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The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

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  • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    You argue with the tongue of the Salafis, you are automatically a salafi.
    I don't argue with the tongue of Salafis, unless you can prove otherwise. Actually I abhor many Salafis like Rabee Al madkhali worshippers.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

    Comment


    • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

      Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
      Who called you guys zindeeq? Why do you love slandering people?

      I don't get it.
      I stand corrected. I think the confusion is how people translate Bidah, some translate it as innovation and some translate it as heresy. And thus an innovator can be a heretic, from that point of view. At the same time people translate zindiq as heretic. I apologize.
      My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

      Comment


      • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

        Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
        I don't argue with the tongue of Salafis, unless you can prove otherwise. Actually I abhor many Salafis like Rabee Al madkhali worshippers.
        Rabee al madkhali is a type of Salafi. Salafism is not a monolith.
        My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

        Comment


        • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

          Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
          Rabee al madkhali is a type of Salafi. Salafism is not a monolith.
          I know for certain there is not a single Salafi group that will accept me as a Salafi.
          You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

          You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

          Comment


          • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

            Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
            Of coure they are, common sense.
            So you'd be able to see these hands?

            Comment


            • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

              Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
              I know some people become incredibly shocked when they realize how crystal clear the aqeedah of the Salaf is that they are can't believe it and call it a 'cool story'
              Like I said, cool story.

              Comment


              • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                You said you are Shadili. Shadili is a sufi tariqah, so you're automatically a Sufi.
                He's an on/off 'Ashari' too.

                Comment


                • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                  Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
                  Nopes I am not. With the exception of Ibn Jawzi I do not know too many others. Guess I have to study harder.
                  Imam Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 596 AH) supported Tafwidh and Ta`wil, while most Hanabilah were Mufawwidhah (which is good) and many of them were quite strictly against Ta`wil. Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH) was not just against Ta`wil, but even against Tafwidh and called it as "one of the worst statements of the people of innovation and atheism". The ironic thing here is that relegating the knowledge of the exact interpretation of the knowledge regarding the Ayat of the Sifat to Allah ta'ala (i.e. Tafwidh) is the Madhhab of the [majority of the] Salaf al-salih not just according to the Asha'irah, but also according to the Hanabilah!
                  Salih bin 'Abd al-'Aziz Al al-Shaykh, one of the Mashayikh of the "Salafis", even admitted in his Sharh al-'Aqidah al-Wasitiyyah that most of the Hanbali Mashayikh of Ibn Taymiyyah were from among the people of Tafwidh.
                  Ibn Taymiyyah believed that Allah ta'ala is subject to changes, while many Hanabilah (even some of the Mushabbihah from among them!) were against this false belief.
                  Ibn Taymiyyah also believed that Allah ta'ala has Sifat 'Ayniyyah (i.e. that which we call as limbs or parts), while many Hanabilah believed that Allah ta'ala is Exalted above being a body or having parts/limbs, etc and would only affirm Sifat as Ma'ani.
                  Ibn Taymiyah believed that there is no first creation, but acknowledged that every individual creation has a beginning (this is a modified version of the statement of the Falasifah, who said that the universe is eternal). I do not know of any Hanbali scholar who held such a false position before him.

                  There are more such kind of examples, but the above should be enough.
                  Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 29-11-15, 11:03 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                    Originally posted by Abu Kamel View Post
                    Are you saying the 4 madhahib advocate while at his grave praying to the Prophet for him to seek Allah's forgiveness for us?
                    I did not say praying, but rather asking. Praying is connected with the belief of divinity/lordship of the one from whom one asks, while asking is simply asking.
                    And yes the scholars of the 4 Madhahib did not see anything wrong with seeking intercession with the best of creation - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - unto one's Lord, because there is nothing wrong in doing that.
                    If it was allowed to ask our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - during his lifetime for his intercession and if it's allowed to do so on the day of judgement (refer to Sahih al-Bukhari), then why should it be wrong to do so in the time between? And I'll repeat my question from a previous post: According to which Shari'ah and which logic is it Shirk to ask the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - to supplicate for one?

                    This a quote from the Hanafi Faqih 'Abdullah bin Mahmud bin Mawdud al-Mawsili (d. 683 AH) [in the context of the Ziyarah]:

                    وقد قال الله تعالى : ( ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا اللهتوابا رحيما ) وقد جئناك ظالمين لأنفسنا ، مستغفرين لذنوبنا ، فاشفع لنا إلى ربك ، وأسأله أن يميتناعلى سنتك ، وأن يحشرنا في زمرتك ، وأن يوردنا حوضك ، وأن يسقينا كأسك غير خزايا ولا نادمين، الشفاعة الشفاعة يا رسول الله ، يقولها ثلاثا : ( ربنا اغفر لنا ولإخواننا الذين سبقونا بالإيمان )الآية .ويبلغه سلام من أوصاه فيقول : السلام عليك يا رسول الله من فلان بن فلان ، يستشفع بك إلىربك فاشفع له ولجميع المسلمين


                    “Allah ta’ala says: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64].
                    So we’ve come to you, having wronged ourselves and asking [Allah] for forgiveness regarding our sins, so intercede for us to your Lord and ask Him that He lets us die upon your Sunnah, and that He gathers us [on the day of reckoning] among your group, and allows us to get to your Hawdh and drink from your bowl without disgrace or regret.
                    Intercession intercession, o Messenger of Allah (al-Shafa'ah al-Shafa'ah, ya Rasulallah) – he (the visitor) should say this thrice -, { “Our Lord, forgive us and those of our brothers who preceded us in faith” } [59:10] [till the end of] the Ayah.
                    [Then] he should deliver the greeting of those who have told him to do so by saying: ‘Peace be upon you, o Messenger of Allah, from Fulan bin Fulan, he seeks intercession through you unto your Lord, so intercede for him and for all believers‘.”


