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The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

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  • Abu julaybeeb
    replied
    and even with their works its very complicated
    and its not just about following the dhaahir of the text
    that is why there are ghulaat today like hazimis
    doing chain takfir

    if books like durar as saniyya were gone through with shuyookh instead of independently where misinterpretations occur then it would be a different story

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  • Abu julaybeeb
    replied
    are u ashari/matureedi savo234

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  • Abu julaybeeb
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Abu julaybeeb, who told you that anything you say is from the Musallamat?!
    Who told you that Istighatha is a justified ground for Takfir in the first place?
    And: What will you do about Tashaffu', which is explicitly allowed by the scholars of ALL 4 Madhahib? Your Najdi forefathers killed people because of this position!!
    i dont want to hear from your ashari beliefs

    istigatha to the dead is the same as what kuffar of quraysh did
    Allah said invoke me
    not invoke others

    this is shirk akbar
    just because another alim permitted it or said its haram or biddah doesnt mean hes correct and doesnt mean im obliged to follow him

    Last edited by Abu julaybeeb; 16-03-19, 05:07 PM.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Abu julaybeeb, who told you that anything you say is from the Musallamat?!
    Who told you that Istighatha is a justified ground for Takfir in the first place?
    And: What will you do about Tashaffu', which is explicitly allowed by the scholars of ALL 4 Madhahib? Your Najdi forefathers killed people because of this position!!

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by savo234 View Post

    Abu Sulayman, I am open to investigate this thing without bias but have you read this book on Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab by Jalal Abu alRub called "Biography and mission of Muhammad ibn Abdul wahab" ?
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 16-03-19, 04:45 PM.

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  • Abu julaybeeb
    replied
    and the gia had military who went undercover pretending to be mujahideen who then started killimg people to make gia look bad

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  • Abu julaybeeb
    replied
    Originally posted by savo234 View Post

    Have you even read Tarikh al Najd by Ibn Ghannam, you have no idea of what you are talking about. The Najdis have made takfir of Ottomans and not just Ottomans, they made takfir of anyone who did'nt make takfir of Ottomans. They made takfir of people of Huraymila led by Sulayman Ibn Abdul Wahhab who merely DISAGREED on takfir and were not themselves involved in any of bidah. If that is not extremism then I do not know what extremism is.

    These "aimah" clearly followed kharijite path. Infact in Tarikh al Najd, Ibn Ghannam always refers to his jamah as THE MUSLIMEEN and opposition as MURTADEEN/MUSHRIKEEN. This was the path of ISIS khwarij who made takfir of every sunni group in Shaam, called their own group THE JAMAH of MUSLIMEEN .

    Unless you have same beliefs as these dwaish, there is no way someone can justify gross stuff like that.

    How about you people have some wala towards thousands of muslims from the Ummah of Muhammad(sa) who were butchered by the likes of GIA in Algeria, ISIS in Syria and Iraq ? How about you have some wala for the people of Huraymila who were takfir'ed by MIAW ?

    Plus you clearly avoided the quote of ABU QATADAH who himself has been on the edge..... Even he admitted ghulu among Najdis....Syrian Salafi Jihadis and founders of Ahrar al Sham like Abu Yazn al Shami called out this Najdi manhaj for what it is.
    no i havent read it
    but i will now that u said it

    however if they made takfir due to it being a clear matter like huraymila not making takfir on grave worshippers than that is fine or if the hujjah was established on huraymila then they can make takfir as huraymila would be doing kufr juhood due to knoeing the information after hujjah and still rejecting the texts and not making takfir
    thats not ghulu

    idc what qatada says
    and u talk about some random guy thay completely fell off his own manhaj
    Last edited by Abu julaybeeb; 16-03-19, 02:42 PM.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Know that even that criminal al-Maliki - may Allah ta'ala give him what he deserves! - used ISI in 2014 (which had mutated into ISIL at that time) for his own goals! He himself told his soldiers to leave Mosul to a small number of ISIL fighters (and this is something that everyone in 'Iraq knows!) and this was in order to stop the protests against oppression in the Sunni regions and in order to be able to bomb the 'Iraqi Sunni cities later on and make demographic changes! And this is exactley what happened later on.

