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Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

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  • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Originally posted by Abdell View Post
    I am not arguing against the aquired superiority of Arabs. The Poster is a racist because he attributed superioity to rightouness simply because he is Arab over a non-Arab Muslim.

    This is racism.

    evertything about Arab superiority is in Dunya, not ahkira. The one who thinks he is supeeior in Ahkira because he is Arab is racit.
    Yes rightousness is completely different issue, that's a incorrect understanding
    ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

    Comment


    • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

      Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
      None of those things make you superior compared to another Muslim, futile examples.
      Your not understanding, the superiority has nothing to do with Islam or taqwa
      And Zeeshan does not mean it has anything to do with taqwa either
      ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

      Comment


      • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

        Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
        Yes rightousness is completely different issue, that's a incorrect understanding
        well maybe you should tell that to the racist abu sufyan who somehow has twisted beliefs about this matter. This is the cusp of the problem in our society. Specially in the west. They tie in Arab superiority through taqwa by twisting the words and the works of our great scholars.
        Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

        If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

        Comment


        • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

          He made a mistake, rahimahullah, so what?
          The Love Allah has for Prophet Muhammad ﷺ

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acm3R7MbO_Q

          Comment


          • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

            Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
            1) Subhanallah. I swear by Allah if Islam taught what you said here, I would have left Islam a long time ago:
            On the basis of verdicts by the Imams and scholars?

            Comment


            • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

              Originally posted by Abdell View Post
              well maybe you should tell that to the racist abu sufyan who somehow has twisted beliefs about this matter. This is the cusp of the problem in our society. Specially in the west. They tie in Arab superiority through taqwa by twisting the words and the works of our great scholars.
              Abu Sufyaan doesn't believe that If an Arab and non Arab have exactly the same taqwa, then the Arab is more beloved to Allah
              What means that the Arab is just better, in the dunya, and Allah knows best why he choose them

              He also does not mean any Arab can say he is better then a non Arab, I can assure you that aswell

              What he is saying is correct, he is just saying it poorly
              ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

              Comment


              • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                Arab's aren't superior. Doesn't matter what anyone says.
                As other people have noted before, if you hold such a position you are no longer part of Ahlus Sunnah.

                The position you seem to be holding is the position of a sect called As-Suhoobiyah who are considered to be deviants by Ahlus Sunnah scholars.

                Shaikhul Islaam ibn Taymiyyah said in Iqtidaa’ As-Siraat al-Mustaqeem:
                The belief of Ahlussunnati waJamaa’ah is that the essence of Arabs is better than that of ‘Ajam, whether the ‘Ajam
                are Hebrew, Assyrians, Romans, Persians or others.
                Quraish is the best of Arabs, Bani Hashim are the best of Quaish, and Muhammad ASWS is the best of Bani Hashim.
                Therefore, Muhammad ASWS is the best of humanity, both in person and in lineage.
                The virtue of Arabs, Quraish and then Bani Hashim is not just because the Prophet ASWS was from them, even
                though this is a part of virtue. Arabs are in themselves better. This is how it is proven that the Prophet ASWS is the
                best in person and lineage. Otherwise, a revolving argument will generate.3

                Abu Muhammad Harb bin Ismail al-Kirmaani, the companion of Imam Ahmad, described his book of Sunnah by
                saying:
                "This is the belief of Imaams of knowledge, those of Athar and well known people of Sunnah, which have been taken as examples. It is the belief of scholars of Iraq, Hijaaz, Sham and others.
                Whomever goes against any of these Madhaahib, attacks them or despises those adopting them is a person of Bid’ah, he would be outside of Jamaa’ah, and inconsistent with the way of Sunnah and path of truth. It is the Madhab of Ahmad, Ishaaq bin Ibrahim bin Makhlad, Abdullah bin Az-zubair, al-Humaidee, Sa’eed bin Mansoor, and others with whom we have sat and from whom we have acquired knowledge.

                Comment


                • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                  Originally posted by TripolySunni View Post
                  Al-Albani who is also a big Salafi when commenting on this weak narration:

                  أنا عربي ، و القرآن عربي ، و لسان أهل الجنة عربي

                  [He (saw) said: I am an Arab, the Qur'an is Arabic and the tongue of the dwellers of heaven is Arabic.]

