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The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

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  • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post

    And now with the forum not allowing Arabic script in posts, looks like it's English-only discussions for the time being
    Maybe, it is your browser. Have you tried a different browser?
    Watch those eyes

    Comment


    • AbuNajm
      AbuNajm commented
      Editing a comment
      No, but I will try that. Jazak Allahu khayran.

  • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
    What's telling about how these rare interpretations of Quran and Ahadith are brought to bear in the matter of intercession is that the authoritative Tafaseer and authoritative works explaining the Ahadith [Shuruuh], do not contain these rare interpretations used to justify intercession.
    Something readers need to keep in mind and should not be lost in the thread.
    Watch those eyes

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
      As for your claim that they're not "classical": Scholars like Imam al-Mawsili (d. 683 AH) and Imam Ibn Humam (d. 861 AH) are both MAJOR and ACCEPTED scholars of the Hanafiyyah. This is a matter of fact and there is no room whatsoever to doubt that.
      Earlier on in this thread you actually said I have not brought any Verse from the Qur'aan or the Sunnah to justify my claims. Now, rather than discuss the issue yourself in the light of the Qur'aan and Sunnah, you resort to books written in 600H and have nothing to offer but mere rhetoric that scholars said so?

      The issues where he changed included things like rejecting Tafwidh (while his Hanbali Mashayikh were Mufawwidhah!!) and acting as if God has tangible attributes (Sifat 'Ayniyyah Dhatiyyah) and that God is subject to changes (Hulul al-Hawadith fil Dhat al-Ilahiyyah). He argued that whatever exists subsiting in itself - no matter whether created or creator - must be spatially confinded (mutahayyiz) and this is not just Tajsim in itself, but also the thinking of materialists! Other than that he rejected the visitation of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and taking him as a mean to one's Lord and to seek his intercession. He also claimed that the world is eternal in it's kind, that 3 Talaq in one sitting count as one, that the speech of God is mudath and ghayr makhluq at the same time and other things.
      Here you go again. You don't want to turn this thread into an aqiidah discussion. You kept saying that when I talked about the baatil beliefs of the Ashaa'irah regarding the internal Kalaam and what not, but now any moment you get you want to start talking about Ibn Taymiyyah and his aqiidah?

      Can you please, at the very least, stick to your own advice?



      Or will you simply say "this is weak, no one from the Salaf did it, it goes against the Qur`an, etc.", even though it is authentic and the Salaf did it and in accordance with the Qur`an and the Sunnah,


      That has to be the most un-academic thing you have written so far. That sounds like a plea from a person who knows his evidences are weak to please not use that as he has no answer to it.

      Since you said you can quote before and after Ibn Taymiyyah, which Salaf from 200 H do you know who said one should do what you are trying to justify?

      Please do not give me the weak hadith of that Arabi! If you don't have an authentic quote from the Salaf save your breath as it is quite obvious you have to clutch onto weak narrations to justify an issue which was never the way of the Guided Caliphs such as Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthmaan, or Ali (may Allaah be pleased with them all).

      You oppose their way and are misguided. Plain and simple.
      Watch those eyes

      Comment


      • Something the readers need to watch out for is the constant use of scholars said this scholars said that by the OP while himself playing the there is no taqliid in aqiidah card earlier in this thread when I quoted scholars.

        The saying of a scholar or scholars is not a hujjah. This is well known. You will find the Ashaa'irah themselves dismissing the likes of Ibn abd al-barr when he did not agree with their baatil aqiidah. Then, they will say "and he did not master this subject." They will also go on to say he was excused for his mistake.


        The hujjah is in consensus. There is no consensus on the baatil aqiidah of the Ashaa'irah. Ibn abd al-Barr is a living example. Ibn Hajar also quotes in his fath how so many of the mutakallimuun made rujuu from their baatil aqiidah.


        Be very careful. The OP indulges in a number of logical fallacies such as appeal to spite to make a point. Read carefully and you will realize this.


        The fact is that the Companions (may Allaah be pleased with them) did not ask the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) after he left this world. There is no authentic narration about it. They are the guided Companions (may Allaah be pleased with them). They are the ones you need to look to for guidance. Not some scholars in 600H!!!

        They have to make far fetched ta'wiil to justify their false beliefs. Please do not let him misguide you.

