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The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Originally posted by Ahki Muhammad View Post
    Most of your time here are "refuting salafis", especially in regards to matters which Salafis are not even wrong in. Do you consider Imam Malik, Imam Ahmed and other great scholars of Islam as "Salafis who describe Allah as Christians"?

    The issue in regards to the Najdi da'wah has nothing to do with these issues but to do with takfeer and shedding of Muslim blood.

    That is not to say that Sufees are any better.
    Imam Malik, Imam Shafi and the other righteous scholars did not follow the Aqida promoted by the Salafis.

    Where did the four Imams say Allah's Hand, Face and Eyes are to be taken upon their literal or apparent meaning (ala Dhahiri)???

    Comment


      Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

      Sucking Ahlul Biddah Wal Hawa!

      ALLAH cannot be compared to anything because there is nothing like him.

      "Nor is there to Him any equivalent." - Surah Ikhlas Last Ayah

      "[He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing." - Surah Shura 11th Ayah

      We cannot compare ALLAH, It is your blame to Salafis which is actually base-less. Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamah believes that it is must to believe as it is mentioned, we are salafis and we don't make taweels on understanding with our mind. It is far of human's mind to even think about his creator that how it looks like etc. Actually, it is you sufis. Your Maulana Zakariya says in fadaail-e-sadaqat that "I am your shadow and I am what you are" to ALLAH. Naodobillah.

      "Produce your proof if you are truthful"

      You guys sucks and are liars, may The Lord guide you OR destroy you, based on what you deserve actually.

      http://islamqa.info/en/166843

      I am not interested in any fruitless debate with any of brillos or sufis. I do not have enough time for you guys. Alhamdulillah, there is a lot of productive things to do instead of rub my eyes on your jahalah!
      Last edited by muhammadwahaj; 26-11-15, 05:12 PM.
      Nasheeds By Al-Munshid Muhammad Al-Wahaj


      Comment


        Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

        Evil people should move out!
        We are here to rule with right kind of movement!
        And who are you?
        Well, Abdullah!!!
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY2eP_Hceq4

        Comment


          Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

          Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
          Which 'wahhabis' have you talked to online? Did they even claim to be 'Wahhabis' or is it personal assumption that they were 'Wahahbis'? No I am not, since there is no such thing.
          Wahhabhism is what the majority of people follow in Saudi Arabia primarily. It has an entire history. So It's your opinion if you think there is no such thing but it exists regardless of what you think.

          Comment


            Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

            Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
            Real hands means literal hands or apparent hands, the hands that comes to the mind of someone who knows the Arabic language, as oppose to affirming what Allah and His Messenger :saw: has come with in the Quran and Sunnah, and saying Allah has a hand in a manner that befits His Majesty.

            Not real vs fake.
            حدثنا عبد الله ثنا أبي ثنا عفان ثنا حماد بن سلمة أنا إسحاق بن عبد الله يعنى بن أبي طلحة عن عبيد الله بن مقسم عن بن عمر : ان رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم قرأ هذه الآية ذات يوم على المنبر { وما قدروا الله حق قدره والأرض جميعا قبضته يوم القيامة والسموات مطويات بيمينه سبحانه وتعالى عما يشركون } ورسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم يقول هكذا بيده ويحركها يقبل بها ويدبر يمجد الرب نفسه أنا الجبار أنا المتكبر أنا الملك أنا العزيز أنا الكريم فرجف برسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم المنبر حتى قلنا ليخرن به


            Abdullah – Abdullah’s Father – Affan – Hammad bin Salamah – Ishaaq bin Abdullah (i.e. bin Abi Talha) – ‘Obaidillah bin Muqsim – Ibn Umar: The Messenger of Allah peace be upon him recited this ayah on the pulpit one day “They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand. Glorified is He, and High is He above all that they associate as partners with Him!” (Surah 39:67) and Allah’s Messenger peace be upon him said like this with his hand moving it back and forth. The Lord glorifies Himself saying “I am the All Compeller, I am the Proud, I am the King, I am the Mighty, I am the Generous”. The Messenger of Allah peace be upon him began to shiver on the pulpit until we said it will collapse with him.