                    Source:
                    al-Ikhtiyar li Ta’lil al-Mukhtar

                    And you will find the recommendation of seeking intercession through the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - during the visitation of his blessed grave in most major Fiqh books of the 4 Madhahib.

                    Comment


                    • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                      Some questions more out of curiosity than anything else.

                      If someone was to ask rasoolullaah at his grave to make dua, how would you ask?

                      Comment


                      • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                        Originally posted by Mohamed Mifxal View Post
                        look at all these shameless Mohammed Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (ra) Haters, the more you hate, the more he'll be uplifted in the sight of Allah.
                        I don't think that one will be uplifted for trying to replace real Tawhid with a fake version of Tawhid. And I also don't think that calling for the mass-slaughter of other Muslims is something good.

                        Originally posted by Mohamed Mifxal View Post
                        He declared kaafir on kaafir
                        According to the original Najdi movement most of you people who are blindly defending them would also be not from among the people of Islam. If you really want to be regarded as Muslims according to the standards of the original Wahhabi movement you'll need to make Takfir upon the Ottomans, the people of Makkah, your own parents (yes this crazyness is indeed mentioned in al-Durar al-Saniyyah!!!) and many many other Muslims.

                        Originally posted by Mohamed Mifxal View Post
                        lthey were not merely visiting graves, but asking for blessings and stuff, This is by default shirk.
                        So seeking blessings by touching the Hajar al-aswad is okay and seeking blessings by drinking from the Zamzam water is also okay, but the moment one seeks blessings through the Master of the first and the last - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - one becomes a Mushrik? Do you actually realize that what you're saying?

                        Comment


                        • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                          I don't think that one will be uplifted for trying to replace real Tawhid with a fake version of Tawhid. And I also don't think that calling for the mass-slaughter of other Muslims is something good.



                          According to the original Najdi movement most of you people who are blindly defending them would also be not from among the people of Islam. If you really want to be regarded as Muslims according to the standards of the original Wahhabi movement you'll need to make Takfir upon the Ottomans, the people of Makkah, your own parents (yes this crazyness is indeed mentioned in al-Durar al-Saniyyah!!!) and many many other Muslims.



                          So seeking blessings by touching the Hajar al-aswad is okay and seeking blessings by drinking from the Zamzam water is also okay, but the moment one seeks blessings through the Master of the first and the last - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - one becomes a Mushrik? Do you actually realize that what you're saying?
                          ok, enough of your trolling

                          Comment


                          • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                            Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                            I don't think that one will be uplifted for trying to replace real Tawhid with a fake version of Tawhid. And I also don't think that calling for the mass-slaughter of other Muslims is something good.



                            According to the original Najdi movement most of you people who are blindly defending them would also be not from among the people of Islam. If you really want to be regarded as Muslims according to the standards of the original Wahhabi movement you'll need to make Takfir upon the Ottomans, the people of Makkah, your own parents (yes this crazyness is indeed mentioned in al-Durar al-Saniyyah!!!) and many many other Muslims.



                            So seeking blessings by touching the Hajar al-aswad is okay and seeking blessings by drinking from the Zamzam water is also okay, but the moment one seeks blessings through the Master of the first and the last - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - one becomes a Mushrik? Do you actually realize that what you're saying?
                            Your seeking blessing from the almighty not from the rock
                            And if your parent are engaged in mushrikeen acts and u recanise it the call a spade a spade it shirik
                            Last edited by Bilal el; 30-11-15, 08:07 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
                              " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

                              Comment


                              • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                                Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
                                Linguistically speaking, the literal meaning of hand cannot be a sifat (an Attribute), in Arabic hand is referred to as a naat (trait), not a sifat (attribute).

                                "Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand." (12:2)

                                It is one of the points that Ibn Jawzi was criticizing the Hanbalis of his time, just because a sentence is in a possessive form (the hand of), doesn't mean it is an attribute (sifat).

                                Ibn Jawzi said, "And those writers who I have mentioned have erred in seven matters. The first of them is that they called the "reports" (the narrations) 'Attributes,' when they are merely annexations/possessive forms. And not every possessive form is an attribute. For Allah, High is He has said, "And I have blown into him from My Spirit' (Al Hijr:29). And Allah doesn't have an attribute known as a 'spirit." So those who have called 'the possessive form' (idafa) 'an attribute' are guilty of innovation."

                                The linguist, Thalab says, "A Na't is a description given to a specfic part of the body like the word 'lame' (araj). A 'Sifa' (attribute) is for non-specificity (umoon) , like the word 'magnificent' (azeem) and 'generous' (kareem). So Allah is described with a 'sifa". But He is not described with a 'na't'." (Taaj al Aroos)

                                And Allah knows best.
                                So what exactly was Ibn Battaal, who Ibn Hajar quotes in Fath, saying when he said:

                                في هذه الآية إثبات يدين لله ، وهما صفتان من صفات ذاته وليستا بجارحتين خلافا للمشبهة من المثبتة ، وللجهمية من المعطلة

                                In this Verse is affirmation of Two Hands belonging to Allah and both [of them] are two Sifah from the Sifaat of His Dhaat and they both are not limbs [which is] opposed to the Mushabbiha and the Jahmiyyah...[1]
                                Watch those eyes

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