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The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

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  • Originally posted by faqir View Post

    Dear brothers Abu Julaybee and eesa the kiwi - I suggest you take the discussion about Imam al-Ash'ari / al-Ibanah and Ghazali's Iljam into a separate thread as it is not the concern of this thread. I am almost certain though that neither of you have read either of the two books.
    Translated: I don't wish to accept Imams al-Ashari or Ghazali's turn to the manhaj of the salaf at the end of their lives and choose to perceive them according to my whims and desires.
    Last edited by Musbah; 08-01-19, 07:04 PM.
    "When a man sees the road as long he weakens in his walk." Ibn Qayyim

    Comment


    • Since I‘m quite busy, I‘m not answering some of the on-topic statements yet.

      It should be however noted that this thread is about the unjustified Takfir and bloodshed that was done by the original Najdi / Wahhabi movement.
      I have mentioned that quite many times in this thread.
      So asking off-topic questions and then acting as if that is the actual issue is something that goes against the etiquettes of a honest discussion.

      Other than that: The amount of ignorance and even outright idiocy in some of the posts of the opponents is really disturbing.
      It‘s not like anyone of you here are in a position to point at the Sada al-Asha'ira - may Allah have mercy upon them all -, while none of you have done even 1 % of what they have done for this religion. You people are not even worth the dust under their feet, so be careful how you speak regarding them!

      And: None of you is qualified to have a discussion regarding these type of issues that you mention.
      I ask you: Do you know the difference between Sifat Ma'ani (meanings that subsist in the divine essence) and Sifat 'Ayniyya (tangible attributes which can be physically pointed at)? Do you know what it means to claim that God is a Mahall for Hawadith (i.e. that the divine essence goes from one state to another) or that he‘s described by Sifat 'Ayniyya? Do you know that your own Ibn Taymiyya admitted that Imam al-Ash'ari did not ascribe God with Sifat 'Ayniyya and also that God is not subject to changes? Do you know that this is clear from Imam al-Ash'ari's book Maqalat al-Islamiyyin that your sect thinks is in accordance with their creed?
      Do you know that the one saying that God is described with tangible attributes and that he’s subject to changes (Ibn Taymiyya and the "Salafi" scholars believe in that) has committed disbelief by consensus? Do you know that this is mentioned by Ash'ari AND Hanbali scholars before and after Ibn Taymiyya and that there is no difference regarding that between the Sunni scholars in general?
      Do you know what it means to claim that the world is eternal by its kind (as claimed by Ibn Taymiyya)? Do you know that this is another issue which is disbelief by consensus?
      Do you know what it means to claim that hellfire is not forever (this was claimed by Ibn Qayyim explicitly and he mentioned that this was also the position of his teacher Ibn Taymiyya towards the end of his life) or to act as if difference of opinion is allowed regarding this issue (as Ibn Abil 'Izz tried)? It‘s yet another issue where there is consensus regarding it being disbelief! Ibn Hazm even mentions a consensus regarding making Takfir upon the one believing this!

      So when your sect is on the verge of Zandaqa and Ridda (which is why I said that your ruling is like that of the Rafidha!), do you really think you are in a position to point at the giants of Islam?
      Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 08-01-19, 07:47 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Musbah View Post

        Translated: I don't wish to accept Imams al-Ashari or Ghazali's turn to the manhaj of the salaf at the end of their lives and choose to perceive them according to my whims and desires.
        We still wait for an apology for the lie you made regarding the website wahhabisrefuted! Don‘t forget that!

        By the way: Your evil sect has nothing to do with the Salaf al-salih. Your chain of knowledge stops at the Sanad-less and Ijaza-less lying Dajjal of Najd! This a fact that you can not deny no matter how much you try to lie!
        Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 08-01-19, 07:48 PM.

        Comment


        • I would like you to tell me where and when did the Prophet s.a.a.w. and his Sahaba talk about the differences between Sifat Ma'ani and Sifat Ayniya? Or claim themselves Sada al-Ashariya. The terms you make up were not even discussed during the time of them. And if the Prophet s.a.a.w and the companions didn't deem it necessary then why are you? Also, I have nothing to apologize for. And the people you get your Islam from today could very well be Sheikh al-Rands.
          "When a man sees the road as long he weakens in his walk." Ibn Qayyim

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Musbah View Post
            I would like you to tell me where and when did the Prophet s.a.a.w. and his Sahaba talk about the differences between Sifat Ma'ani and Sifat Ayniya? Or claim themselves Sada al-Ashariya. The terms you make up were not even discussed during the time of them. And if the Prophet s.a.a.w and the companions didn't deem it necessary then why are you? Also, I have nothing to apologize for. And the people you get your Islam from today could very well be Sheikh al-Rands.
            Like I said: Ignorance and outright idiocy! Your posts are full of that. Yet you want to be taken serious?!

            The issue are not the terms, because in every science you'll find new words and this was never viewed as a problem by the scholars and you mentioning this just shows your ignorance!
            The problem is rather that the scholars of your sect (I‘m not speaking about laymen like you who‘ are basically blindly repeating what they‘ve heard from them without proper understanding and are mostly unaware of their Kufri beliefs!) are REJECTING the fact that Allah ta‘ala is completely unlike his creation! They‘re rejecting things that are established by absolute texts! Do you understand that?

