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Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

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    #76
    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    What is there to explain? It doesn't prove anything with regards to Arabs being better than non Arabs.
    doesn't this hadith prove that Allah has chose Ismael and his offspring ?

    doesn't that mean they are better than others ?
    إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

    Comment


      #77
      Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

      Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
      The Istifaa' of Allah conveys "preference", "superiority" and "priority". So when the Prophet SAWS said that Allah "chose" the Arabs, and then the Quraysh, this is understood by all Islamic scholarship to mean that they have "superiority".

      Allah chose Muhammad SAWS and this is why we call him SAWS "al-Mustafaa". This "choosing" made him SAWS superior to all other Prophets.

      Allah chose "Islam": {...and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.}[5:3] That is why Islam is superior to all other religions.

      Denying the "preference" Allah has placed in something is to deny the "superiority" that Allah gave to it and this is to deny Allah.

      The Hadith of Allah's 'choosing' the Arabs is precisely the proof that every scholar uses to prove the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs. Stating that it is not proof or that its correct explanation opposes this or that Ayah or Hadith is childish.

      Exactly!

      and about evidences that show there's no preference but only in taqwaa..

      we say there's no conflict between them

      because preference of arabs comes when they are equal in taqwa and deen.
      Last edited by Abu-Sufyaan; 22-09-17, 07:24 PM.
      إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

      Comment


        #78
        Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

        Originally posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
        doesn't this hadith prove that Allah has chose Ismael and his offspring ?

        doesn't that mean they are better than others ?
        Remember the du'a Ibrahim :as: made? The response was that the du'a is accepted, but only for the righteous among them.

        Comment


          #79
          Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

          Originally posted by Foodadad View Post
          Remember the du'a Ibrahim :as: made? The response was that the du'a is accepted, but only for the righteous among them.

          yes that's why If there's a scholar from non arab and a normal muslim from arab

          the scholar is better than that normal muslim..

          but what if they are equal in taqwaa and deen and knowledge?
          إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

          Comment


            #80
            Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

            Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
            What is there to explain? It doesn't prove anything with regards to Arabs being better than non Arabs.

            Btw Link...
            Do you also disagree with the ijmaa that the khalifa should be from quraysh?

            I see this issue is also similar to our topic here.

            Same question for brother [MENTION=57142]Muwahid_[/MENTION]
            Last edited by Abu-Sufyaan; 22-09-17, 07:58 PM.
            إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

            Comment


              #81
              Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

              Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
              The Istifaa' of Allah conveys "preference", "superiority" and "priority". So when the Prophet SAWS said that Allah "chose" the Arabs, and then the Quraysh, this is understood by all Islamic scholarship to mean that they have "superiority".

              Allah chose Muhammad SAWS and this is why we call him SAWS "al-Mustafaa". This "choosing" made him SAWS superior to all other Prophets.

              Allah chose "Islam": {...and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.}[5:3] That is why Islam is superior to all other religions.

              Denying the "preference" Allah has placed in something is to deny the "superiority" that Allah gave to it and this is to deny Allah.

              The Hadith of Allah's 'choosing' the Arabs is precisely the proof that every scholar uses to prove the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs. Stating that it is not proof or that its correct explanation opposes this or that Ayah or Hadith is childish.

              Allah choose the Israelites too as mentioned in the Quran, using the same context of your arguments, we would have to say that they are also superior, yet we know most of them choose not to follow the Prophet, but what about those that did who as a result didn't incur Allah's wrath for their disbelief?

              We can argue that they are far superior then the Arabs since the Israelite's had a long line of Prophets from their lineage as opposed to the Ismealites, referring to those Rabbi's in Medina that became Muslim, how do you reconcile this with the above?

              Can you elaborate why the scholars belief that Allah choosing implies superiority? and also what kind of superiority are we talking about ? is this racial? cultural? heritage? linguistically? Spiritually ? Taqwa ? intelligence ? civilisation ? etc. what type of superiority are we talking about here? because superiority comes in many forms.