        There is a reason scholars tell laymen not to debate with people of the baatil sects. Your foundations are not strong and these misguided individuals will lead you astray. Diin is too precious. You only get one chance at this. Use it wisely.
        Last edited by ZeeshanParvez; 18-09-18, 03:01 AM.
        Watch those eyes

        Comment


        • Before I answer the post of Abu 'Abdullaah, I would first like to post something that I had posted on another forum (I couldn't link to any of the sources used, because then the comment can't be posted):


          _____

          Some proofs from the Qur`an al-karim and the Sunnah regarding the permissibility of seeking intercession with the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam:

          When being confronted with such statements some people among those who are influenced by the Pseudo-Salafi movement start saying things like: "We follow Qur`an and Sunnah and not the statements of Shaykh Fulan and Shaykh 'Allan. This act has no basis in the Shari'ah and is Bid'ah and Shirk. None of the Salaf al-salih have done it. You Quburis (grave-worshippers) have invented it."

          To such people it is said:
          The scholars are the heirs of the Prophets - 'alayhim al-salam - and have a better understanding of the meanings of the Qur`an and the Sunnah than me or you.
          And seeking the intercession of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is something that has clearly a basis in the Shari'ah and it's an action that was present in the time of the Sahabah - radhiallahu 'anhum - and those who followed them in goodness.
          Denying this fact is either because of ignorance or stubbornness [or both].


          Some proofs for what has been stated:

          - Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says:

          { وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُوۤاْ أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَآءُوكَ فَٱسْتَغْفَرُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَٱسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ ٱلرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ ٱللَّهَ تَوَّاباً رَّحِيماً }

          { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful. }

          [4:64]

          If it is said that this Ayah was sent down because of the Munafiqin and that it only applies during the lifetime of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, then the reply is: The scholars understood the Ayah to be general in meaning and they did not make any distinction between the lifetime of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and the time after it.
          And a proof for this being their position is that many of them (i.e. classical scholars) have mentioned the narration of al-'Utbi (where the Ayah is also mentioned) and recommended doing that which is mentioned in the narration.

          This is the narration of al-'Utbi as mentioned by Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676) (he recommends it as will be shown in one of the next posts):

          كنت جالسا عند قبر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فجاء أعرابي فقال : السلام عليك يا رسول الله سمعت الله يقول ( { ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما } ) وقد جئتك مستغفرا من ذنبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي ثم أنشأ يقول :

          يا خير من دفنت بالقاع أعظمه *** فطاب من طيبهن القاع والأكم
          نفسي الفداء لقبر أنت ساكنه *** فيه العفاف وفيه الجود والكرم

          ثم انصرف فحملتني عيناي فرأيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في النوم فقال : " يا عتبي الحق الأعرابي فبشره بأن الله تعالى قد غفر له

          "As I was sitting by the grave of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, a Beduin Arab came and said: "Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah! I have heard Allah saying: "If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful" (4:64), so I have come to you asking forgiveness for my sin, seeking your intercession with my Lord." Then he began to recite poetry:

          O best of those whose bones are buried in the deep earth,
          And from whose fragrance the depth and the height have become sweet,
          May I be the ransom for a grave which thou inhabit,
          And in which are found purity, bounty and munificence!

          Then he left, and I dozed and saw the Prophet in my sleep. He said to me: "O `Utbi, run after the Beduin and give him glad tidings that Allah has forgiven him."
          "

          Source: al-Majmu' and translation taken from here: "Visiting the Prophet's Grave"


          - The Hadith of the blind man:

          عن عثمان بن حنيف ، أن رجلا ضرير البصر أتى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : ادع الله أن يعافيني ، قال : " إن شئت دعوت وإن شئت صبرت فهو خير لك " ، قال : فادعه ، قال : فأمره أن يتوضأ فيحسن وضوءه ويدعو بهذا الدعاء : " اللهم إني أسألك وأتوجه إليك بنبيك ، محمد نبي الرحمة ، إني توجهت بك إلى ربي في حاجتي هذه لتقضى لي ، اللهم فشفعه في"

          Source: Jami' al-Tirmidhi and translation taken from here: "The Issue of Tawassul in Du'a"

          If it said that this was during the lifetime of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, then the reply is:
          'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - teached this Du'a` also after the death of the Prophet, 'alayhi salatu wa salam:


          - The Hadith of the man in need:

          أن رجلا ، " كان يختلف إلى عثمان بن عفان رضي الله تعالى عنه في حاجة له ، فكان عثمان لا يلتفت إليه ولا ينظر في حاجته ، فلقي ابن حنيف فشكى ذلك إليه ، فقال له عثمان بن حنيف : ائت الميضأة فتوضأ ، ثم ائت المسجد فصل فيه ركعتين ، ثم قل : اللهم إني أسألك وأتوجه إليك بنبينا محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم نبي الرحمة ، يا محمد إني أتوجه بك إلى ربي فتقضي لي حاجتي وتذكر حاجتك ، ورح حتى أروح معك ، فانطلق الرجل فصنع ما ، قال له ، ثم أتى باب عثمان بن عفان رضي الله تعالى عنه ، فجاء البواب حتى أخذ بيده فأدخله على عثمان بن عفان رضي الله تعالى عنه ، فأجلسه معه على الطنفسة حنيفا ، فقال : حاجتك ؟ فذكر حاجته وقضاها له ، ثم ، قال له : ما ذكرت حاجتك حتى كان الساعة ، وقال : ما كانت لك من حاجة فأذكرها ، ثم إن الرجل خرج من عنده فلقي عثمان بن حنيف ، فقال له : جزاك الله خيرا ما كان ينظر في حاجتي ولا يلتفت إلي حتى كلمته في ، فقال عثمان بن حنيف : والله ما كلمته ، ولكني شهدت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وأتاه ضرير فشكى إليه ذهاب بصره ، فقال له النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم : فتصبر ، فقال : يا رسول الله ، ليس لي قائد وقد شق علي ، فقال النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم : " ائت الميضأة فتوضأ ، ثم صل ركعتين ، ثم ادع بهذه الدعوات " ، قال ابن حنيف : فوالله ما تفرقنا وطال بنا الحديث حتى دخل علينا الرجل كأنه لم يكن به ضر قط

          "O Allāh, I ask You and I approach You through your Prophet Muhammad - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad, I approach my Lord through you that my need be fulfilled,"

          Source: al-Mu'jam al-Kabir lil Tabarani and translation taken from here: "Epistle in Refutation of al-Albānī by Shaykh `Abdullāh ibn Muhammad ibn al-Siddīq al-Ghumārī"

          (Note: Both Ahadith are authentic according to the scholars of Hadith.)


          - The narration of Malik al-Dar:

          أصاب الناس قحط في زمان عمر بن الخطاب ، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ، فقال : يا رسول الله , استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا O Messenger of Allāh, ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished,Source: Dala`il al-Nubuwwah lil Bayhaqi and translation taken from here: "Seeking Aid with the Prophet by Imām Ibn Hajar al-Haytamī"

          (Note: The narration is authentic according to the scholars of Hadith.The man in the narration is the companion Bilal bin al-Harith, radhiallahu 'anhu.)


          - There are more narrations, but I think that the above narrations should be already enough.

          _____




          Explanation:

          Often people who are influenced by the Pseudo-Salafi movement find it difficult to understand this matter in the correct way. That's why I'll try to explain the matter a little bit further:

          During the lifetime of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alahyi wa sallam - there were believers who would ask the Prophet for supplication. This was allowed without any doubt.If a Muslim however does this after the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - has died, the Pseudo-Salafis will claim that this is polytheism. But why should this be polytheism while the belief of the person regarding Allah ta'ala and regarding Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is the same as the Muslim who asked him for supplication during his lifetime?

          This distinction is not an Islamic one, rather it's based upon an atheist and materialistic way of thinking (i.e. as if one doesn't exist anymore when one dies).

          The correct distinction would be to say that whosoever believes that a creation - whether that creation is alive or dead - may bring benefit or harm independently from Allah ta'ala has fallen into polytheism.

          Some important points that one shouldn't forget:

          - Allah ta'ala has created us and our actions, which means that all our abilities are given to us by Allah ta'ala. We wouldn't be even able to lift a finger, if Allah ta'ala wouldn't create this action in us.
          - Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala alone can bring benefit and harm independently, which means that the real help always comes from Allah ta'ala whether it was in the lifetime of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - or after it
          - Just like Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala granted Mu'jizat (miracles) to our Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - during his lifetime, He ta'ala can grant this to him even after death
          - The Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is still a Prophet and death only means that the state of one's existance changes. Add to this: He - 'alayhi salatu wa salam - is the best of all creation and his high rank and status in the sight of Allah will stay forever
          - The Prophets - 'alayhim al-salam - are alive in their graves and can pray and supplicate and this is proven by many narrations

          Let's also mention an example for a better understanding:

          If one gets sick one usually goes to a doctor. Would anyone claim that this is poyltheism "because Allah ta'ala alone is the one who heals"? Of course not. Why? Because the doctor [and the medicine that he gives one] is a mean (Sabab) for one get healed by Allah.
          The one going to the doctor knows that Allah ta'ala alone is the one who heals, but he also knows that Allah ta'ala has created means (Asbab) in order to get healed and taking this means is no way wrong.

          Likewise when one seeks aid with our Prophet - sallallahu 'alahyi wa sallam - it does not mean that one believes that he - 'alayhi salatu wa salam - can benefit or harm one independently from Allah, rather what one beliefs is that the real aid comes from Allah ta'ala alone without any partners, and the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - can be an intermediary mean (Sabab) for one to get this aid by his supplication and intercession unto his Lord.