                  He says:

                  ومما يدل على بطلان نسبة هذا الحديث إليه صلى الله عليه وسلم أن فيه افتخاره صلى الله عليه وسلم بعروبته و هذا شيء غريب في الشرع الإسلامي لا يلتئم مع قوله تعالى إن أكرمكم عند الله أتقاكم و قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم لا فضل لعربي على عجمي ... إلا بالتقوى ولا مع نهيه صلى الله عليه وسلم عن الافتخار بالآباء وهو قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن الله عز وجل أذهب عنكم عبية الجاهلية و فخرها بالآباء ، الناس بنو آدم ، و آدم من تراب ، مؤمن تقي و فاجر شقي ، لينتهين أقوام يفتخرون برجال إنما هم فحم من فحم جهنم ، أو ليكونن أهون على الله من الجعلان التي تدفع النتن بأفواها

                  [What proves the corruption of this attribution to the Prophet (saw) is that it contains boasting about the lineage and that he (saw) boasts about his Arabism and this is an odd thing to do according to Islamic law.

                  It disagrees with Allah's words {Surely the noblest among you in the sight of God is the most godfearing} and with his own words (saw): "There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab except in piety

                  It also conflicts with the Prophet's (saw) instructions on the impermissibility of boasting about one's forefathers, he (saw) said: "Allah most high has removed from you the shame of ignorance and their (habit of) boasting about their fathers. The people are all Adam's (as) children and Adam (as) is from dust, (the people are) a pious believer and a wicked sinner. Those of you boasting about men who are fuel for hell-fire should desist otherwise they will certainly be more insignificant before Allah than the beetle that rolls dung with its nose."]

                  That's Albani's words and he's more Salafi than Ibn Taymiyyah who was a Hanbali.
                  Al-Albanee said in As-Silsilah Ad-Da’eefah 163:

                  “The (جنس )of Arabs is better than the (جنس ) of the rest of nations. This is what I believe, adopt as creed and consider as part of religion.
                  Even though I am Albanian, I am a Muslim, praise to Allah.
                  The virtue of the (جنس (of Arabs is the position of Ahlussunnah Wal-jamaa’ah. It is proven by many Hadeeths.”

                  Comment


                  • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                    Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
                    Abu Sufyaan doesn't believe that If an Arab and non Arab have exactly the same taqwa, then the Arab is more beloved to Allah
                    What means that the Arab is just better, in the dunya, and Allah knows best why he choose them

                    He also does not mean any Arab can say he is better then a non Arab, I can assure you that aswell

                    What he is saying is correct, he is just saying it poorly
                    did you jist ignore his post? linked quoted him.
                    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

                    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                      Originally posted by As-Suhoobiyah View Post
                      As other people have noted before, if you hold such a position you are no longer part of Ahlus Sunnah.

                      The position you seem to be holding is the position of a sect called As-Suhoobiyah who are considered to be deviants by Ahlus Sunnah scholars.

                      Shaikhul Islaam ibn Taymiyyah said in Iqtidaa’ As-Siraat al-Mustaqeem:
                      The belief of Ahlussunnati waJamaa’ah is that the essence of Arabs is better than that of ‘Ajam, whether the ‘Ajam
                      are Hebrew, Assyrians, Romans, Persians or others.
                      Quraish is the best of Arabs, Bani Hashim are the best of Quaish, and Muhammad ASWS is the best of Bani Hashim.
                      Therefore, Muhammad ASWS is the best of humanity, both in person and in lineage.
                      The virtue of Arabs, Quraish and then Bani Hashim is not just because the Prophet ASWS was from them, even
                      though this is a part of virtue. Arabs are in themselves better. This is how it is proven that the Prophet ASWS is the
                      best in person and lineage. Otherwise, a revolving argument will generate.3

                      Abu Muhammad Harb bin Ismail al-Kirmaani, the companion of Imam Ahmad, described his book of Sunnah by
                      saying:
                      "This is the belief of Imaams of knowledge, those of Athar and well known people of Sunnah, which have been taken as examples. It is the belief of scholars of Iraq, Hijaaz, Sham and others.
                      Whomever goes against any of these Madhaahib, attacks them or despises those adopting them is a person of Bid’ah, he would be outside of Jamaa’ah, and inconsistent with the way of Sunnah and path of truth. It is the Madhab of Ahmad, Ishaaq bin Ibrahim bin Makhlad, Abdullah bin Az-zubair, al-Humaidee, Sa’eed bin Mansoor, and others with whom we have sat and from whom we have acquired knowledge.
                      the brtother desnt believe that.