    Today we have an 'Iraq where the North is almost ruled independetely of the rest and where the people have not received their full salaries since 2014 (this month they're receiving it for the first time fully again!), the regions in the middle have been heavily bombarded and many people can still not return to their homes and many regions in the South (especially Basra) have not even clean water or electricity.

    And then some youngsters living in the West - who basically have no idea of classical Islam whatsoever!!! - are trying to tell us how great these "Salafi" groups are. We ask Allah ta'ala for well-being!
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 16-03-19, 02:27 PM.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    An example for my second statement (i.e. that America uses these "Salafi" militants to destroy any justified struggle against America and the West) would be 'Iraq.

    This will be inshallah explained more in detail in the following post.
    The events in 'Iraq:

    In 2003 the United States of America - a state that originally was build upon oppressing, terrorizing and killing the native American population - decided to send its criminal troops to 'Iraq - the land of the two rivers - based upon the lie that 'Iraq was in possession of weapons of mass destruction.
    The American state knew of course that there were no such weapons, but used this lie as a justification to occupy the land of the two rivers and this was their first major step in changing the borders and the demographics in the Middle East. In accordance with the Zionist Yinon Plan this occupation would lead to the partition of the 'Iraqi state into many parts based upon the different ethnicities, schools of thoughts and religions. After that the other states in the Middle East would follow in this plan (and what we're seeing today in Syria is part of this plan!).
    Know that 'Iraq was once the strongest Arab country in the region and that is why they started with 'Iraq

    After 'Iraq's occupation the American troops started to oppress the people of 'Iraq and try to humiliate its people. Soon resistance groups were formed to fight the criminal American occupiers and to free the land of the two rivers from their oppression and disbelief.
    The members of these resistance groups were first and foremost the local people. In regions like Diyala, Mosul, al-Anbar and Salah al-Din they were mostly Sunni Arabs, while in the south they were mostly Shi'a Arabs. In the regions of Tal A'far, Kirkuk and Diyala there were also Turkmen fighters (who are also either Sunni or Shi'a).
    Kurds (other than some belonging to Ansar al-Islam) took almost not part in this resistance, because they were still dreaming of their independent state and thought that serving the American interests would bring them nearer to their goal.
    The only 'Iraqi "Salafi" resistance group was Ansar al-Islam. Then there was another "Salafi" group which was al-Qa'ida in 'Iraq. In the beginning it was almost exclusively made off foreign fighters.
    So in the beginning the absolute majority of the resistance fighters were 'Iraqis and the absolute majority of them were non-Salafis (because until the occupation "Salafism" was something completely alien to 'Iraqis).

    The resistance was getting stronger day by day and America was losing members of their troops every day. Especially in Sunni regions they saw hell on Earth, because they could not trespass these regions without getting attacked.
    At this point the Americans were basically losing the war and started to think of a new strategy. What came to their mind was the classical divide-and-conquer-strategy and the best group for that was Zarqawi's group (i.e. al-Qa'ida in 'Iraq) and that was because of two main reasons: One of them is that they were non-'Iraqis and the other was them being "Salafis". So there was two main points which made them different from all the other resistance fighters.

    America started to highlight the role of al-Qa'ida in 'Iraq and to exaggerate their strength beyond limits (with the above mentioned divide-and-counqer intention of course!). The foreign "Salafi" fighters started now to think of themselves even greater than they already did. Just imagine: Their average member thought of himself of being much more knowledgable than 'Iraqi Sunni scholars, who had studied the religion in a classical way for years upon years. This is the amount of Kibr that "Salafism" had put into their minds!

    Zarqawi's group started doing two things:
    1) Instead of concentrating on fighting the occupiers like the rest of the resistance fighters, they started to try to control the different Sunni regions of 'Iraq. When they would control a region they would put some idiotic and ignorant youngsters as leaders and as judges and claim that this is how Islam should be implemented. Add to this: They had a lot of corrupt people among them, who would use their positions in order to steal from the local people and do other corrupt things.
    2) They started targeting the Shi'a without any justified reason. This included attacking normal civilians, religious leaders and their religious sites. This made the Shi'a in 'Iraq ask help from Iran.

