring" - which by the way was orchestrated by the Americans! - where the result was worse than before.
                        Just look what happened to Syria: Thousands upon thousands of people were tortured, terrorized, killed, turned into refugees and lost whatever they had. And these crimes were not just committed by the regime, but also by those who claim to be fighting against them (which includes a lot of militant "Salafi" groups). Who benefitted from all this? The Americans and the Zionists. Now there is even a quite great risk for Syria to be splitted up into several mini-states, which is exactly what the Zionists with their Yinon Plan wanted!


                        - The next issue is that of ruling by the divine law:
                        The divine law is not just about Hudud as militant "Salafi" groups believe, but rather a complete system in order to preserve religion, life, intellect, lineage and property.
                        How is it possible that this is done by ignorant over-zealous youngsters who have taken up arms and would not even listen to their own parents? To be able to run a state you need experts in all important positions of the state. What you also need is learned judges who have systematically studied Islamic law.
                        This can‘t be done by ignorant youngsters, who themselves have no idea what real Islam is.
                        Let‘s be serious and just think who the "intellectual" leaders of these militant groups are: People like Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi, Abu Qatada al-Falastini and some others. Compare their knowledge with anyone who has studied classical Islam in a serious and systematic way and you‘ll see that their knowledge is nothing compared to people who have studied systematically!


                        - The next issue is that of implementing justice which is the foundation of the divine law:
                        The people who grow up in the West have actually no idea how much injustice and corruption there is in our countries. You'll see that in order to get employed or to get a higher position you’ll have to belong to the so and so political party or the so and so family. Then you'll see that a lot of people demand bribes either for doing their own job and duty or in order to do illegal things. So many things are done without any system or intellect. There are many such issues where the West is actually a lot better than our countries.
                        And this corruption is not something done only by the governments but rather by many people in our countries. Some of them even pray and fast, but still do these things. Do not think that these governments came out of nowhere. Many people in our countries deserve these corrupt governments!
                        These "Salafi" militant groups have the same corrupt mentality and many of their members have a criminal past anyways, so they are oblivious to what it means to be just.


                        - The next important issue is that replacing one type of disbelief by another one is like doing nothing.
                        The scholars of the "Salafis" are guilty of having beliefs which the classical scholars have regarded to be disbelief by consensus, so their state is that of the scholars of the Rafidha. What is the benefit of replacing one type of disbelief by another?! At the end of the day both is disbelief and both can lead to never-ending punishment in the hereafter.

                        - The next issue is that not everyone in the government in our countries is evil or corrupt. Is it fair to judge him in the same manner like the traitors and hypocrites?
                        Then: How is it correct to apply this ruling to all police officers, soldiers, judges and governmental employees and to act as if the rulings of Islam do no apply to them and that killing them is no problem?!?


                        - The last point that I want to make is among the most important ones: How for God‘s sake is it allowed to blow up markets, funerals, crowded places, busses and even mosques?!
                        Before you claim that they don‘t do these crimes, then let me tell you that they’ve done all of that AND MORE in 'Iraq. This is something established against them beyond any doubt and sometimes they even themselves acknowledged that they've done these attacks. These acts are nothing but satanic crimes!

                        In Yaman there was even an incident where a militant "Salafi“ went inside a hospital and started killing randomly people (doctors, nurses and patients!) and this was all recorded, so that al-Qa'ida couldn’t deny that one of their men committed it. They then released a video with a lame excuse saying "we didn’t tell him to do that". If they first need to tell their fighters that it‘s not allowed to kill random civilians (Muslims in this case!), then I do not know what religion these people follow.

                        It‘s not like these militant groups have done this once or twice. They‘ve killed and wounded innocent people on a regular basis!
                        Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 31-01-19, 03:11 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Now let‘s come to the issue of the "Salafis" serving unknowingly the interests of the disbelievers:

                          - The first reason applies basically to almost all types of "Salafis" and that is the disunity and hatred that they‘ve caused among the Muslims.
                          When "Salafis" hear the words "Shirk" or "Mushrikin" the first people they think off are other Muslims. This is the sad state they've reached where their greatest enemies are the Muslims themselves.
                          Know that this amount of disunity and hatred was not present among Muslims before the "Salafis" came into existance.



                          - The second reason applies more to the militant "Salafi“ groups and that is that America uses these groups - without their members realising that! - in order to justify their presence in the Middle East and also in order to destroy any justified struggle against them (Americans).
                          One just should ask oneself where these groups get all that equipment and weapons?!

                          An example for the first statement would be Syria:
                          America and its allies justified their presence in Syria based upon the existance of ISIS and the crimes they commit, even though America itself planned this so called "revolution" (read: causing complete chaos and civil war!) in Syria.
                          The ironic thing here is that basically all sides that are in the Syrian war are committing crimes no matter whether it‘s the regime, the shi'a militias, the non-ISIS "Salafi" groups, Iran, Russia or America itself.
                          Groups like ISIS - who boast with their inhumanity and ugly crimes! - are needed for the West so that they can use them as a justification to stay in our countries.


                          An example for my second statement (i.e. that America uses these "Salafi" militants to destroy any justified struggle against America and the West) would be 'Iraq.

                          This will be inshallah explained more in detail in the following post.
                          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 31-01-19, 04:45 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                            Brother you may not expect that, but when I was younger and still living in the West I used to think very much like you.
                            My way of thinking changed however when I looked at the reality of what is going on in our countries and when I started reading Najdi literature (which is full of unjustified Takfir and bloodshed especially against the Ahl al-Sunnah!) and the books of belief that the Mashayikh of the "Salafis" regard as great (they‘re filled with clear Tashbih and Kufr!).
                            Look brother, my younger self would have shared many of your views too but things change with time. We learn things we did not know before and we change our views accordingly.

                            Everyone has faults and even though mujahideen are the best of people from this ummah they will not be free from error. Some are better than others. Some make minor mistakes and some may have potentially committed crimes (as defined by Islamic law) but in most cases they get accused of crimes by ignorant people or munafiqeen even though their actions are not at all criminal. The thing is all of these are secondary issues and the primary issue is the grip of kufr in our lands and there is no doubt whatsoever that they are upon haqq in this matter and if the Sufis think they can do a better job they are free to lead. I still want to know about righteous Sufi ulema and sufi leaders of today.

                            Everything in your post we've heard it millions of times before and these accusations of serving the kuffar, fooling the people with slogans they're all simply untrue. Actually if you want to serve kuffar you'd do opposite of what mujahideen are doing.

                            Now how on earth can you compare rebellion of deviant khawarij against Ali R.A. to the fight of mujahideen against these illegitimate governments of today? They are nothing alike.

                            You say mujahideen believe shariah is all about hudud. I'm not aware of anyone having said such a thing but even simply implementing the hudod would make them miles better than the current kufr governments so I don't see the point here?

                            We know who is serving America. We know who gets money from America. We know who gets weapons from America. We know for what purpose America gives them money and weapons. We know who those weapons and money is used against. It's all out in the open but knowing all this mujahideen are still serving kuffar? I think I've killed a few brain cells trying to figure this out. If mujahideen were to annihilate kuffar you will still see that as an example of mujahideen serving kuffar.

                            With your mindset it's not possible to continue a discussion that will end on a positive note. May Allah guide all of us and keep mujahideen steadfast against external and internal enemies.

                            Comment


                            • Ameen!
                              "When a man sees the road as long he weakens in his walk." Ibn Qayyim

                              Comment


                              • Classic thread exposing the violent history of wahabis.

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