                      EDIT: auto sign out is terrible. I had a really long reply
                      Last edited by Abdell; 23-09-17, 04:34 PM.
                      Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

                      If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                        Originally posted by TripolySunni View Post

                        Al-Albani who is also a big Salafi when commenting on this weak narration:

                        أنا عربي ، و القرآن عربي ، و لسان أهل الجنة عربي

                        [He (saw) said: I am an Arab, the Qur'an is Arabic and the tongue of the dwellers of heaven is Arabic.]

                        He says:

                        ومما يدل على بطلان نسبة هذا الحديث إليه صلى الله عليه وسلم أن فيه افتخاره صلى الله عليه وسلم بعروبته و هذا شيء غريب في الشرع الإسلامي لا يلتئم مع قوله تعالى إن أكرمكم عند الله أتقاكم و قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم لا فضل لعربي على عجمي ... إلا بالتقوى ولا مع نهيه صلى الله عليه وسلم عن الافتخار بالآباء وهو قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن الله عز وجل أذهب عنكم عبية الجاهلية و فخرها بالآباء ، الناس بنو آدم ، و آدم من تراب ، مؤمن تقي و فاجر شقي ، لينتهين أقوام يفتخرون برجال إنما هم فحم من فحم جهنم ، أو ليكونن أهون على الله من الجعلان التي تدفع النتن بأفواها

                        [What proves the corruption of this attribution to the Prophet (saw) is that it contains boasting about the lineage and that he (saw) boasts about his Arabism and this is an odd thing to do according to Islamic law.

                        It disagrees with Allah's words {Surely the noblest among you in the sight of God is the most godfearing} and with his own words (saw): "There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab except in piety

                        It also conflicts with the Prophet's (saw) instructions on the impermissibility of boasting about one's forefathers, he (saw) said: "Allah most high has removed from you the shame of ignorance and their (habit of) boasting about their fathers. The people are all Adam's (as) children and Adam (as) is from dust, (the people are) a pious believer and a wicked sinner. Those of you boasting about men who are fuel for hell-fire should desist otherwise they will certainly be more insignificant before Allah than the beetle that rolls dung with its nose."]

                        That's Albani's words and he's more Salafi than Ibn Taymiyyah who was a Hanbali.
                        It is true it is not a salafi thing, for large periods of history this was the beliefs and understanding of the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah.

                        However, wrong information was given about Al-Albani.

                        Al-Albanee said in As-Silsilah Ad-Da’eefah 163:
                        “The (جنس (of Arabs is better than the (جنس (of the rest of nations. This is what I believe, adopt as creed and
                        consider as part of religion.
                        Even though I am Albanian, I am a Muslim, praise to Allah.
                        The virtue of the (جنس (of Arabs is the position of Ahlussunnah Wal-jamaa’ah. It is proven by many Hadeeths.”

                        Comment


                        • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                          Originally posted by TripolySunni View Post

                          He says:

                          وما ذكرنا من حكم اللسان العربي وأخلاق العرب، يثبت لمن كان كذلك وإن كان أصله فارسياً، وينتفي عمن لم يكن كذلك وإن كان أصله هاشمياً

                          [What we mentioned about the rulings pertaining to the Arabic tongue and Arab morals is established/applied to anyone who has them even if he's of Persian origins and it doesn't establish/apply to the one who does not possess them (Arabic tongue and morals) even if he's originally a Hashemite.]

                          Then he quotes this narration:

                          إنَّ الرب واحد، والأبُ واحد، والدَين واحد، وإنَّ العربيةَ ليست لأحدكم بأبٍ ولا أمّ، إنما هي لسانَّ، فمنْ تكلَّمَ بالعربيةِ فهو عربي

                          [The Lord is one, the father is one and the religion is one; Arabic is not a father or mother to any of you, it is only a tongue, so whoever speaks it then he is Arab.]

                          He says "The meaning of this report is correct."


                          Originally posted by Abdell View Post

                          Again the prpblem here is the typical non-Arab probably has no idea that he would be considered Arab by classical scholars if he was fluent and followed Arab tradition.

                          .
                          Originally posted by Foodadad View Post
                          There is one quoted. Your question is already answered.

                          Ok your taking ibn taymeya's saying out of its contexts


                          1/ you said:

                          وما ذكرنا من حكم اللسان العربي وأخلاق العرب، يثبت لمن كان كذلك وإن كان أصله فارسياً، وينتفي عمن لم يكن كذلك وإن كان أصله هاشمياً

                          [What we mentioned about the rulings pertaining to the Arabic tongue and Arab morals is established/applied to anyone who has them even if he's of Persian origins and it doesn't establish/apply to the one who does not possess them (Arabic tongue and morals) even if he's originally a Hashemite.]