              Comment


                #82
                Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                Originally posted by Dawud21 View Post
                Allah choose the Israelites too as mentioned in the Quran, using the same context of your arguments, we would have to say that they are also superior, yet we know most of them choose not to follow the Prophet, but what about those that did who as a result didn't incur Allah's wrath for their disbelief?

                We can argue that they are far superior then the Arabs since the Israelite's had a long line of Prophets from their lineage as opposed to the Ismealites, referring to those Rabbi's in Medina that became Muslim, how do you reconcile this with the above?

                Can you elaborate why the scholars belief that Allah choosing implies superiority? and also what kind of superiority are we talking about ? is this racial? cultural? heritage? linguistically? Spiritually ? Taqwa ? intelligence ? civilisation ? etc. what type of superiority are we talking about here? because superiority comes in many forms.
                The scholars do not believe that since it clearly contradicts the Quran. This is the view of Ibn Taymiyyah only. This is one of the reasons why I avoid his teachings, he claims "ijma" and "ahlu sunnah" for his views.
                Last edited by Calender121438; 22-09-17, 09:15 PM.

                Comment


                  #83
                  Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                  Originally posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
                  Exactly!

                  and about evidences that show there's no preference but only in taqwaa..

                  we say there's no conflict between them

                  because preference of arabs comes when they are equal in taqwa and deen.
                  No one is ever equal in taqwa. Also negged for being a racist prick. Get your stuff out here
                  Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

                  If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                    Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
                    The Istifaa' of Allah conveys "preference", "superiority" and "priority". So when the Prophet SAWS said that Allah "chose" the Arabs, and then the Quraysh, this is understood by all Islamic scholarship to mean that they have "superiority".

                    Allah chose Muhammad SAWS and this is why we call him SAWS "al-Mustafaa". This "choosing" made him SAWS superior to all other Prophets.

                    Allah chose "Islam": {...and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.}[5:3] That is why Islam is superior to all other religions.

                    Denying the "preference" Allah has placed in something is to deny the "superiority" that Allah gave to it and this is to deny Allah.

                    The Hadith of Allah's 'choosing' the Arabs is precisely the proof that every scholar uses to prove the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs. Stating that it is not proof or that its correct explanation opposes this or that Ayah or Hadith is childish.
                    Describe "Priority"?

                    None of what you say is incorrect. The problem is that you are missing the base of the problem.

                    You obviously have good grasp of ibn taymiyah work, these racial issues have arised because these supposed "Arabs" have a twisted idea of ibn taymiyah work.

                    The real problem people think "Arab" is an inherent superiority.

                    Realistically by definition many fluent Arabic speaking muslim today who follow the sunnah, has an extremely fluent grasp of the Arabic language would be considered "arab" by ibn taymiyah.

                    If the Racist Arabs today and the whinning non-arabs today actually had a proper understanding of ibn taymiyah work they would come a conclusion that he was acutally the lease racist of individuals. That his work about Arab superiority and what an Arab is actually NOT racist.
                    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

                    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                      Here's why its a problem today.

                      Arab: I am superior, I am an Arab he's Latino

                      Meanwhile.

                      Latino: Has a better grasp of Arabic, follow Islamic/Arabic tradition etc.

                      That has always been the problem. People have never argued against the superiority of Arab language and its culture since it is pretty much tied to Islam.

                      Arab: I am better anyway,,I was born Arab.

                      Racism in Islamic communities is so Subtle and disturbing tbh.
                      Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

                      If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                        Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
                        The scholars do not believe that since it clearly contradicts the Quran. This is the view of Ibn Taymiyyah only. This is one of the reasons why I avoid his teachings, he claims "ijma" and "ahlu sunnah" for his views.
                        I think you should also avoid the books of Ibn Hajar al-Haythami. He wrote a whole book called فضل العرب والنهي عن بغضهم in which he collected hadiith related to the superiority of the Arabs.

                        You should also avoid reading books by Ibn Qutaybah [that is if you ever get to know who he is] as he wrote a book called فضل العرب والتنبيه على علومها

                        You should avoid reading the books by Imaam al-'IraaQi as he wrote a book called محجة القرب في فضل العرب

                        That is a list of a few scholars you should avoid. I will update the list with more classical scholars and contemperary ones who were not Salafi yet said the Arabs were superiror so you can avoid them.

