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The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

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  • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Salamun 'alaykum,
    (Taqlid is not allowed in 'Aqidah!)
    This is disagreed upon [1]
    Watch those eyes

    Comment


    • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

      look at all these shameless Mohammed Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (ra) Haters, the more you hate, the more he'll be uplifted in the sight of Allah. He declared kaafir on kaafir, they were not merely visiting graves, but asking for blessings and stuff, This is by default shirk.

      Comment


      • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
        Okay. Who is the "more knowledgable person" that you want to refer to? Would you accept the ruling that the Jumhur of the Fuqaha` of the 4 Madhahib mentioned?
        If you read the beggining pages of tareekh al najd then you will find that according the them the people were upon clear shirk Akbar, we are talking about asking dead people for help, making sujood to graves
        They were thus fought as mushrikeen,
        If what they said is true then they were upon clear shirk
        ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

        Comment


        • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

          Originally posted by Abu Kamel View Post
          Are you saying the 4 madhahib advocate while at his grave praying to the Prophet for him to seek Allah's forgiveness for us?
          I think he is referring to what the likes of Al-Nawawi, Al-Qurtubi, etc. have drawn evidence from, namely حديث العتبي

          Based on it they say that when you visit the grave of the Messenger of Allah (:saw:) you should say:

          وقد جئتك مستغفرا من ذنبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي

          I know Subki really promoted this. Al-Nawawi used this Hadith in his book الأذكار and Al-Qurtubi has mentioned it in his Tafsir [1]

          Abu Ishaaq Burhaan Al-Deen Muhammad bin Abd Allah Al-Hanbali seems to mention the incident in his book [2]. It would be nice to say what the OP has to say about this. He seems to pay this forum a visit after a long time though.

          Of course, the authenticity of the Hadith all of them use does not seem to reach the level of being used for evidence.
          Watch those eyes

          Comment


          • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

            Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
            I think he is referring to what the likes of Al-Nawawi, Al-Qurtubi, etc. have drawn evidence from, namely حديث العتبي

            Based on it they say that when you visit the grave of the Messenger of Allah (:saw:) you should say:

            وقد جئتك مستغفرا من ذنبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي

            I know Subki really promoted this. Al-Nawawi used this Hadith in his book الأذكار and Al-Qurtubi has mentioned it in his Tafsir [1]

            Abu Ishaaq Burhaan Al-Deen Muhammad bin Abd Allah Al-Hanbali seems to mention the incident in his book [2]. It would be nice to say what the OP has to say about this. He seems to pay this forum a visit after a long time though.

            Of course, the authenticity of the Hadith all of them use does not seem to reach the level of being used for evidence.
            don't be nice brother, say fabricated.

            Comment


            • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

              Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
              The reason they didn't say take the zahir is because it was simple and no one at the time understood it wrong, later however people deviated thus the need for the term zahir was introduced by the scholars,
              I know what you believe, but you cannot prove it.

              Ibn Rajab was from the Khalaf, why didn't he say the Salafus Saleh affirmed the literal meaning?

              Ibn Rajab al Hanbali said, “The correct position in all of this is the position of the Righteous Salaf in their leaving the verses and hadiths concerning the Attributes as they came without explanation, asking how or likening them to creation. There is nothing at all contravening this position that is authentically reported from them, especially Imam Ahmad. Neither is anything reported from them proving that they probed into their meanings or propounded analogies and similitudes for them. This, even though there some who lived close to the time of Ahmad who did do some of this, following the way of Maqqatil, but they are not to be followed in this. Those who should be followed are the Imam of Islam such as ibn al Mubarak, Malik, Thawri, Awza’I, Shafi, Ahmad, Ishaq, Abu ‘Ubaid and their likes.” (Fadhl ‘Ilm al-Salaf ‘ala ‘Ilm al-Khalaf )

              Ibn Qudamah was from the Khalaf, why didn't he say the Salafus Saleh affirmed the literal meaning?