                          ** He mentioned this in his book اقتضاء الصراط and he was talking about the theme of imitating the kuffar, so he meant if you speak arabic and neglect the kuffar culture even if you are not arab you are not sinning.

                          That's why he said just after what you quoted " والمقصود هنا أن ما ذكرته من النهي عن التشبه بالأعاجم إنما العبرة فيه بما كان عليه صدر الإسلام"

                          What is meant here is what is mentioned in the prohibition on imitating the non-arabs....

                          and what he said is clear if someone from qurash or from the prophet's lineage and he is Imitating the kufar in its language or culture he is sinning and if someone who is non-arab is not doing that is not sinning.

                          So he was talking about something else and didn't mention that if you speak arabic you are an arab, Arab is the sense that you become of arab race.

                          My question is that If i speak urdu I'm supposed to be an indian?

                          2/again you didn't quote the full text :

                          عن مالك بن أنس، عن الزهري، عن أبي سلمة بن عبد الرحمن قال: «جاء قيس بن حطاطة (2) إلى حلقة فيها صهيب الرومي (3) وسلمان الفارسي، وبلال الحبشي، فقال: هذا الأوس والخزرج قد قاموا بنصرة هذا الرجل فما بال هؤلاء؟ فقام معاذ بن جبل فأخذ بتلابيبه، ثم أتى به النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فأخبره بمقالته، فقام النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم مغضبا يجر رداءه حتى دخل المسجد، ثم نودي: أن (4) الصلاة جامعة، فصعد المنبر، فحمد الله وأثنى عليه ثم قال: " أما بعد: أيها الناس، فإن الرب رب واحد، والأب أب واحد، والدين دين واحد، وإن العربية ليست لأحدكم بأب ولا أم، إنما هي لسان، فمن تكلم بالعربية فهو عربي "، فقام معاذ بن جبل فقال: بم تأمرنا في هذا المنافق؟ فقال: " دعه إلى النار» . فكان قيس ممن ارتد فقتل في الردة

                          I won't translate the whole story

                          but it's a very weak story about someone who had jaheleya beliefs-taking a pride in his lineage and of course it's haram- so the prophet punished him then he said "The Lord is one, the father is one and the religion is one; Arabic is not a father or mother to any of you, it is only a tongue, so whoever speaks it then he is Arab."

                          but ibn taymeya said after it

                          "this story is weak but it is correctly in some ways"

                          he did'nt said ""The meaning of this report is correct."" LIKE YOU SAID!!

                          he meant that arab and non-arab can't have any jahelya beliefs that's a part of the story.

                          that's why he said just before this hadith about another weak one "من تكلم بالعربية فهو عربي" "whoever speaks Arabic he is an arab"

                          then ibn taymemay said after it :

                          "if this hadith is sahih it would be an evidence that whoever speak Arabic he is an arab"

                          so ibn tyamemya didn't say if someone speaks arabic he is an arab but he said IF the hadith is sahih- and of course this hadith is very very weak- that would be an evidence!!
                          (But even then would it mean complete arab)????

                          So where did ibn taymeya said clearly that whoever speak arabic is an arab??

                          Please stop taking ibn taymeyah's saying out if its context and bring his full kalaam!!!

                          and how could he said that and the main hadith that he took as evidence was ("Indeed Allah has chosen Isma'il from the children of Ibrahim, and He chose Banu Kinanah from the children of Isma'il, and He chose the Quraish from Banu Kinanah, and He chose Banu Hashim from Quraish, and He chose me from Banu Hashim.")
                          as you see the hadith is very clear about the offspring.
                          إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

                          Comment


                          • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                            Originally posted by Abdell View Post
                            did you jist ignore his post? linked quoted him.

                            What [MENTION=118642]abufulaans[/MENTION] said what I meant

                            You are the one who ignoring my posts
                            إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

                            Comment


                            • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                              So what if they are (or aren't)? It's not a big deal. Allah may favour any race or person as Allah wills.

                              A Muslim is better than a non-Muslim and there are many Arab non-Muslims, so what does that tell you? It's not as simple as Arabs are better without exception. There is truth to the statement that Arabs are "superior", but not in the way think in that it's not as simple as that.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                                Originally posted by Morose View Post
                                A Muslim is better than a non-Muslim and there are many Arab non-Muslims, so what does that tell you? I.
                                That if they became Muslims they would have a natural superiority over other non Arab Muslims.
                                You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                                You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                                Comment

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