                        Finally, you should also avoid reading Imaam al-Nawawi as Ibn Hajar al-asqalaani and al-Shawkaani have shown that he has claimed Ijmaa on an issue when there was none.
                        Watch those eyes

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                          Originally posted by Dawud21 View Post
                          Allah choose the Israelites too as mentioned in the Quran, using the same context of your arguments, we would have to say that they are also superior, yet we know most of them choose not to follow the Prophet, but what about those that did who as a result didn't incur Allah's wrath for their disbelief?
                          Allah also "unchose" Bani Isra'eel. However, Bani Isra'eel has a historic "superiority" since no other lineage had as many Prophets remembered until now.

                          What people ignore is the downside to being "chosen" by Allah. The Arabs who did not become Muslim are lower than the Christians and Jews in some ways. One of which is that Jizyah is not accepted from the Arab non-Muslim, rather the only options available to them are to fight or convert to Islam.

                          Allah also referred to Mushrik Arabs as the "worst in Disbelief and Hypocrisy". So with the "superiority" comes the worst type of condemnation for failure.

                          Originally posted by Dawud21 View Post
                          We can argue that they are far superior then the Arabs since the Israelite's had a long line of Prophets from their lineage as opposed to the Ismealites, referring to those Rabbi's in Medina that became Muslim, how do you reconcile this with the above?
                          No, "we" can't argue something just because the untrained, unqualified and undisciplined mind of an individual attempts to employ logic to something Tawqeefi.

                          In other words, the principle of the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs is not based on logic, intellect or reason. Rather the principle is based on something revealed and divinely-inspired.

                          So there's no point in attempting to confine the discussion to "logical" proofs, even poorly developed proofs, and argue against the principle.

                          Originally posted by Dawud21 View Post
                          Can you elaborate why the scholars belief that Allah choosing implies superiority?
                          Again, this issue is Tawqeefi, not Ijtihadi. In other words, there is no "reason" or intellectual proof at the basis of this Belief. Some scholars have surmised possible 'Ilal or "reasons" for the Belief, but those are Ijtihadi and subject to debate and discusssion.

                          Originally posted by Dawud21 View Post
                          and also what kind of superiority are we talking about ? is this racial? cultural? heritage? linguistically? Spiritually ? Taqwa ? intelligence ? civilisation ? etc. what type of superiority are we talking about here? because superiority comes in many forms.
                          Sorry but some of these questions are irrelevant. No one said that Arab "Taqwa" is superior to non-Arab "Taqwa".

                          The "kind of superiority" has already been mentioned. There's no reason to extend the parameters of the "superiority" beyond what the scholars mentioned.

                          Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
                          The scholars do not believe that since it clearly contradicts the Quran. This is the view of Ibn Taymiyyah only. This is one of the reasons why I avoid his teachings, he claims "ijma" and "ahlu sunnah" for his views.
                          Wrong. Every scholar of Ahl as-Sunnah believes in the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs. All of them were/are experts in Tafsir of the Quran.

                          You would have to avoid all the works of Ahl as-Sunnah in order to run away from this Belief.

                          Originally posted by Abdell View Post
                          Describe "Priority"?
                          It is simply a synonym for "preference" or "choice".

                          Originally posted by Abdell View Post
                          None of what you say is incorrect. The problem is that you are missing the base of the problem.
                          What is the "base of the problem"?

                          Originally posted by Abdell View Post
                          You obviously have good grasp of ibn taymiyah work, these racial issues have arised because these supposed "Arabs" have a twisted idea of ibn taymiyah work.

                          The real problem people think "Arab" is an inherent superiority.

                          Realistically by definition many fluent Arabic speaking muslim today who follow the sunnah, has an extremely fluent grasp of the Arabic language would be considered "arab" by ibn taymiyah.

