Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than
Firstly بارك الله فيك for correcting me and will avoid mixing issues up unintentionally InshaAllah
I still see the takfeer as valid, in other words, they had a good understanding of what shirk and kufr was, yet still defended grave worshippers and attacked the people of tawheed, this too is riddah
Originally posted by Abu Sulayman
View Post
So that's what you call a defense? Qouting something without even knowing the context!?!
First of all: The people of Huraymila were not that which you people refer to as "grave worshippers".
And another thing: You're mocking other Muslims in the same way the disbelievers say "I thought Islam is peace...". So listen very well: Muslims have the right to defend themselves against ANYONE (whether they are Harbi Kuffar or Khawarij) who is trying to oppress them. Did you get that?
Now let's see what the people of Huraymila actually were: Your historian Ibn Ghannam (d. 1225 AH) mentioned that the following happened in the year 1160 AH):
ثم قدم عليهما ومعه وجوه اهل حريملا والعيينة وعهدهما على الجهاد والقيام بنصرة الدين ولو في اي مكان
"He ('Uthman Ibn Muammar, governor of Al-Uyyayna) came to them (IAW and Ibn Saoud) and there were with him the people of Al-Huraymila and Al-Uyayyna, they pledged to do jihad and stand for triumph of the religion no matter where they are"
- end of the qoute -
(Translation taken from brother Pluma)
Suprise Suprise: The people of Huraymila were supporter of the Wahhabiyyah and even fought under their banner.
But when the scholars warned them against spilling Muslim blood and also when they saw that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab was crossing all limits, they stopped supporting them and stopped making Takfir upon other Muslims. According to Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab this is apostasy, because being against his Takfir is Kufr!
So let's see what Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) said after he had already declared them as apostates:
فإذا قال هؤلاء بألسنتهم: نشهد أن هذا دين الله ورسوله، ونشهد أن المخالف له باطل، وأنه الشرك بالله، غر هذا الكلام ضعيف البصيرة. وأعظم من هذا وأطم أن أهل حريملا ومن وراءهم يصرحون بمسبة الدين، وأن الحق ما عليه أكثر الناس، يستدلون بالكثرة على حسن ما هم فيه من الدين، ويفعلون ويقولون ما هو من أكبر الردة وأفحشها. فإذا قالوا: التوحيد حق والشرك باطل، وأيضا لم يحدثوا في بلدهم أوثانا، جادل الملحد عنهم. وقال: إنهم يقرون أن هذا شرك، وأن التوحيد هو الحق، ولا يضرهم عنده ما هم عليه من السب لدين الله، وبغي العوج له، ومدح الشرك، وذبهم دونه بالمال واليد واللسان
Source: Mufid al-Mustafid
Here he we see him attacking and lying against the people of Huraymila by claiming that they curse the religion of Allah (i.e. they were against Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab). At the same time he admits that they regarded Tawhid as correct and Shirk as batil and that there were no idols in their town (i.e. what he intends here that there were no erected graves or mausoleums in their town).
This means that even according to IAW the poeple of Huraymila were not that which the "Salafis" would refer to as "Quburis"! Did you get that abufulaans?
Actually they did none of this! Even the liar Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab did not accuse them of this (except for "attacking real Tawhid")! You should seriously fear Allah! How many times do you want to make Takfir without having a single proof?
By the way: The ruling for slaughtering for other than Allah depends upon the intention and therefore not necessarily Shirk akbar. Making Tawaf aroung graves is disallowed and again not Shirk akbar (please for God's sake look into some classical Fiqh books before making such claims!).
As for asking the dead: If that which the classical scholars referred to as Tawassul, Tashaffu' and Istighathah is intended, then this is allowed and in no way Shirk. And if the intent is to ask the Anbiya` and Awliya` in the same way one asks Allah ta'ala, then that is of course not allowed, but Takfir is not made, because this issue is again something that is bound to the intention.
As for attacking real Tawhid: Your Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab is guilty of that!
First of all: The people of Huraymila were not that which you people refer to as "grave worshippers".
And another thing: You're mocking other Muslims in the same way the disbelievers say "I thought Islam is peace...". So listen very well: Muslims have the right to defend themselves against ANYONE (whether they are Harbi Kuffar or Khawarij) who is trying to oppress them. Did you get that?
Now let's see what the people of Huraymila actually were: Your historian Ibn Ghannam (d. 1225 AH) mentioned that the following happened in the year 1160 AH):
ثم قدم عليهما ومعه وجوه اهل حريملا والعيينة وعهدهما على الجهاد والقيام بنصرة الدين ولو في اي مكان
"He ('Uthman Ibn Muammar, governor of Al-Uyyayna) came to them (IAW and Ibn Saoud) and there were with him the people of Al-Huraymila and Al-Uyayyna, they pledged to do jihad and stand for triumph of the religion no matter where they are"
- end of the qoute -
(Translation taken from brother Pluma)
Suprise Suprise: The people of Huraymila were supporter of the Wahhabiyyah and even fought under their banner.
But when the scholars warned them against spilling Muslim blood and also when they saw that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab was crossing all limits, they stopped supporting them and stopped making Takfir upon other Muslims. According to Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab this is apostasy, because being against his Takfir is Kufr!
So let's see what Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) said after he had already declared them as apostates:
فإذا قال هؤلاء بألسنتهم: نشهد أن هذا دين الله ورسوله، ونشهد أن المخالف له باطل، وأنه الشرك بالله، غر هذا الكلام ضعيف البصيرة. وأعظم من هذا وأطم أن أهل حريملا ومن وراءهم يصرحون بمسبة الدين، وأن الحق ما عليه أكثر الناس، يستدلون بالكثرة على حسن ما هم فيه من الدين، ويفعلون ويقولون ما هو من أكبر الردة وأفحشها. فإذا قالوا: التوحيد حق والشرك باطل، وأيضا لم يحدثوا في بلدهم أوثانا، جادل الملحد عنهم. وقال: إنهم يقرون أن هذا شرك، وأن التوحيد هو الحق، ولا يضرهم عنده ما هم عليه من السب لدين الله، وبغي العوج له، ومدح الشرك، وذبهم دونه بالمال واليد واللسان
Source: Mufid al-Mustafid
Here he we see him attacking and lying against the people of Huraymila by claiming that they curse the religion of Allah (i.e. they were against Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab). At the same time he admits that they regarded Tawhid as correct and Shirk as batil and that there were no idols in their town (i.e. what he intends here that there were no erected graves or mausoleums in their town).
This means that even according to IAW the poeple of Huraymila were not that which the "Salafis" would refer to as "Quburis"! Did you get that abufulaans?
Actually they did none of this! Even the liar Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab did not accuse them of this (except for "attacking real Tawhid")! You should seriously fear Allah! How many times do you want to make Takfir without having a single proof?
By the way: The ruling for slaughtering for other than Allah depends upon the intention and therefore not necessarily Shirk akbar. Making Tawaf aroung graves is disallowed and again not Shirk akbar (please for God's sake look into some classical Fiqh books before making such claims!).
As for asking the dead: If that which the classical scholars referred to as Tawassul, Tashaffu' and Istighathah is intended, then this is allowed and in no way Shirk. And if the intent is to ask the Anbiya` and Awliya` in the same way one asks Allah ta'ala, then that is of course not allowed, but Takfir is not made, because this issue is again something that is bound to the intention.
As for attacking real Tawhid: Your Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab is guilty of that!
I still see the takfeer as valid, in other words, they had a good understanding of what shirk and kufr was, yet still defended grave worshippers and attacked the people of tawheed, this too is riddah
Comment