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Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

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    #61
    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Originally posted by ForeverMonotheist1 View Post
    Arent these Hadiths in great conflict with Quran and other hadith( arab is not better than non-arab vice versa, black is not better than white vice versa)?


    Surely Logic says we must accept Quran and hadith of "arab is not better than nonarab vice versa......" and throw away whatever contradicts Quran and that Hadith.
    None of those narrations are actually saying Arabs are better than non-Arabs, read them again.

    First one describes from what lineage is our Prophet (saw), doesn't say more than that, Allah chose to favor Quraysh by picking the Prophet (saw) from among them but that doesn't mean they're better, it means he happened to be from them. Allah also chose abu jahl to be from Quraysh and abu lahab from banu Hashim.

    Second one is against racism, it says hating the Arabs is a sign of hypocrisy, as if the Messenger (saw) knew many non-Arabs would embrace Islam and act with racism and hatred or jealousy towards them. (Which did happen, check Iran and Turkey) There's also narrations that are anti-racism in general, so the ruling is general.

    Third one says his generation was the best generation, nothing to do with Arab superiority.

    CORRECTION, second narration says "Hating the Arabs is a sign of Hypocrisy" Not "Disbelief".
    Last edited by TripolySunni; 03-03-16, 06:44 PM.

    Comment


      #62
      Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

      Originally posted by TripolySunni View Post
      None of those narrations are actually saying Arabs are better than non-Arabs, read them again.

      First one describes from what lineage is our Prophet (saw), doesn't say more than that, Allah chose to favor Quraysh by picking the Prophet (saw) from among them but that doesn't mean they're better, it means he happened to be from them. Allah also chose abu jahl to be from Quraysh and abu lahab from banu Hashim.

      Second one is against racism, it says hating the Arabs is a sign of hypocrisy, as if the Messenger (saw) knew many non-Arabs would embrace Islam and act with racism and hatred or jealousy towards them. (Which did happen, check Iran and Turkey) There's also narrations that are anti-racism in general, so the ruling is general.

      Third one says his generation was the best generation, nothing to do with Arab superiority.

      CORRECTION, second narration says "Hating the Arabs is a sign of Hypocrisy" Not "Disbelief".


      Quoting:
      >>>>>>What Ahlul-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah are upon is that Arab-kind is better than non-Arab-kind: Assyrians, Hebrews, Romans, Persians and the rest<<<<<<<


      ^^^Thats clearcut Arab Supremacy in the name of Religion.

      It goes against Quran and Hadiths.

      In truth if prophethood is sign of supremacy then we can say Hebrews are better than Arabs because Hebrews had many other major prophets, Arabs only had two or four prophets and one messenger pbuh.


      Anyways i stick with Allah's Words that humans excell other humans through Taqwa(not lineage or being arab, hebrew , japanese, western, nigerian).
      Last edited by ForeverMonotheist1; 03-03-16, 06:52 PM.

      Comment


        #63
        Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

        Ibn Taymiyyah actually elaborates on why he thinks Arabs are better in that same book, he says because their tongue is the most eloquent and greatest, it contains many meanings with the least amount of words, they are more generous and have strong logic, they have higher morals etc... He lists a bunch of things if anyone is interested they can go to that same book of his or read here:

        وسبب هذا الفضل - والله أعلم - ما اختصوا به في عقولهم وألسنتهم وأخلاقهم وأعمالهم ، وذلك أن الفضل إما بالعلم النافع ، وإما بالعمل الصالح ، والعلم له مبدأ ، وهو قوة العقل الذي هو الحفظ والفهم ، وتمام وهو قوة المنطق الذي هو البيان والعبارة ، والعرب هم أفهم من غيرهم ، وأحفظ وأقدر على البيان والعبارة ، ولسانهم أتم الألسنة بيانا ، وتمييزا للمعاني جمعا وفرقا ، يجمع المعاني الكثيرة في اللفظ القليل . وأما العمل فإن مبناه على الأخلاق ، وهي الغرائز المخلوقة في النفس ، وغرائزهم أطوع للخير من غيرهم ، فهم أقرب للسخاء والحلم والشجاعة والوفاء وغير ذلك من الأخلاق المحمودة


        Now what should be clarified is that this isn't a "Salafi" thing, some of you said "Ibn Taymiyyah said so and so, how will the Salafis respond!?" As if everything the man says is the established position.