                          If the Racist Arabs today and the whinning non-arabs today actually had a proper understanding of ibn taymiyah work they would come a conclusion that he was acutally the lease racist of individuals. That his work about Arab superiority and what an Arab is actually NOT racist.
                          There is a logical fallacy in the assumptions you make while trying to understand this principle.

                          No one said that Arabs have "inherent superiority". Rather the superiority that Arabs have is an "acquired" superiority. In other words, any individual, from any race, can acquire the same superiority that Arabs as a group have, except for the priority given to Quraysh for Khilaafah.

                          Likewise, any individual Arab who is deficient in the specific attributes which make Arabs superior to non-Arabs, for example, his or her imitation of the non-Arabs, makes them inferior and even worse than a non-Arab who imitates the Arabs, i.e. utilizes the Arabic language, imitates the Prophet SAWS and Salaf, and adheres to the norms of Maru'ah and Islamic Adab.

                          Originally posted by Abdell View Post
                          Here's why its a problem today.

                          Arab: I am superior, I am an Arab he's Latino

                          Meanwhile.

                          Latino: Has a better grasp of Arabic, follow Islamic/Arabic tradition etc.

                          That has always been the problem. People have never argued against the superiority of Arab language and its culture since it is pretty much tied to Islam.

                          Arab: I am better anyway,,I was born Arab.

                          Racism in Islamic communities is so Subtle and disturbing tbh.
                          There is racism in every community, Muslim and non-Muslim.

                          The difference between Muslim and non-Muslim communities is that Islam provides the solution to racism without claiming that all races/tribes/cultures/nations are equal.

                          As Muslims, we all agree that the best among us are the most knowledgeable of Allah's Speech, His Laws, and the Sunnah of His Messenger SAWS.

                          All Muslims agree that in order to study Allah's Quran, Laws, and His Messenger's Sunnah, one must know the Arabic language.

                          All Muslims agree that the best Muslim is the one that imitates the Prophet SAWS the closest, and this leads to a person adopting all the characteristics, preferences and behavior of the Prophet SAWS, from how he SAWS looked to how he SAWS walked, talked, prayed, slept, ate, interacted, etc.

                          Any objective observer of such a person would necessarily arrive at the conclusion that this person is "Arabized" and not belonging to any other race, culture, nation, etc. Even if they were from India, Australia, the USA, UK, Somalia, China, etc.

                          Muslims are only experiencing racism amongst ourselves due to abandoning efforts to imitate the Prophet SAWS and abandonment of the Arabic language as our primary language.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                            Originally posted by Abdell View Post
                            No one is ever equal in taqwa. Also negged for being a racist prick. Get your stuff out here
                            Ok master "un racist"

                            Can you give me a name of a only ONE classical scholar who you follow in this issue ?
                            Last edited by Abu-Sufyaan; 23-09-17, 02:29 AM.
                            إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                              Originally posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
                              Ok master "un racist"

                              Can you give me a name of a only ONE classical scholar who you follow in this issue ?
                              ibn Taymiyah.

                              Was gonna neg you again, but no more negs left. smdh.
                              Last edited by Abdell; 23-09-17, 02:54 AM.
                              Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

                              If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                                Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
                                I think you should also avoid the books of Ibn Hajar al-Haythami. He wrote a whole book called فضل العرب والنهي عن بغضهم in which he collected hadiith related to the superiority of the Arabs.

                                You should also avoid reading books by Ibn Qutaybah [that is if you ever get to know who he is] as he wrote a book called فضل العرب والتنبيه على علومها

                                You should avoid reading the books by Imaam al-'IraaQi as he wrote a book called محجة القرب في فضل العرب

                                That is a list of a few scholars you should avoid. I will update the list with more classical scholars and contemperary ones who were not Salafi yet said the Arabs were superiror so you can avoid them.

                                Finally, you should also avoid reading Imaam al-Nawawi as Ibn Hajar al-asqalaani and al-Shawkaani have shown that he has claimed Ijmaa on an issue when there was none.
                                Which issue are we talking about with regards to Imam Nawawi. I remember reading his explanation about 40 hadiths and loved it.

                                Comment

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