    From there on everything went downwards. In the Sunni regions the resistance fighters were getting more and more displeased with the actions of the foreign fighters, who now were hellbent on ruling over the local population and acting as if everyone has to follow their views and obey them. Zarqawi's group then started attacking the other resistance groups and killing Sunni scholars and Mashayikh who critisized their wrong behaviour and actions. At the same time Zarqawi's group kept on and on targetting the Shi'a population, which led to the formation of Shi'a death squads.
    In 2005 in the Sunni regions the Sahwa was formed in order to fight against these foreign fighers, who had started to terrorize the 'Iraqi population as a whole. America started to give money to the Sahwa fighters, because this was serving their divide-and-conquer-strategy even further.
    What had started as a fight against the occupiers was getting more and more a fight between the resistance groups.

    2006 al-Qa'ida formed a fake Majlis al-Shura and proclaimed their fake "Islamic State of Iraq". They went as far as disallowing the rest of the resistance fighters to fight against the occupiers if it was not under their command and their rule. They demanded Bay'a by force from the Sunni tribes and started killing more and more Sunni tribal leaders and scholars.

    (On a side note: When they proclaimed their fake "Islamic State" they proclaimed a Saudi guy in his 20s as the head judge of the state. How for God's sake is it possible to turn such a young person into a head judge?! This should be enough for you to know that they lacked profession in every aspect to lead a State.
    And even this Saudi guy - who was extreme in his views like them and there is even a video where he burns (!) some 'Iraqi Sunnis whom he accused of apostasy! - could not bear the corruption of this so called "Islamic State" (he wrote a letter to the central al-Qa'ida where he mentions some of the corruptions) and left them and went to Afghanistan.)

    At this stage the people started to forget about the occupation forces and the fight had become a full-scale civil war: Sunnis vs Shi'as, Shi'as vs Salafis, Sunnis vs foreign Salafis, ISI (formerly al-Qa'ida in 'Iraq) vs resistance groups, Sahwa vs ISI, Sahwa vs Shi'a death squads, etc.

    This is exactly what the Americans had hoped for. From there on the number of their troops being killed and injured got lower and lower and their control got stronger and stronger again. The rest is history.

    Do you now see how these foreign "Salafi" groups destroyed a justified struggle and turned it into a civil war? And this is something that these foreign "Salafis" always do.
    That is why I'm saying that America uses them for their own goals!
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 16-03-19, 01:44 PM.

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  • savo234
    replied
    Originally posted by Musbah View Post
    Yasir Qadhi is your evidence? Like the shiekh said in the video. All his writings are there for all to read. If it appears that he made too much takfir for you then know that there was a lot of kufr/shirk happening around him at the time. He called it like he saw it. And he used the Quran and Sunnah to do it. And Allah Knows Best.
    Have you assumed that MIAW is Ma'sum that if he makes takfir then the the one takfired upon must be a mushrik. What an absolutely despicable argument that is. MIAW made chain takfir and yes that is for everyone to see in his writings. He made takfir of people of Huraymila who merely disagreed with takfir and had nothing to do with bad practices and venerating grave.

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  • savo234
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

    albani had irja in aqeedah
    second of all he is not an aqeedah specialist he is a muhadith

    aimmah najd did not have ghulu in takfir
    maybe you think that because they said the people who do istigatha to the dead are committing shirk or they made takfir on ottomans or people in jazeera
    (who at the time were committing shirk)

    of course many asharis and matureedis think istigatha to the dead is permissable and some think its haram so they would consider it extreme but its not
    they were just wrong (asharis and matureedis)

    yasir qhadi is a scholar for dollar
    his aqeedah is all over the place from someone who went from hating shia to loving them
    and saying wala wal bara is not needed until you have a state(or something along those lines)
    dawah man also exposed him for more mistakes
    Have you even read Tarikh al Najd by Ibn Ghannam, you have no idea of what you are talking about. The Najdis have made takfir of Ottomans and not just Ottomans, they made takfir of anyone who did'nt make takfir of Ottomans. They made takfir of people of Huraymila led by Sulayman Ibn Abdul Wahhab who merely DISAGREED on takfir and were not themselves involved in any of bidah. If that is not extremism then I do not know what extremism is.