        Al-Albani who is also a big Salafi when commenting on this weak narration:

        أنا عربي ، و القرآن عربي ، و لسان أهل الجنة عربي

        [He (saw) said: I am an Arab, the Qur'an is Arabic and the tongue of the dwellers of heaven is Arabic.]

        He says:

        ومما يدل على بطلان نسبة هذا الحديث إليه صلى الله عليه وسلم أن فيه افتخاره صلى الله عليه وسلم بعروبته و هذا شيء غريب في الشرع الإسلامي لا يلتئم مع قوله تعالى إن أكرمكم عند الله أتقاكم و قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم لا فضل لعربي على عجمي ... إلا بالتقوى ولا مع نهيه صلى الله عليه وسلم عن الافتخار بالآباء وهو قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن الله عز وجل أذهب عنكم عبية الجاهلية و فخرها بالآباء ، الناس بنو آدم ، و آدم من تراب ، مؤمن تقي و فاجر شقي ، لينتهين أقوام يفتخرون برجال إنما هم فحم من فحم جهنم ، أو ليكونن أهون على الله من الجعلان التي تدفع النتن بأفواها

        [What proves the corruption of this attribution to the Prophet (saw) is that it contains boasting about the lineage and that he (saw) boasts about his Arabism and this is an odd thing to do according to Islamic law.

        It disagrees with Allah's words {Surely the noblest among you in the sight of God is the most godfearing} and with his own words (saw): "There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab except in piety

        It also conflicts with the Prophet's (saw) instructions on the impermissibility of boasting about one's forefathers, he (saw) said: "Allah most high has removed from you the shame of ignorance and their (habit of) boasting about their fathers. The people are all Adam's (as) children and Adam (as) is from dust, (the people are) a pious believer and a wicked sinner. Those of you boasting about men who are fuel for hell-fire should desist otherwise they will certainly be more insignificant before Allah than the beetle that rolls dung with its nose."]

        That's Albani's words and he's more Salafi than Ibn Taymiyyah who was a Hanbali.

        Comment


          #64
          Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

          Originally posted by TripolySunni View Post
          Ibn Taymiyyah actually elaborates on why he thinks Arabs are better in that same book, he says because their tongue is the most eloquent and greatest, it contains many meanings with the least amount of words, they are more generous and have strong logic, they have higher morals etc... He lists a bunch of things if anyone is interested they can go to that same book of his or read here:

          وسبب هذا الفضل - والله أعلم - ما اختصوا به في عقولهم وألسنتهم وأخلاقهم وأعمالهم ، وذلك أن الفضل إما بالعلم النافع ، وإما بالعمل الصالح ، والعلم له مبدأ ، وهو قوة العقل الذي هو الحفظ والفهم ، وتمام وهو قوة المنطق الذي هو البيان والعبارة ، والعرب هم أفهم من غيرهم ، وأحفظ وأقدر على البيان والعبارة ، ولسانهم أتم الألسنة بيانا ، وتمييزا للمعاني جمعا وفرقا ، يجمع المعاني الكثيرة في اللفظ القليل . وأما العمل فإن مبناه على الأخلاق ، وهي الغرائز المخلوقة في النفس ، وغرائزهم أطوع للخير من غيرهم ، فهم أقرب للسخاء والحلم والشجاعة والوفاء وغير ذلك من الأخلاق المحمودة


          Now what should be clarified is that this isn't a "Salafi" thing, some of you said "Ibn Taymiyyah said so and so, how will the Salafis respond!?" As if everything the man says is the established position.