          Imam Ibn al-Salah (d. 643 AH) regarded the fullfillment of one's needs when one performs Tawassul with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - among the miracles (Mu'jizat) that Allah granted to our Prophet, 'alayhi salatu wa salam:

          حتى لقد انتدب بعض العلماء لاستقصائها فجمع منها ألف معجزة وعددناه مقصرا إذا فوق ذلك بأضعاف لا تحصى فإنها ليست محصورة على ما وجد منها في عصره - صلى الله عليه وسلم - بل لم تزل تتجدد بعده - صلى الله عليه وسلم - على تعاقب العصور وذلك أن كرامات الأولياء من أمته وإجابات المتوسلين به في حوائجهم ومغوثاتهم عقيب توسلهم به في شدائدهم براهين له - صلى الله عليه وسلم - قواطع ومعجزات له سواطع ولا يعدها عد ولا يحصرها حد

          "In fact, one of the scholars attempted to enumerate these miracles, and counted one thousand; and even then, we consider him to have fallen short, for they are many multiples of that, and are, in fact, innumerable. They are not limited to only those that appeared at his hands during his life (peace and blessings of God be upon him); rather, they are continuously renewed after him (peace and blessings of God be upon him) with the turning of the ages; for the miracles (karamat) of the saints of his nation, and the answers to those who pray for the fulfilment of their needs by seeking intercession through him, and the succour which they find after seeking his intercession, by which they are delivered in the hour of their most dire need. . . all of these are unequivocal proofs of his greatness, and are to be counted as obvious miracles ascribed to him. As such, they have no limit!"

          Source: Fatawa Ibn al-Salah
          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 18-09-18, 12:21 PM.

          Comment


          • Still not a single authentic quote from any scholar from 200H.

            The weak hadīth I knew you would mention, you mention.

            Yet, you don't have any evidence the Rightly Guided Caliphs did what you promote.


            The Hadith of Mālik al-dar is not authentic. A Hadith is not only judged based on the chain of narrators. Now, we discover you don't even know the science of Hadith. The matn has to be acceptable as well. Both matn and chain together comprise an authentic Hadith. What is wrong with you? Why do you hide facts? Or are you simply ignorant copy pasting all the above from the Reliance of the traveller?


            The Sunnah when it does not rain is the prayer for rain! That's the Sunnah. Umar (may Allāh be pleased with him) is far removed from the lies you ascribed to him. He followed the Sunnah and prayed for rain. Do you know the name for the prayer of rain?


            ​​​​​​The matn opposes the authentic narrations in regard to the matter. Yet, you claim it's authentic purposely hiding facts. Shame on you. You Ashā'irah cry a river and reject the Hadith of the slave girl looking up to the Heavens to Allāh based not on chain but matn while here you turn a blind eye and accept a narration merely based on chain and even the chain is questionable. Double standards at their best.


            And even the Hadith of the blind man you use, uses completely different wordings for the dua which you would like to justify the wording of those in 600 H.


            How desperate does one have to be to defend bātil?
            Watch those eyes

            Comment


            • Let me save Abu Sulaymaan the trouble. Let me explain to you where the Ashaa'irah/Suufiyyah baatil leads to and how.

              Today, he introduced the concept of how the Mu'jizah of the Prophets (peace be upon them all) extend beyond their lives.


              Hence, you can make dua to them. You can ask them directly. It is only Allaah that gives. You can ask them. There is nothing wrong with it.


              Next, you have the Awliyaah. They are better than the martyrs. The martyrs are alive in their graves. Since the Awliyaah are better, they must be alive as well. The Awliyaah are alive in their graves.


              They have karaamat. These go beyond life. You can ask them as well. Visit the graves. it's a Sunnah to visit the graves. Ask them. They are very close to Allaah. Make dua to them. Don't make sujuud to them. That is haraam, but if someone does out of respect he is not a kaafir. Plus, maybe he wasn't making sujuud. He was just kissing the blessed grave. Nothing wrong. Its all good.


              Now, that you have understood the concept of Mu'jizah and karamaat and believe firmly that they extend beyond the grave, let's move on to stage two.



              The Prophet (sallallaahu alayi wa sallam) has al-tasarruf fi al-kaun. Have you not read the following Verse in the Qur'aan


              "...And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from..."


              He (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) gives and withholds (according to them). He discharges the affairs among the creation (according to them). Have you not read here that he is al-Qaasim. He (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said he distributes. This continues even after he has left us (according to them). .