    These "aimah" clearly followed kharijite path. Infact in Tarikh al Najd, Ibn Ghannam always refers to his jamah as THE MUSLIMEEN and opposition as MURTADEEN/MUSHRIKEEN. This was the path of ISIS khwarij who made takfir of every sunni group in Shaam, called their own group THE JAMAH of MUSLIMEEN .

    Unless you have same beliefs as these dwaish, there is no way someone can justify gross stuff like that.

    How about you people have some wala towards thousands of muslims from the Ummah of Muhammad(sa) who were butchered by the likes of GIA in Algeria, ISIS in Syria and Iraq ? How about you have some wala for the people of Huraymila who were takfir'ed by MIAW ?

    Plus you clearly avoided the quote of ABU QATADAH who himself has been on the edge..... Even he admitted ghulu among Najdis....Syrian Salafi Jihadis and founders of Ahrar al Sham like Abu Yazn al Shami called out this Najdi manhaj for what it is.
    Last edited by savo234; 16-03-19, 09:57 AM.

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  • Abu julaybeeb
    replied
    Originally posted by savo234 View Post
    So with some investigation, I found a number of things.

    1) Sheikh Yasir Qadhi has repented from favorably viewing MIAW, instead he has accepted that MIAW was a takfiri and ISIS derives its ideas from MIAW.

    2) Thats not new, a lof ot Salafi Jihadis repented after getting takfir-ed by ISIS and realizing the deeper problem at hand. Abu Yazn al Shami of Ahrar al Sham publicly repented from SJ Manhaj and called Wahhabism as the root of kharijism of ISIS.

    3) Even some top salafi scholars like Albani(rh) have at the least accepted that there was Ghulu in Najdi Da'wah, they just fall short of labelling him an outright kharijite.

    --> I dont agree with many things being said by Abu Sulayman, however his take on Najdism and takfiri mentality in it is correct.
    albani had irja in aqeedah
    second of all he is not an aqeedah specialist he is a muhadith

    aimmah najd did not have ghulu in takfir
    maybe you think that because they said the people who do istigatha to the dead are committing shirk or they made takfir on ottomans or people in jazeera
    (who at the time were committing shirk)

    of course many asharis and matureedis think istigatha to the dead is permissable and some think its haram so they would consider it extreme but its not
    they were just wrong (asharis and matureedis)

    yasir qhadi is a scholar for dollar
    his aqeedah is all over the place from someone who went from hating shia to loving them
    and saying wala wal bara is not needed until you have a state(or something along those lines)
    dawah man also exposed him for more mistakes

    Leave a comment:


  • Musbah
    replied
    Yasir Qadhi is your evidence? Like the shiekh said in the video. All his writings are there for all to read. If it appears that he made too much takfir for you then know that there was a lot of kufr/shirk happening around him at the time. He called it like he saw it. And he used the Quran and Sunnah to do it. And Allah Knows Best.

    Leave a comment:


  • savo234
    replied
    Originally posted by Musbah View Post

    It refutes your nonsense.
    It has done no refutation. The truth is for everyone to see. You are using follower of someone to support him, nothing impartial about it. There is a huge trend of salafi scholars accepting outright ghulu in MIAW's approach, I even have an audio of Sheikh Albani(rh), the syrian scholars like Abu Yazn(rh repented, even Abu Qatadah admits extremism among Najdis. Yasir Qadhi has come out bluntly. I guess when the ship is sinking, the Najdis have nothing except straws to hold on to.

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  • Musbah
    replied
    Originally posted by savo234 View Post

    What good does this do ? The facts are there for every one to see. Even a cursory read of Tarikh al Najd would validate the claim of MIAW's gross abuse of Takfir.
    It refutes your nonsense.

    Leave a comment:

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