            حدثنا يحيى بن أيوب العلاف المصري ثنا سعيد بن أبي مريم أنا ابن أبي حازم ثنا أبو حازم عن عبيد الله بن مقسم أنه سمع عبد الله بن عمر : يقول : رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم على المنبر وهو يقول : ( يأخذ الجبار سماواته وأرضه بيديه ) وقبض رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم يده وجعل يقبضها ويبسطها ثم قال : ( فيقول : أنا الرحمن أنا الملك أين الجبارون أين المتكبرون ) وتمايل رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم عن يمينه وعن شماله حتى نظرت إلى المنبر يتحرك من أسفل شيء منه حتى أقول أساقط هو برسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم

            Yahya bin Ayub Al 'Alaaf Al Masri - Sa'eed bin Abi Maryam - Ibn Abi Hazmi - Abu Hazim - ‘Obaidillah bin Muqsim - Abdullah ibn Umar said: I saw the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him on the pulpit saying "The All Compeller will take His heavens and earth in His Hand" and the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him clasped his hand continuously clasping and unfolding it. Then he said "Then He will say: I am the Most Gracious, I am the King. Where are the ones who are arrogant and proud?". Then Allah's Messenger peace be upon him started swaying left and right until I saw the pulpit move from its bottom until I said that it is going to collapse with the Prophet peace be upon him on it.
            You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

            You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

            Comment


              Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

              Originally posted by Mandatory125 View Post
              Wahhabhism is what the majority of people follow in Saudi Arabia primarily. It has an entire history. So It's your opinion if you think there is no such thing but it exists regardless of what you think.
              What a kafir like you has to say regarding 'Wahhabism' is absolutely and utterly worthless, considering even many Muslims have fallen for the Wahhabi myth.
              You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

              You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

              Comment


                Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                if wahhabism was a myth then so is sufism. (not sure if i got the grammar right lol)
                Last edited by budi.sudaryo; 26-11-15, 10:37 PM.
                I'm on a strict time management regiment and have to limit my time online. Therefore I have to reply selectively. Please don't be offended if I ignore your questions. :jkk:

                Comment


                  Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                  Originally posted by budi.sudaryo View Post
                  if wahhabism was a myth then so was sufism.
                  Completely false analogy. The term Sufi was invented and is used by Sufis themselves.
                  You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                  You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                  Comment


                    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                    حدثنا عبد الله ثنا أبي ثنا عفان ثنا حماد بن سلمة أنا إسحاق بن عبد الله يعنى بن أبي طلحة عن عبيد الله بن مقسم عن بن عمر : ان رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم قرأ هذه الآية ذات يوم على المنبر { وما قدروا الله حق قدره والأرض جميعا قبضته يوم القيامة والسموات مطويات بيمينه سبحانه وتعالى عما يشركون } ورسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم يقول هكذا بيده ويحركها يقبل بها ويدبر يمجد الرب نفسه أنا الجبار أنا المتكبر أنا الملك أنا العزيز أنا الكريم فرجف برسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم المنبر حتى قلنا ليخرن به


                    Abdullah – Abdullah’s Father – Affan – Hammad bin Salamah – Ishaaq bin Abdullah (i.e. bin Abi Talha) – ‘Obaidillah bin Muqsim – Ibn Umar: The Messenger of Allah peace be upon him recited this ayah on the pulpit one day “They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand. Glorified is He, and High is He above all that they associate as partners with Him!” (Surah 39:67) and Allah’s Messenger peace be upon him said like this with his hand moving it back and forth. The Lord glorifies Himself saying “I am the All Compeller, I am the Proud, I am the King, I am the Mighty, I am the Generous”. The Messenger of Allah peace be upon him began to shiver on the pulpit until we said it will collapse with him.