              Now, let's move on. The angels are tasked with jobs. The Awliyaah are better than the Angels. The Awliyaah have karamaat. They also have al-tasarruf fi al-kaun (discharging of the affairs of the creation). There having al-tasarruf fi al-kaun is a karaamah of theirs which lives on after they die.


              Hence, when you combine these facts, you can call upon them for help. And it is all good because you believe only Allaah gives. All of these are just the means.


              There you have it. The devil has snatched Tawhiid right out of your heart. Do you think the devil is dumb? Do you think he will come to you and say worship so and so. Ask so and so. Phew. Heck no. He is way smarter than that.


              He will make you believe you are doing nothing wrong while you have left Islaam.

              You have gone from the worship of Allaah alone and asking Him alone to calling upon dead people and asking them help all the while lying to yourself that you believe only Allaah does.
              Watch those eyes

              Comment


              • That's why I said that one has to accept the authority of the scholars of Islam before discussing these things. The problem is that some of you Western Muslims have been influenced by the materialist and atheist Western thinking and their so called "age of enlightenment".
                Know that acting as if the scholars of Islam - with the exception of very few - did not understand the religion (which is what you're clearly arguing!) will first lead to following one's desires and then step by step to apostasy and atheism, we ask Allah ta'ala for well-being.

                When the incident of Malik al-Dar is mentioned, then you and me are not in a position to judge its correctness, rather this is left to the classical scholars of Hadith. They have authenticated it! The scholars did act upon that Hadith! After knowing this, there is no point to mention your or my opinion here.

                As for the Tawassul of 'Umar through al-'Abbas - radhiallahu 'anhuma -, then know that this goes back to the issue of Tawassul with our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and is a proof AGAINST you; and not a single scholar prior to Ibn Taymiyyah used this Hadith against Tawassul.
                Whd did the people make Tawassul through al-'Abbas and not through 'Umar - may Allah ta'ala be pleased with them both -, while 'Umar is superior in rank? Because of the relation of al-'Abbas - radhiallahu 'anhu - to the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and that is why 'Umar - radhiallahu 'anhu - did not simply say "now we take al-'Abbas as a means to you", rather he said "now we take our Prophet's uncle as a means to you"!
                So Tawassul through al-'Abbas goes in reality back to performing Tawassul through the Prophet!
                And that's why when al-'Abbas supplicated he said "The people have turned to You by means of me because of my position in relation to your Prophet". So again the matter clearly goes back to the rank of Rasulullah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.

                And the benefit from these narrations is what Imam Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani (d. 852 AH) said:

                ويستفاد من قصة العباس استحباب الاستشفاع بأهل الخير والصلاح وأهل بيت النبوة ، وفيه فضل العباس وفضل عمر لتواضعه للعباس ومعرفته بحقه

                "The benefit from this story regarding al-'Abbas is that it's desirable to seek intercession (Istishfa') through righteous people and the Prophet's family (Ahl al-Bayt), and in it is the merit of al-'Abbas and [also] the merit of 'Umar due to his humbleness before al-'Abbas and his recognition of his [due] right."

                Source: Fath al-Bari

                So this shows that one can do Tawassul not just with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, but also with his family and the righteous.


                As for you asking more than once for scholars prior to 600AH:
                This shows that you're regarding the absolute majority of the scholars from 600AH on - with the exception of Ibn Taymiyyah's group - as people who did not even know the difference between Tawhid and Shirk and invented things into religion out of nowhere. This is enough to know that your group is a cultist group with no connection to the Muslims of the past!

                But let me tell you this: The scholars did not invent this issue. They were not fools! They knew Tawhid better than you! It is something supported by the divine texts and acted upon by the scholars before them!


                But let me give a qoute:

                Imam al-Mawardi (d. 448 AH) said:

                فأما زيارة قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فمأمور بها ومندوب إليها ، روى عبيد الله ، عن نافع عن ابن عمر عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال : من زار قبري وجبت له شفاعتي ، وحكي عن العتبي أنه قال : كنت عند قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فأتى أعرابي ، فقال : يا رسول الله وجدت الله تعالى يقول : ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما [ النساء : 64 ] ، وقد جئتك تائبا من ذنبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي وأنشأ يقول :
                يا خير من دفنت بالقاع أعظمه *** فطاب من طيبهن القاع والأكم *** نفسي الفداء لقبر أنت ساكنه *** فيه العفاف وفيه الجود والكرم
                قال العتبي : فغفوت غفوة فرأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول : يا عتبي الحق الأعرابي ، وأخبره بأن الله تعالى قد غفر له

                "As for visiting the grave of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - then this is something that is ordered [in the Shari'ah] and recommended.
                'Ubaydallah reported from Nafi', [who reported] from Ibn 'Umar that the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - said: "Whoever visits my grave, then my intercession will surely be granted to him."
                And it was narrated from al-'Utbi, that he said: "As I was sitting by the grave of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, a Beduin Arab came and said: "O Messenger of Allah, I've found Allah ta'ala saying: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64], so I have come to you repenting from my sins and seeking intercession through you unto my Lord." Then he began to recite poetry:

                O best of those whose bones are buried in the deep earth,
                And from whose fragrance the depth and the height have become sweet,
                May I be the ransom for a grave which thou inhabit,
                And in which are found purity, bounty and munificence!