          Al-Albani who is also a big Salafi when commenting on this weak narration:

          أنا عربي ، و القرآن عربي ، و لسان أهل الجنة عربي

          [He (saw) said: I am an Arab, the Qur'an is Arabic and the tongue of the dwellers of heaven is Arabic.]

          He says:

          ومما يدل على بطلان نسبة هذا الحديث إليه صلى الله عليه وسلم أن فيه افتخاره صلى الله عليه وسلم بعروبته و هذا شيء غريب في الشرع الإسلامي لا يلتئم مع قوله تعالى إن أكرمكم عند الله أتقاكم و قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم لا فضل لعربي على عجمي ... إلا بالتقوى ولا مع نهيه صلى الله عليه وسلم عن الافتخار بالآباء وهو قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن الله عز وجل أذهب عنكم عبية الجاهلية و فخرها بالآباء ، الناس بنو آدم ، و آدم من تراب ، مؤمن تقي و فاجر شقي ، لينتهين أقوام يفتخرون برجال إنما هم فحم من فحم جهنم ، أو ليكونن أهون على الله من الجعلان التي تدفع النتن بأفواها

          [What proves the corruption of this attribution to the Prophet (saw) is that it contains boasting about the lineage and that he (saw) boasts about his Arabism and this is an odd thing to do according to Islamic law.

          It disagrees with Allah's words {Surely the noblest among you in the sight of God is the most godfearing} and with his own words (saw): "There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab except in piety

          It also conflicts with the Prophet's (saw) instructions on the impermissibility of boasting about one's forefathers, he (saw) said: "Allah most high has removed from you the shame of ignorance and their (habit of) boasting about their fathers. The people are all Adam's (as) children and Adam (as) is from dust, (the people are) a pious believer and a wicked sinner. Those of you boasting about men who are fuel for hell-fire should desist otherwise they will certainly be more insignificant before Allah than the beetle that rolls dung with its nose."]

          That's Albani's words and he's more Salafi than Ibn Taymiyyah who was a Hanbali.
          I don't know about the bolded bit. In pre-Islamic times some behaviors of Arabian people was really bad, like idol worship, oppressing the poor, tribalism, zina. read about it in the sealed nectar. Isn't it Islam that gave them higher morals? Wouldn't you find great cultures and history in most Muslim nations, and hospitality, respect and high manners too?
          وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

          And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


          أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

          Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


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          Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

          Comment


            #65
            Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

            Originally posted by Muwahid_ View Post
            That looks like something directly out of mein-kampf.

            And if it is obligatory to accept the superiority of the Arab race, why hasn't the prophet (SAW) said anything on the matter? Is this not an act of taking scholars as your lords, when Allah (SWT) and his messenger (SAW) have already ruled on this and that there is no superiority?
            ‘…Indeed Allaah chose Bani Kinaanah from the offspring of Ismaa’eel, and chose Quraysh from Bani Kinaanah, and chose Bani Haashim from Quraysh, and chose me from Bani Haashim.’ [Saheeh at-Tirmithee #3606]


            /thread
            Before you ask a question: https://islamqa.info/en

            Comment


              #66
              Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

              bump. In connection to Najdi thread going on.

              Comment


                #67
                Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                Arab's aren't superior. Doesn't matter what anyone says.
                You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                  Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                  Arab's aren't superior. Doesn't matter what anyone says.
                  They are superior. Not in the sense everyone assumes, but they're clearly far more superior than any ethnicity in spreading the deen.

                  Now ofcourse, any Arabic speaking non-Arab can be vastly superior than any Arab for that matter.

                  of course, this logic seems to be losing its meaning though..Gotta admit.

                  Specially since the last "openings" were done by non-arabs.
                  Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

                  If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                    Would like to hear what Spicen and Bidrohi would say about this
                    If following Aḥmad makes me a 'Wahhābī', then I declare that I am one.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                      Originally posted by Muwahid_ View Post
                      When the prophet (SAW) said: there is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab?