                    حدثنا يحيى بن أيوب العلاف المصري ثنا سعيد بن أبي مريم أنا ابن أبي حازم ثنا أبو حازم عن عبيد الله بن مقسم أنه سمع عبد الله بن عمر : يقول : رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم على المنبر وهو يقول : ( يأخذ الجبار سماواته وأرضه بيديه ) وقبض رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم يده وجعل يقبضها ويبسطها ثم قال : ( فيقول : أنا الرحمن أنا الملك أين الجبارون أين المتكبرون ) وتمايل رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم عن يمينه وعن شماله حتى نظرت إلى المنبر يتحرك من أسفل شيء منه حتى أقول أساقط هو برسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم

                    Yahya bin Ayub Al 'Alaaf Al Masri - Sa'eed bin Abi Maryam - Ibn Abi Hazmi - Abu Hazim - ‘Obaidillah bin Muqsim - Abdullah ibn Umar said: I saw the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him on the pulpit saying "The All Compeller will take His heavens and earth in His Hand" and the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him clasped his hand continuously clasping and unfolding it. Then he said "Then He will say: I am the Most Gracious, I am the King. Where are the ones who are arrogant and proud?". Then Allah's Messenger peace be upon him started swaying left and right until I saw the pulpit move from its bottom until I said that it is going to collapse with the Prophet peace be upon him on it.
                    This is the problem
                    If you ask them 'Do you believe Allah hears' they will say yes without hesitation, though we all know the creation hears aswell, Allah's hearing is not like ours but what is understood is still clear
                    Then if you ask them 'Do you believe Allah has a hand' and they will make a number of points before they give their answer, they themselves have decided what likening Allah to his creation is, they have no evidence, of course Allah's hand is not like ours but the meaning is understood
                    ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

                    Comment


                      Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                      Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                      حدثنا عبد الله ثنا أبي ثنا عفان ثنا حماد بن سلمة أنا إسحاق بن عبد الله يعنى بن أبي طلحة عن عبيد الله بن مقسم عن بن عمر : ان رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم قرأ هذه الآية ذات يوم على المنبر { وما قدروا الله حق قدره والأرض جميعا قبضته يوم القيامة والسموات مطويات بيمينه سبحانه وتعالى عما يشركون } ورسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم يقول هكذا بيده ويحركها يقبل بها ويدبر يمجد الرب نفسه أنا الجبار أنا المتكبر أنا الملك أنا العزيز أنا الكريم فرجف برسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم المنبر حتى قلنا ليخرن به


                      Abdullah – Abdullah’s Father – Affan – Hammad bin Salamah – Ishaaq bin Abdullah (i.e. bin Abi Talha) – ‘Obaidillah bin Muqsim – Ibn Umar: The Messenger of Allah peace be upon him recited this ayah on the pulpit one day “They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand. Glorified is He, and High is He above all that they associate as partners with Him!” (Surah 39:67) and Allah’s Messenger peace be upon him said like this with his hand moving it back and forth. The Lord glorifies Himself saying “I am the All Compeller, I am the Proud, I am the King, I am the Mighty, I am the Generous”. The Messenger of Allah peace be upon him began to shiver on the pulpit until we said it will collapse with him.

                      حدثنا يحيى بن أيوب العلاف المصري ثنا سعيد بن أبي مريم أنا ابن أبي حازم ثنا أبو حازم عن عبيد الله بن مقسم أنه سمع عبد الله بن عمر : يقول : رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم على المنبر وهو يقول : ( يأخذ الجبار سماواته وأرضه بيديه ) وقبض رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم يده وجعل يقبضها ويبسطها ثم قال : ( فيقول : أنا الرحمن أنا الملك أين الجبارون أين المتكبرون ) وتمايل رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم عن يمينه وعن شماله حتى نظرت إلى المنبر يتحرك من أسفل شيء منه حتى أقول أساقط هو برسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم

                      Yahya bin Ayub Al 'Alaaf Al Masri - Sa'eed bin Abi Maryam - Ibn Abi Hazmi - Abu Hazim - ‘Obaidillah bin Muqsim - Abdullah ibn Umar said: I saw the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him on the pulpit saying "The All Compeller will take His heavens and earth in His Hand" and the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him clasped his hand continuously clasping and unfolding it. Then he said "Then He will say: I am the Most Gracious, I am the King. Where are the ones who are arrogant and proud?". Then Allah's Messenger peace be upon him started swaying left and right until I saw the pulpit move from its bottom until I said that it is going to collapse with the Prophet peace be upon him on it.
                      Can you provide the source of these hadiths?