                Then he left, and I dozed and saw the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - [in my sleep]. He said to me: "O 'Utbi, run after the Beduin and tell him that Allah ta'ala has forgiven him."
                "

                Source: al-Hawi al-Kabir and al-Ahkam al-Sultaniyyah

                Do you see how he also mentions the story of al-'Utbi in this context? And yes the story in itself is not a proof, but when the scholars mention this, this shows that they regarded the Aya 4:64 as general in its meaning and that they supported doing the same as in the story mentioned.

                Before you try to make up your typical "Salafi" claims ("he just mentioned it', "this does not mean that...", etc.) let's see what Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH) - one of the leaders of the "Quburiyyah" and major scholar of the Shafi'iyyah - said:

                ثم يرجع إلى موقفه الأول قبالة وجه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ويتوسل به في حق نفسه ، ويستشفع به إلى ربه سبحانه وتعالى ، ومن أحسن ما يقول ما حكاه الماوردي والقاضي أبو الطيب وسائر أصحابنا عن العتبي مستحسنين له

                "Then he (i.e. the one visiting the grave of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) should return to his original position facing the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, and he should make him a mean for himself and seek intercession through him unto his Lord subhanahu wa ta'ala.
                And the best what can be said [here] is what al-Mawardi (d. 448 AH) and al-Qadhi Abu al-Tayyib (d. 450 AH) and the rest of our [Shafi'i] companions narrated from al-'Utbi and they regarded it as good.
                "

                Source: al-Majmu'

                Is there anything more to be said after this clear-cut statement? The Shafi'iyyah IN GENERAL are upon - to use the words of your 'Abdullah bin Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab in al-Durar al-Saniyyah - this "committing of polytheism" and they would have ALL deserved to be killed if only the Wahhabi call had reached them!
                Did Imam al-Nawawi invent this or did he get this from the previous Shafi'iyyah? Please think about that.

                The problem now is that after your sect first denied that the scholars have allowed that, you changed your statement and said that this happened a little bit before the Najdi call, then you changed and claimed that it started in the time of Ibn Taymiyyah and then you changed another time and claimed that this was not before 600AH. After this post you may claim that this was not before 400AH. So step by step you're acting as if the scholars of this Ummah were pretty much all fools and had no idea of Tawhid,

                So let's get earlier, so that no one from this Ummah remains free from your attacks!:
                In the narration where the Khalifah Abu Ja'far al-Mansur (d. 158 AH) asked Imam Malik (d. 179 AH) whether he should turn his face to the Qiblah to supplicate or towards Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - (and this is in the context of standing in front of his blessed grave and after having greeted him), so Imam Malik answered:

                ولم تصرف وجهك عنه ، وهو وسيلتك ، ووسيلة أبيك آدم - عليه السلام - إلى الله - تعالى - يوم القيامة ؟ بل استقبله ، واستشفع به ، فيشفعه الله ، قال الله - تعالى - : ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم [ النساء : 64 ] الآية

                "How could you turn your face away from him when he is your means (wasilah) and the means of your father Adam - peace be upon him - unto Allah ta'ala on the Day of Resurrection? Nay, face him and ask for his intercession (istashfi` bihi) so that Allah will grant it to you as He said"

                Source: al-Shifa bi Ta'rif Huquq al-Mustafa by the great Maliki Imam al-Qadhi 'Iyadh (d. 544 AH), who reports this from a number scholars!

                What the "Salafis" will say now - as usual when something doesn't suit their whims and desires - "this is weak, Ibn Taymiyyah and his student Fulan said...", but let this known to be them: This is regarded as correct by the Maliki scholars BEFORE and AFTER Ibn Taymiyyah and they acted upon this!


                Now my question: Why is it so easy for me to find scholars supporting this, while you people only have Ibn Taymiyyah and his group? You don't need to respond, just think about it honestly.
                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 18-09-18, 02:49 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                  If intercession is a thing then I want to know how to do it. We can skip all the academics and go straight to the practical application.

