The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

[Abu Sulayman]

This Ash'ari doesn't know if he's promoting Tawassul or Tashaffa'. I ask Allah for the intercession of the Prophet, peace be upon him, every day. However, that intercession is that he, peace be upon him, be granted al-Maqam al-Mahmud. As for Tawassul, then the Ash'ari can't bring a single evidence from the Quran, Sunnah, Companion, Tabi'ee, Imam of Ahl as-Sunnah, or one of the Salaf saying that it is legislated to do Tawassul through a dead or absent person or at a person's grave. Not a single person. As for Tawassul through living people who are perceived to be the best Muslims and most pious, then this is proven in the Sunnah.

Here is what Ibn Taymiyyah said:

...

These Ash'aris hate Ibn Taymiyyah for being one of the greatest scholars to expose the misguidance of the Ashaa'irah.

[Abu Sulayman]

Any response to this?

Well, your question should actually be what the scholars allowed and what not. This religion is not a game so that my and your opinion are put above those of the great scholars of Islam.

[Abu Sulayman]

Every single person I've discussed *this* type of intercession with, who says it is allowed, falls apart very quickly when we get to the details of how/who/when/where/why.

Every single one without exception.

Are you sure about that?
Could you please tell us what you think of 'Uthman bin Hunayf, radhiallahu 'anhu? Have you refuted him also?

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Well, your question should actually be what the scholars allowed and what not. This religion is not a game so that my and your opinion are put above those of the great scholars of Islam.

I decide what my questions are, thank you very much. You telling me what the questions should be is setting yourself up to answer yourself. I don't want to play that game.

So, what's your response? It should be very easy to answer since I'm asking you about what you do. Let me remind you:

The question was why would you seek intercession through anyone else. Incidentally, who do you use for intercession?...

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Are you sure about that?...

100%.

[Abu Sulayman]

I decide what my questions are, thank you very much. You telling me what the questions should be is setting yourself up to answer yourself. I don't want to play that game.

So, what's your response? It should be very easy to answer since I'm asking you about what you do. Let me remind you:

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Two reasons.

1. I'm investigating your claim that it's permissible
2. I don't believe your questions are relevant given that they are not based on any claims I've made.

...And what I did is to set the issues straight: There is no room for "my opinion" or "your opinion" here. This is something you should understand first before I respond...

No, you're trying to obfuscate the issue. I asked about what you do. It's the same for any issue: If I ask how you pray, I'm not asking for your personal opinion per se, I'm asking about what you do based on opinions you follow. So if your teaching someone to pray, and you tell them where to place their hands, and they ask for a demonstration, you don't respond by saying 'there is no room for my opinion' here. Very simple stuff and I'm sure you know exactly what I'm on about.

As for the response:

Again, your responses are inadequate.
I'll try yet again.

1. The question was why would you seek intercession through anyone else.

So you say that intercession via the messenger of Allah is allowed (in the context we're talking about - the type of intercession we have a disagreement about - don't bother involving other types that are irrelevant). So why would you seek intercession through lesser people?

2. You haven't given any examples of who you seek intercession though (other than the messenger of Allah )

Now my question:
What do you say regarding the position of 'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - regarding this issue? Was he wrong?

I don't say anything. Feel free to scrutinise any claims I've made.

[AbuNajm]

Tawassul, Tashaffu' and Istighathah: All of it is allowed with the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.

Ok, just quote a non-Ash'ari before the year 300AH who says the above.

Neither of those Ahadith, in fact not a single authentic Hadith, establishes a creed wherein a dead or absent person is directly addressed for the fulfilling of a need or to obtain any help. That is where your creed utterly fails the smell test.

Just because later scholars who followed the Kullabi-Ash'ari sect falsely interpreted a Hadith, does not make the narrating Companion responsible for the false belief that results.

Tell us which scholar prior to Ibn Taymiyya has ever made such a claim against 'Uthman bin Hunayf, radhiallahu 'anhu?

Ibn Taymiyyah doesn't "make a claim against" Ibn Hunayf, so no one knows what you're on about.

As for you qouting Ibn Taymiyyah: Who told you that his words are of any worth? Why should any Muslim care what he said?

You misquote Ibn Taymiyyah and slander him. I translated his actual words and presented them to show the falsehood of your claim.

So you make Takfeer of scholars over Furuu' in Aqeedah. Good to know.

Ibn Hazm agreed with the Mu'tazilah on issues and his creed is actually worse than the Ash'ari creed according to Ahl as-Sunnah.

If you didn't know about Ibn Hazm and you use him as some sort of litmus test for creed, then it's obvious you don't know anything about Aqeedah and you're just a copy & paste artist.

Do you even understand the Arabic language?

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

The fact that we're even talking about seeking intercession through anyone other than the messenger of Allah absolutely blows my mind.

The claim is that seeking intercession through 'anyone righteous' is permissible. Naturally, you want to go with the best. Now, if the best of all creation, , has got your back so to speak, nothing else matters. Why even bother with anyone else?

Therefore, the point of contention is, and can only be, about intercession through the messenger of Allah and nobody else.

1. The claim that *these* types of intercession are permissible.
1a. The details around this method of worship beyond it's legal status. Like any act of worship, it has to have conditions; recommendations; prohibitions... i.e. the 'fiqh' side of it.

2. If the claim is proven, only then can we talk about intercession through others. This part is straightforward. If the claim is proven, then nobody else matters.

[Abu Sulayman]

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

But of course you are.

There's no misunderstanding and the question stands.

"Every single one without exception"

[Abu Sulayman]

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Every single one, without exception.

:whataboutery:

[Abu Sulayman]

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

You are afraid you go further than the usual rhetoric because you know you will fall flat on your face. This is why you're struggling to turn it around and pin stuff on me. You don't even quote me because of your cowardice. Nobody has ever gone beyond the usual mantras because they know how weak the whole thing is.

Every damn time, without exception.