                      Comment


                        Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                        Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
                        Can you provide the source of these hadiths?
                        http://www.answering - islam.org/authors/rogers/allahs_hands.html
                        Last edited by budi.sudaryo; 27-11-15, 10:19 AM.
                        I'm on a strict time management regiment and have to limit my time online. Therefore I have to reply selectively. Please don't be offended if I ignore your questions. :jkk:

                        Comment


                          Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                          Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
                          This is the problem
                          If you ask them 'Do you believe Allah hears' they will say yes without hesitation, though we all know the creation hears aswell, Allah's hearing is not like ours but what is understood is still clear
                          Then if you ask them 'Do you believe Allah has a hand' and they will make a number of points before they give their answer, they themselves have decided what likening Allah to his creation is, they have no evidence, of course Allah's hand is not like ours but the meaning is understood
                          Because I don't think they are the same.

                          Hearing is something you do. A hand isn't something you do, it's an extension to your arm that you use.

                          If you are going to ask "Do you believe Allah has a hand?" ... The correct question regarding hearing is, "Do you believe Allah has ears?"
                          If you were in the clouds, Allah would raise us to you or lower you to us for battle.

                          said this to the Byzantine troops when they retreated from the battle field to the fortified town of Chalcis.

                          - Khalid ibn Walid

                          Comment


                            Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                            Originally posted by Fais View Post
                            Because I don't think they are the same.

                            Hearing is something you do. A hand isn't something you do, it's an extension to your arm that you use.

                            If you are going to ask "Do you believe Allah has a hand?" ... The correct question regarding hearing is, "Do you believe Allah has ears?"
                            No akhi what is this
                            Allah says he hears so we say he hears, Allah says he has hands so we say he has hands, we accept them both in the same way
                            Allah does not say he has ears
                            Again look, you yourself is deciding what likening Allah to his creation is
                            ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

                            Comment


                              Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                              Originally posted by Fais View Post
                              Because I don't think they are the same.

                              Hearing is something you do. A hand isn't something you do, it's an extension to your arm that you use.

                              If you are going to ask "Do you believe Allah has a hand?" ... The correct question regarding hearing is, "Do you believe Allah has ears?"
                              You are right they are not the same.

                              In regards to hand, every linguistic literal meaning of hand, the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah (Ashari, Maturidi, and Hanbalis) have rejected for Allah, whether hand means limb or part.

                              However the meaning of hearing and seeing that the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah have affirmed for Allah is perception (idrak). The proof that idrak can be attributed to Allah is the Quranic verse, "Vision perceives Him not, yet He perceives (all) vision; and He is the Subtile, the Aware." (6:103)

                              Humans hears by perceiving sounds with an ear, and sees by perceiving things with an eye, while Allah perceives sounds and things in a manner that befits His Majesty.

                              This is so different than the word "hand", no one says Allah has a limb in a manner that befits His Majesty or Allah has a part in a manner that befits His Majesty. "La Hawla Wa quwata illa billah." And these words are the most basic literal meaning of hand, which can apply to any living and non-living thing and be correct. For example, the hand of the statue means the limb of a statue, the hand of an angel means a part of the angel. These literal meanings cannot be applied to Allah, by consensus. So ask the Salafis, what literal meaning do they affirm for Allah, if not limb or part???

                              Proof that Allah is not composed of parts nor has limbs is when Allah says, "Say He Allah is One (Ahad)" (ie not composed of parts) (112:1)

                              And Allah knows best.
                              Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 27-11-15, 10:19 PM.

                              Comment


                                Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                                Originally posted by Fais View Post
                                Because I don't think they are the same.

                                Hearing is something you do. A hand isn't something you do, it's an extension to your arm that you use.

                                If you are going to ask "Do you believe Allah has a hand?" ... The correct question regarding hearing is, "Do you believe Allah has ears?"
                                No one cares, that's the problem. Allah's attributes don't change according to your human logic.

                                Allah said he hears, so he hears.
                                Allah said he has hands, so he has hands.
                                Allah didn't say he has ears, so we don't say he has ears.

                                Simple as that.
                                You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                                You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                                Comment

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