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The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

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  • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
    This Ash'ari doesn't know if he's promoting Tawassul or Tashaffa'. I ask Allah for the intercession of the Prophet, peace be upon him, every day. However, that intercession is that he, peace be upon him, be granted al-Maqam al-Mahmud. As for Tawassul, then the Ash'ari can't bring a single evidence from the Quran, Sunnah, Companion, Tabi'ee, Imam of Ahl as-Sunnah, or one of the Salaf saying that it is legislated to do Tawassul through a dead or absent person or at a person's grave. Not a single person. As for Tawassul through living people who are perceived to be the best Muslims and most pious, then this is proven in the Sunnah.

    Here is what Ibn Taymiyyah said:

    ...

    These Ash'aris hate Ibn Taymiyyah for being one of the greatest scholars to expose the misguidance of the Ashaa'irah.
    Tawassul, Tashaffu' and Istighathah: All of it is allowed with the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.

    As for the evidence: Some of it has been brought, but it seems you‘re unable to read. The Hadith of the blind man and the man in need (the authenticity of both reports is established!) are enough to show that your claim is completely and utterly wrong.
    'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - is a companion and he knows the teachings of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - better than your Ibn Taymiyya, who even dares to act as if it‘s only the position of one Sahabi.
    Tell us which scholar prior to Ibn Taymiyya has ever made such a claim against 'Uthman bin Hunayf, radhiallahu 'anhu?

    As for you qouting Ibn Taymiyyah: Who told you that his words are of any worth? Why should any Muslim care what he said?

    Let me remind you: Your Ibn Taymiyyah is guilty of disbelief (!) in a number of issues. Among that is his atheist claim that he took from Ibn Rushd al-Hafid that the word is eternal in its kind (i.e the issue of »Hawadith la Awwala laha«).

    This is disbelief by consensus. This is mentioned by al-Qadhi 'Iyadh. And if you don‘t like him, because he‘s too "Ash'ari" then let it be known to you that this is also mentioned by Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi (who‘s Anti-Ash'ari).
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 17-10-18, 03:29 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

      Any response to this?
      Well, your question should actually be what the scholars allowed and what not. This religion is not a game so that my and your opinion are put above those of the great scholars of Islam.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
        Every single person I've discussed *this* type of intercession with, who says it is allowed, falls apart very quickly when we get to the details of how/who/when/where/why.

        Every single one without exception.
        Are you sure about that?
        Could you please tell us what you think of 'Uthman bin Hunayf, radhiallahu 'anhu? Have you refuted him also?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

          Well, your question should actually be what the scholars allowed and what not. This religion is not a game so that my and your opinion are put above those of the great scholars of Islam.
          I decide what my questions are, thank you very much. You telling me what the questions should be is setting yourself up to answer yourself. I don't want to play that game.

          So, what's your response? It should be very easy to answer since I'm asking you about what you do. Let me remind you:

          The question was why would you seek intercession through anyone else. Incidentally, who do you use for intercession?...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

            Are you sure about that?...
            100%.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

              I decide what my questions are, thank you very much. You telling me what the questions should be is setting yourself up to answer yourself. I don't want to play that game.

              So, what's your response? It should be very easy to answer since I'm asking you about what you do. Let me remind you:


              Could you please explain to me, why you‘re giving yourself the right to ask all the time without responding to my questions?

              And what I did is to set the issues straight: There is no room for "my opinion" or "your opinion" here. This is something you should understand first before I respond.

              As for the response:
              Because Tawassul is established in the Sunnah with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and the righteous. Simple as that.
              I‘ve used the supplication that Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - himself has teached as in the Hadith of the blind man.

              Now my question:
              What do you say regarding the position of 'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - regarding this issue? Was he wrong?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                Could you please explain to me, why you‘re giving yourself the right to ask all the time without responding to my questions?...
                Two reasons.

                1. I'm investigating your claim that it's permissible
                2. I don't believe your questions are relevant given that they are not based on any claims I've made.

                ...And what I did is to set the issues straight: There is no room for "my opinion" or "your opinion" here. This is something you should understand first before I respond...
                No, you're trying to obfuscate the issue. I asked about what you do. It's the same for any issue: If I ask how you pray, I'm not asking for your personal opinion per se, I'm asking about what you do based on opinions you follow. So if your teaching someone to pray, and you tell them where to place their hands, and they ask for a demonstration, you don't respond by saying 'there is no room for my opinion' here. Very simple stuff and I'm sure you know exactly what I'm on about.

                As for the response:
                Again, your responses are inadequate.
                ...Because Tawassul is established in the Sunnah with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and the righteous. Simple as that.

                I‘ve used the supplication that Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - himself has teached as in the Hadith of the blind man...
                I'll try yet again.

                1. The question was why would you seek intercession through anyone else.

                So you say that intercession via the messenger of Allah is allowed (in the context we're talking about - the type of intercession we have a disagreement about - don't bother involving other types that are irrelevant). So why would you seek intercession through lesser people?

                2. You haven't given any examples of who you seek intercession though (other than the messenger of Allah )


                Now my question:
                What do you say regarding the position of 'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - regarding this issue? Was he wrong?
                I don't say anything. Feel free to scrutinise any claims I've made.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                  Tawassul, Tashaffu' and Istighathah: All of it is allowed with the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.
                  Ok, just quote a non-Ash'ari before the year 300AH who says the above.

                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  As for the evidence: Some of it has been brought, but it seems you‘re unable to read. The Hadith of the blind man and the man in need (the authenticity of both reports is established!) are enough to show that your claim is completely and utterly wrong.
                  Neither of those Ahadith, in fact not a single authentic Hadith, establishes a creed wherein a dead or absent person is directly addressed for the fulfilling of a need or to obtain any help. That is where your creed utterly fails the smell test.