            Another example: When someone claims that the world is eternal in its kind, do you know how many texts he has rejected? This is clear disbelief!

            Then: You lied, so you‘ve to apologize! And IF you did so unintentionally and made a claim without knowledge, then you still have to apologize!

            And: Do you even know whom I take my religion from? No! (FYI: I‘m not taking from anyone in the West!)
            So what‘s this claim of yours?
            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 08-01-19, 08:10 PM.

            Comment


            • lol @ honest discussion

              Comment


              • And by the way: The topic of this thread is still the original Najdi / Wahhabi movement and their unjustified Takfir and mass-killings of other Muslims!
                For both things I‘ve brought clear cut proofs from their books! A prime example is their Takfir against the people of Makka al-mukkarama! Did you read what had been posted?

                Why is it that you want all to change the topic to Ash‘aris? Running from the truth regarding the Najdi movement?
                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 08-01-19, 08:20 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                  lol @ honest discussion
                  LOL. 73 pages and counting.
                  "When a man sees the road as long he weakens in his walk." Ibn Qayyim

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                    And by the way: The topic of this thread is still the original Najdi / Wahhabi movement and their unjustified Takfir and mass-killings!

                    Why is it that you want all to change the topic to Ash‘aris?
                    Your're right. We should all just sit back and let you continue to defame scholars with your lies and propaganda nonsense without rebuke.
                    "When a man sees the road as long he weakens in his walk." Ibn Qayyim

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                      And by the way: The topic of this thread is still the original Najdi / Wahhabi movement and their unjustified Takfir and mass-killings of other Muslims!
                      For both things I‘ve brought clear cut proofs from their books! A prime example is their Takfir against the people of Makka al-mukkarama! Did you read what had been posted?

                      Why is it that you want all to change the topic to Ash‘aris? Running from the truth regarding the Najdi movement?
                      I like scrutinising those who come out with claims. You've been doing a bit of running around yourself when it's about your own beliefs.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Musbah View Post

                        Your're right. We should all just sit back and let you continue to defame scholars with your lies and propaganda nonsense without rebuke.
                        Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab was not a scholar. He had not a single permission to teach any Islamic science. His teachers rejected his behavior and extremism. The Hanbali scholars of the region rejected his Takfir. Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab made explicit Takfir upon the major Hanbali scholars of his region including the Shaykh Ibn Fayruz al-Ahsa`i (d. 1216 AH), who was a great admirer of Ibn Taymiyya. What else do you want?

                        As for Ibn Taymiyya: He was without any doubt a scholar and had a lot of knowledge. This however does not change the fact hat he had a lot of problematic views, which is why he was criticized.
                        (FYI: I used to think very highly of him before starting to read some of books.)
                        The things that I ascribed to him (i.e. the belief in tangible attributes, that God is subject to changes, that He’s necessarily spatially confined, that the divine speech is only eternal in its kind, that the world is eternal in its kind, etc) are explicitly mentioned by himself in his books! The same things can be found in the statements and books of "Salafi" Mashayikh!
                        So where are the lies? Just tell me where I have ascribed a single thing to him, which can not be found in his works?!

                        Just because you‘ve not read his statements it‘s not my fault!
                        Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 08-01-19, 08:46 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Musbah View Post

                          Translated: I don't wish to accept Imams al-Ashari or Ghazali's turn to the manhaj of the salaf at the end of their lives and choose to perceive them according to my whims and desires.
                          I'll start a new thread for you with an article I helped write on the subject - hope that will satisfy you and abu julaybeeb

                          In that thread you can answer my question - have your read Ghazali's Iljam?
                          Last edited by faqir; 08-01-19, 08:50 PM.
                          www.marifah.info

                          Wahhabis Refuted
                          Ash'aris

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by faqir View Post

                            I'll start a new thread for you with an article I helped write on the subject - hope that will satisfy you and abu julaybeeb

                            In that thread you can answer my question - have your read Ghazali's Iljam?
                            Maybe he should also translate the name of the book »Iljam al-Awwam 'an 'Ilm al-Kalam«, because it‘s enough to understand that the book is not against 'Ilm al-Kalam in itself, but rather only a warning to laymen to get into it. This is true regarding any science where one lacks qualification.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by faqir View Post

                              I'll start a new thread for you with an article I helped write on the subject - hope that will satisfy you and abu julaybeeb

                              In that thread you can answer my question - have your read Ghazali's Iljam?
                              That book has been translated by a publisher called Lampost Productions that the translator called, "A Return to Purity in Creed" . I would dare not bother to read your revisionist interpretation of that book. I have it in pdf form though that book has been hard to obtain but the Publisher the end of last year did a limited edition reprint of it. I may have missed the opportunity to purchase it.
                              "When a man sees the road as long he weakens in his walk." Ibn Qayyim

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Musbah View Post

                                That book has been translated by a publisher called Lampost Productions that the translator called, "A Return to Purity in Creed" . I would dare not bother to read your revisionist interpretation of that book. I have it in pdf form though that book has been hard to obtain but the Publisher the end of last year did a limited edition reprint of it. I may have missed the opportunity to purchase it.
                                its ok you can read the arabic version which is readily available on line or at ghazali.org
                                of course none of this is relevant to the subject of the thread
                                www.marifah.info

                                Wahhabis Refuted
                                Ash'aris

                                Comment

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