                      Why you believe that everyone who doesn't accept the tafdhil (superiority) of the Arab race, is a deviant and innovator, when you are giving precedence to Salafis scholars' rulings over the rulings of the prophet (SAW)? Why hasn't the superiority of the Arab race ever mentioned in the Quran or authentic hadiths?

                      Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) was of the opinion that Arabs ARE SUPERIOR (Afdal) than Non-Arabs and he claimed that this was the view that was held by the MAJORITY of the scholars – ‘Al-Jamhoor’- .

                      He wrote: “And the MAJORITY of scholars are of the opinion that the Arab species is better (Afdal) than the Non-Arab (species) just as the nation of Quraish is better (Afdal) than the Non-Qurai****e nations and (just as) the nation of Bani Haashim is better (Afdal) than the Non-Bani Haashim (nations).” Majm’u Al-Fataawa 19/29

                      Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) wrote:

                      “Verily, what Ahlul Sunnah is upon: Is the BELIEF (I’tiqaad) that the Arab race is better (Afdal) then the Non-Arab race. Whether (the Non-Arabs) are Hebrews, Aramaic, Romans, Persians and other than them…”. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/419

                      Abu Muhammad, Harb ibn Ismail ibn Khalaf Al-Kirmaany (died 280 – ra) who was one of the students and companions of Imaam Ahmed (ra) also mentioned this point when he wrote about the descriptions and BELIEFS of the PEOPLE OF THE SUNNAH.


                      Shiekh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) said:

                      “Know that the Ahaadith (that show) the superiority of Quraish and then the superiority of Bani Haashim are numerous and this is not the place (to gather all of them) but they also prove this (superiority of the Arab over Non-Arabs).

                      And this is due to the fact that the relationship of Quraish to the Arabs is just like the relationship of the Arabs to the rest of the people (i.e. Qurai****es are superior to Non-Qurai****es and the Arabs are superior to Non-Arabs). Verily Allah the Most High has designated the Arabs and their language with ‘Ahkaam’ that are peculiar and unique.

                      And then He preferred Quraish over the rest of the Arabs in what He has given them of prophecy and other than that from the ‘Khasaais’ (unique and peculiar qualities)”. Iqtidaa As-Siraat-il-Mustaqeem 2/431

                      Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) also said:

                      “…The superiority of the Arab race and then (the superiority of) Quraish and then (the superiority of) Bani Haashim, is not simply due to the fact the Prophet (peace be upon him) is from them – even though this is (a point) of superiority – but instead, they themselves are superior within themselves“. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/420



                      Source: http://singularvoice.wordpress.com/2...e-master-race/
                      Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                      Arab's aren't superior. Doesn't matter what anyone says.
                      that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Indeed Allah has chosen Isma'il from the children of Ibrahim, and He chose Banu Kinanah from the children of Isma'il, and He chose the Quraish from Banu Kinanah, and He chose Banu Hashim from Quraish, and He chose me from Banu Hashim." (sahih al bukhari)


                      can you explain this hadith please ?
                      إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                        There are some excellent posts in here, if only one has the capacity, patience, and understanding to go through them. Unfortunately you can also find silly arrogance in this thread, but masha Allah they are easy to spot and evidently foolish compared to the other posts.

                        UF has definitely lost some excellent members, a lot from before when I joined it seems.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                          Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                          Arab's aren't superior. Doesn't matter what anyone says.
                          true say son
                          Surah Taha, Verse 69:

                          وَأَلْقِ مَا فِي يَمِينِكَ تَلْقَفْ مَا صَنَعُوا إِنَّمَا صَنَعُوا كَيْدُ سَاحِرٍ وَلَا يُفْلِحُ السَّاحِرُ حَيْثُ أَتَىٰ

                          "And throw that which is in your right hand! It will swallow up that which they have made. That which they have made is only a magician's trick,
                          and the magician will never be successful, no matter whatever amount (of skill) he may attain."