                  For example, if I wanted to use intercession to make a dua for rain, how would I go about it?
                  Okay, but let's get more general:

                  If you have an important need, you can do the following (which is clearly supported by the Sunnah!):
                  First take your Wudhu (ablution) and pray two Rak'at. Thereafter you can do the following supplication:
                  "Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through Your Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Messenger of Allah, I turn through you to my Lord in this need of mine, that it be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me."

                  Note that this supplication is based upon the words of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -; the companion 'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - recommended doing this AFTER the death of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and both narrations are correct.

                  Even Ibn Taymiyyah - who loves doubting things when it doesn't suit him - didn't reject their authenticity and acted as if this is a position of one companion only. So all this talk about this issue being not supported by the Salaf al-salih is empty talk and clearly wrong!


                  And I repeat myself again: No matter whether you people agree or not with this position, but is it right to kill people because of this issue?
                  Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 18-09-18, 02:37 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                    Okay, but let's get more general:

                    If you have an important need, you can do the following (which is clearly supported by the Sunnah!):
                    First take your Wudhu (ablution) and pray two Rak'at. Thereafter you can do the following supplication:
                    "Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through Your Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Messenger of Allah, I turn through you to my Lord in this need of mine, that it be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me."

                    Note that this supplication is based upon the words of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -; the companion 'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - recommended doing this AFTER the death of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and both narrations are correct.

                    Even Ibn Taymiyyah - who loves doubting things when it doesn't suit him - didn't reject their authenticity and acted as if this is a position of one companion only. So all this talk about this issue being not supported by the Salaf al-salih is empty talk and clearly wrong!


                    And I repeat myself again: No matter whether you people agree or not with this position, but is it right to kill people because of this issue?
                    OK, you don't want to focus on specifics. I have lots of other questions so I'll post them one at a time.

                    1. Do you believe one can/should seek intercession through anyone that has passed away or is it limited to the messenger of Allah only?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                      That's why I said that one has to accept the authority of the scholars of Islam before discussing these things. The problem is that some of you Western Muslims have been influenced by the materialist and atheist Western thinking and their so called "age of enlightenment".
                      I am not a Western Muslim. I was born into a Hanafi/Ash'ari/Maturdi family.

                      Incorrect assumptions seem to be a staple of your diet.
                      Watch those eyes

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                        So let's get earlier, so that no one from this Ummah remains free from your attacks!:
                        In the narration where the Khalifah Abu Ja'far al-Mansur (d. 158 AH) asked Imam Malik (d. 179 AH) whether he should turn his face to the Qiblah to supplicate or towards Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - (and this is in the context of standing in front of his blessed grave and after having greeted him), so Imam Malik answered:

                        ولم تصرف وجهك عنه ، وهو وسيلتك ، ووسيلة أبيك آدم - عليه السلام - إلى الله - تعالى - يوم القيامة ؟ بل استقبله ، واستشفع به ، فيشفعه الله ، قال الله - تعالى - : ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم [ النساء : 64 ] الآية

                        "How could you turn your face away from him when he is your means (wasilah) and the means of your father Adam - peace be upon him - unto Allah ta'ala on the Day of Resurrection? Nay, face him and ask for his intercession (istashfi` bihi) so that Allah will grant it to you as He said"
                        .
                        Another munqati narration.

                        You don't know a thing about what an authentic report is. Any authentic report?

                        Obviously we will call what is weak is weak. Stop playing the oh now they will say this is weak card.

                        We call a spade a spade. A weak narration or report is weak.

                        Go on post an authentic quote.

                        You know you don't have any. Hence the plea every time. Oh they will say it is weak.
                        Watch those eyes

                        Comment


                        • This thread is perfect. It is a documentation of the desperation of the Ashaa'irah. One weak quote after another.

                          They reject the authentic hadith of the slave girl who looked up to the Heaven to Allaah. They reject it based on the matn. They know the chain is authentic.

                          Here they provide quotes weak in chain. They provide narrations which are corrupt in matn. Double standards. You will find this in their aqiidah books too.

                          True Islam? You decide.

                          True Islam brings people out from the worship of the creation to the creation of Allaah alone. You only ask Him. Only Him.
                          Watch those eyes

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post

                            Another munqati narration.

                            You don't know a thing about what an authentic report is. Any authentic report?

                            Obviously we will call what is weak is weak. Stop playing the oh now they will say this is weak card.

                            We call a spade a spade. A weak narration or report is weak.

                            Go on post an authentic quote.