              Ibn Qudamah said, "The madhab of the Salaf, may Allah have mercy on them, is to believe in the attributes of Allah, Exalted in Highness, and His names by which He described Himself, in the verses of His revelation and upon the tongue of the His Messenger without adding to or subtracting from them; without transgressing (limits) against them, without explaining them (tafsir) and not interpreting them (tawil) in a way that contradicts their apparent meanings." (Dhamm al Tawil)

              And both of these scholars came after Ibn Jawzi who criticized the Hanbalis for taking the literal meaning of these unclear verses and hadiths concerning Allah.

              Imam Ibn Jawzi said, "The second error is that they (The dissenters of the Hanbali madhab) said, "These hadiths are amongst the ambiguous and none know the true meaning except Allah, Exalted is He." However at the same time they state, "We bear and understand them according to their literal meaning." How astonishing! A phrase whose meaning only Allah knows (for certain), what literal meaning can it then have? What then are the literal meanings of al istiwa (establishment) except "sitting" and al nuzul (descending) anything but moving from one place to another.?" (Daf Shubah al Tashbih bi Akaff al Tanzih -Rebuttal of the Insinuations of Anthropomorphism at the Hand of Divine Transcendence.)


              I would say there is a need to clarify this point in history for both of these scholars, but they didn't.


              And Allah knows best.
              Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 29-11-15, 06:45 PM.
              My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

              Comment


              • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
                The reason they didn't say take the zahir is because it was simple and no one at the time understood it wrong, later however people deviated thus the need for the term zahir was introduced by the scholars,
                Exactly what I tried to say with my car example.
                You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                Comment


                • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                  Originally posted by Fais View Post
                  Cool story.
                  I know some people become incredibly shocked when they realize how crystal clear the aqeedah of the Salaf is that they are can't believe it and call it a 'cool story'
                  You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                  You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                  Comment


                  • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                    Exactly what I tried to say with my car example.
                    I understand what you believe, but you cannot prove it.

                    You cannot prove it was the belief of the Salafus Saleh. You people who require so much proof from us for group dhikr, dhikr of the name of Allah and declare us Ahlul BIdah wal Hawaa etc, when we don't prove it to your standard, yet you cannot produce a single clear proof for this point in Aqida, a science more important then fiqh.

                    You give us such a high standard for proving group dhikr, that when same standard is applied for your point in Aqida regarding the dhahir, you guys unable to live up to that standard.

                    I don't get it.
                    Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 30-11-15, 12:54 AM.
                    My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                    Comment


                    • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                      Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
                      I understand what you believe, but you cannot prove it.

                      You cannot prove it was the belief of the Salafus Saleh. You people who require so much proof from us for group dhikr, dhikr of the name of Allah and declare us Ahlul BIdah wal Hawaa and Zindiq etc, when we don't prove it to your standard, yet you cannot produce a single clear proof for this point in Aqida, a science more important then fiqh.

                      You give us such a high standard for proving group dhikr, that when same standard is applied for your point in Aqida regarding the dhahir, you guys unable to live up to that standard.

                      I don't get it.
                      Who called you guys zindeeq? Why do you love slandering people?

                      I don't get it.
                      You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                      You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                      Comment


                      • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                        Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                        Who called you guys zindeeq? Why do you love slandering people?

                        I don't get it.

                        I've been called a zindiq by a Salafi, but I will look to see if any of your scholars have called us such. If I cannot find any of your scholars calling us this, I will apologize.
                        My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                        Comment


                        • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                          Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
                          I've been called a zindiq by a Salafi, but I will look to see if any of your scholars have called us such. If I cannot find any of your scholars calling us this, I will apologize.
                          For the umpeenth time, I am not, not, not, not, NOT a Salafi.
                          You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                          You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                          Comment


                          • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                            Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                            For the umpeenth time, I am not, not, not, not, NOT a Salafi.
                            I don't consider myself sufi, yet people call me sufi all the time.
                            My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                            Comment


                            • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                              Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
                              I don't consider myself sufi, yet people call me sufi all the time.
                              You said you are Shadili. Shadili is a sufi tariqah, so you're automatically a Sufi.
                              You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                              You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                              Comment


                              • Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                                Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                                You said you are Shadili. Shadili is a sufi tariqah, so you're automatically a Sufi.
                                You argue with the tongue of the Salafis, you are automatically a salafi.
                                My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                                Comment

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