                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - is a companion and he knows the teachings of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - better than your Ibn Taymiyya, who even dares to act as if it‘s only the position of one Sahabi.
                  Just because later scholars who followed the Kullabi-Ash'ari sect falsely interpreted a Hadith, does not make the narrating Companion responsible for the false belief that results.

                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  Tell us which scholar prior to Ibn Taymiyya has ever made such a claim against 'Uthman bin Hunayf, radhiallahu 'anhu?
                  Ibn Taymiyyah doesn't "make a claim against" Ibn Hunayf, so no one knows what you're on about.

                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  As for you qouting Ibn Taymiyyah: Who told you that his words are of any worth? Why should any Muslim care what he said?
                  You misquote Ibn Taymiyyah and slander him. I translated his actual words and presented them to show the falsehood of your claim.

                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  Let me remind you: Your Ibn Taymiyyah is guilty of disbelief (!) in a number of issues. Among that is his atheist claim that he took from Ibn Rushd al-Hafid that the word is eternal in its kind (i.e the issue of »Hawadith la Awwala laha«).
                  So you make Takfeer of scholars over Furuu' in Aqeedah. Good to know.

                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  This is disbelief by consensus. This is mentioned by al-Qadhi 'Iyadh. And if you don‘t like him, because he‘s too "Ash'ari" then let it be known to you that this is also mentioned by Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi (who‘s Anti-Ash'ari).
                  Ibn Hazm agreed with the Mu'tazilah on issues and his creed is actually worse than the Ash'ari creed according to Ahl as-Sunnah.

                  If you didn't know about Ibn Hazm and you use him as some sort of litmus test for creed, then it's obvious you don't know anything about Aqeedah and you're just a copy & paste artist.

                  Do you even understand the Arabic language?

                  Comment


                  • The fact that we're even talking about seeking intercession through anyone other than the messenger of Allah absolutely blows my mind.

                    The claim is that seeking intercession through 'anyone righteous' is permissible. Naturally, you want to go with the best. Now, if the best of all creation, , has got your back so to speak, nothing else matters. Why even bother with anyone else?

                    Therefore, the point of contention is, and can only be, about intercession through the messenger of Allah and nobody else.

                    1. The claim that *these* types of intercession are permissible.
                    1a. The details around this method of worship beyond it's legal status. Like any act of worship, it has to have conditions; recommendations; prohibitions... i.e. the 'fiqh' side of it.

                    2. If the claim is proven, only then can we talk about intercession through others. This part is straightforward. If the claim is proven, then nobody else matters.

                    Comment


                    • I‘ll make it short, because I‘m quite busy.

                      To AbuNajm:
                      Before defending your beloved Ibn Taymiyyah - the arch-innovator and caller to disbelief - go and read what he said in his "Qa‘ida Jalila fil Tawassul wal Wasila" regarding 'Uthman bin Hunayf‘s -radhiallahu 'anhu - position.
                      Before you start whining because I‘m calling disbelief as disbelief: He‘s guilty of disbelief in a number of issues and I‘m not making Takfir upon him, but rather saying these positions are disbelief.
                      As for Ibn Hazm: He is reliable regarding issues of consensus, that‘s why I mentioned him.
                      Please have a little bit Ghira for Islam. Ibn Taymiyyah is not more important than Islam.


                      To Abu 'Abdullaah:
                      I think there is a misunderstanding here. When I say seeking intercession, then this is meant generally and includes asking someone to supplicate for you and this is allowed with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and with other than him.
                      If you however mean the Shafa'a al-Kubra on the day of judgement, then this obviously special to Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as it‘s clear from the narration in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim.
                      And by the way: It‘s you who brought the issue of seeking intercession with other than the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and not me.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                        I‘ll make it short, because I‘m quite busy...
                        But of course you are.

                        To Abu 'Abdullaah:
                        I think there is a misunderstanding here. When I say seeking intercession, then this is meant generally and includes asking someone to supplicate for you and this is allowed with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and with other than him.
                        If you however mean the Shafa'a al-Kubra on the day of judgement, then this obviously special to Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as it‘s clear from the narration in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim.
                        And by the way: It‘s you who brought the issue of seeking intercession with other than the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and not me.
                        There's no misunderstanding and the question stands.

                        "Every single one without exception"

                        Comment


                        • Before asking any questions: Do you even accept the permissibility of seeking intercession through Rasulullah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam? If not, what‘s the proof for it to be forbidden?

                          Is the supplication that 'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - learned from the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and teached after his death islamically correct or wrong? Please answer.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                            Before asking any questions: Do you even accept the permissibility of seeking intercession through Rasulullah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam? If not, what‘s the proof for it to be forbidden?

                            Is the supplication that 'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - learned from the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and teached after his death islamically correct or wrong? Please answer.
                            Every single one, without exception.

                            :whataboutery:

                            Comment


                            • So that‘s how you "refute“ people? Simply ignoring whatever they say?

                              Guess it‘s very difficult for cultists to accept the position of a companion (!!!) - who has never ever been criticized for this position by a single companion or a single scholar (prior to that misguided Ibn Taymiyyah!) - to be Islamically correct.
                              Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 19-10-18, 07:26 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                                So that‘s how you "refute“ people?

                                Guess it‘s very difficult for cultists to accept the position of a companion (!!!) - who has never ever been criticized for this position by a single companion or a single scholar (prior to that misguided Ibn Taymiyyah!) - to be Islamically correct.
                                You are afraid you go further than the usual rhetoric because you know you will fall flat on your face. This is why you're struggling to turn it around and pin stuff on me. You don't even quote me because of your cowardice. Nobody has ever gone beyond the usual mantras because they know how weak the whole thing is.

                                Every damn time, without exception.

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