                            You know you don't have any. Hence the plea every time. Oh they will say it is weak.
                            Zahid al-Kawthari regarding this issue:

                            وهذا هو الذي فعله الحاكم حيث رأى ان الخبر مما قبله مالك فيما روى ابن حميد عنه حيث قال لأبي جعفر المنصور : "..... وهو وسيلتك ووسيلة أبيك آدم عليه السلام " . وبعد أن أقر الإمام مالك رضي الله عنه بصحة الخبر واحتج به زالت تهمة الوهم وقلة الضبط عن عبد الرحمن الذي إنما يقتدي من رماه بذلك بمالك ، وعبد الرحمن بن زيد ليس ممن يرد خبره مطلقاً . وهذا هو الإمام الشافعي يستدل في دين الله ببعض أحاديثه في " الأم " وفي " مسنده " فلا لوم على الحاكم في عده هذا الحديث صحيحاً ، بل هو الصحيح ، إلا عند من يضيق صدره عند سماع فضائل المصطفىﷺ وأما قول مالك لأبي جعفر المذكور فهو ما أخرجه القاضي عياض في " الشفاء بتعريف حقوق المصطفى " بسند جيد وابن حميد في السند هو محمد بن حميد الرازي في الراجح، على خلاف ما ظنه التقي السبكي لكن الرازي هذا ليس حاله كما يريد ان يصوره الشمس بن عبد الهادي حيث حشر قول جميع من تكلم فيه وأهمل كلام من أثنى عليه ، وهو أحد الثلاثة الذين اتصلوا بابن تيمية ، وهم شباب ، فانخدعوا به ، وزاغوا يذكر الجرح ويغفل عن التعديل في الأدلة التي تساق ضد شذوذ شيخه . ومحمد بن حميد هذا روى عن أبو داود والترمذي وابن ماجه وأحمد بن حنبل ، ويحيى بن معين . قال ابن ابي خيثمة : سئل عن أبي معين فقال : ثقة لا بأس به رازي كيّس ، وقال أحمد : لا يزال بالرد علم مادام محمد بن حميد ، وممن أثنى عليه الصاغاني والذهلي . وقال الخليلي في " الإرشاد " كان حافظاً عالماً بهذا الشأن رضيه أحمد ويحي وقال البخاري : فيه نظر ، وليس مثله يتهم في هذا الخبر ، وقد مات سنة 248 عن سن عالية وكان عمره عند وفاة مالك لا يقل عن نحو خمس عشر سنة ، وهم يقبلون رواية ابن خمس في مسند إمامهم ويعقوب بن إسحاق ، لا بأس به كما ذكره الخطيب في تاريخه . وأبو الحسن عبد الله بن محمد بن المنتاب، من أجلّ أصحاب إسماعيل القاضي ، ولاه المقتدر قضاء المدينة المنورة حوالي سنة ثلاثمائة ولم يكن غير الثقات الأفذاذ من أهل العلم ليولّى قضاء المدينة المنورة في ذلك العهد . واسم المنتاب يهم فيه كثير ، وصاحبه محمد بن احمد بن الفرج وثقه السمعاني في " الأنساب " عند ذكر الجزائري ، وأقره ابن الأثير في " اللباب " وأبو الحسن الفهري من الثقات الأثبات مترجم في " العبر " للذهبي . وابن دلهات من ثقاة شيوخ ابن عبد البر مترجم في " صلة " ابن بشكوال ، وهي مطبوعة بمدريد . وابن عبد الهادي يابى قبول هذا الخبر ، لأنه يمس شذوذ شيخه ليس إلا ، أراد ابن المنتاب بسوق هذا الخبر الرد على ما في " مبسوط " شيخه إسماعيل القاضي المالكي المخالف لما رواه ابن وهب ، عن مالك ، وإسماعيل من أهل العراق ، وأهل مصر والمدينة المنورة أعلم بمسائل مالك منهم . على أن إسماعيل لم يسند ما ذكره إلى مالك بل ارسله إرسالاً ، لكنه حيث يوافق هوى إبن عبد الهادي يقبله بدون سؤال عن سنده بخلاف ما هنا ويطريه إطراء يغنيه عن ذكر السند في نظره ، فكأنه لم ير قول داود الأصفهاني فيه ، ولله في خلقه شؤون ، على أنه قد وردت أخبار أخرى في توسل ادم يعضد بعضها بعضاً ، استغنينا عن ذكرها ، اكتفاء بما سطرناه ، لأن الأحاديث السابقة فيها كفاية لغير المتعنت

                            Source: http://www.aljounaid.ma/article.aspx?c=6186
                            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 18-09-18, 05:14 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                              OK, you don't want to focus on specifics. I have lots of other questions so I'll post them one at a time.

                              1. Do you believe one can/should seek intercession through anyone that has passed away or is it limited to the messenger of Allah only?

                              Comment

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