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                          Is there such a thing as good magic? by Abu Ibraheem
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                          Comment


                            #73
                            Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                            Originally posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
                            that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Indeed Allah has chosen Isma'il from the children of Ibrahim, and He chose Banu Kinanah from the children of Isma'il, and He chose the Quraish from Banu Kinanah, and He chose Banu Hashim from Quraish, and He chose me from Banu Hashim." (sahih al bukhari)


                            can you explain this hadith please ?
                            What is there to explain? It doesn't prove anything with regards to Arabs being better than non Arabs.
                            You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                            You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                              So according to the logic of those who disagree with the Ijmaa' as claimed by Ibn Taymiyyah and Harb al-Kirmani and hereto not challenged by any other scholars, it is perfectly good to say that Mexicans are better than Arabs or Europeans are better than Arabs, or all nations and races are equal to Arabs.

                              This logic also permits the saying that English is better than Arabic and French culture is better than Arab culture.

                              There isn't a well-recognized scholar of Fiqh, Hadith or Tafseer that would allow saying the above things.

                              Again, the issue is being conflated, back and forth, between individual merit and the linguistic, cultural and behavioral legacies that are innate to whole groups of people.

                              In this way, the linguistic, cultural and behavioral legacy that is "Arabness" inherently involves classical Arabic, Islamic customs and Islamic etiquette. Does that mean that every Arab is a good representative of that legacy or even Muslim?

                              No.

                              What it means is that you cannot take the linguistic, cultural and behavioral legacy of the Mexicans [or any other non-Arab group] and say it is better than or equal to that of the Arabs.

                              Anyone who says so is denying the superiority of a group of people whose legacy includes the language of the Quran, Sunnah and Islamic legal tradition as well as the customs, laws and norms of the Muslims.

                              Mexican linguistic, cultural and behavioral legacies are inherently filled with Shirk, Kufr, unhygienic behavior, improper relations, languages which render Islamic texts unintelligible, inappropriate clothing, hairstyles and interactions, celebrations, and a host of other Haraam and corrupt practices when compared to the legacy of the Arabs.

                              These legacies transcend time, place and ethnicity.

                              Ibn Taymiyyah himself discusses "Arabness" and allows for the "Arabization" of non-Arabs through the adoption of Arab language, culture and behavior.

                              Even modern secular linguistics make similarly relevant arguments about how language transforms and dictates worldview.

                              Often the people who object to this perspective on the superiority of Arabs over non-Arabs, don't realize that their objection is specifically proportional to the level of secularism they adhere to in this area. It is a secular principle of "pluralism" that promotes the idea that all races, cultures, national origins and religions are equal.

                              There isn't a single nation in the world that codifies this idea into law that actually implements or enforces its practice. This is how a "secular" nation like Belgium can outlaw religious clothing. This is how a "secular" nation like the USA can profile individuals based on the linguistic origin of names. So a non-Arab individual will be stopped in an airport or other public place and subjected to harassment just because they have an Arabic name.

                              It's also strange that ever since the European Christians colonized the world and established hegemonic dominance over much of the world, that they did away with their long-time principle that "white" and "Christian" was superior to all the other races. And it is only when these "white Christians" feel threatened in their privilege and dominance that they rally again behind this principle of their superiority. This is evidence with the recent resurgence of truly racist political parties and demagogues in the West like Trump, La Penn, Wilders, etc.

                              The Islamic principle that Arabs are superior to non-Arabs has been around for over 1,000 years and it has never produced a single instance of Islamic law-inspired and racially motivated injustice against a single individual. "Democracy" on the other hand has been around for more than 1,000 years and since its inception, until the present day, it does not cease to produce the most racist and unjust societies ever in existence.

                              Strange how the way of life which insists on the racial superiority of one group over all others has produced the most just and truly prosperous multi-ethnic societies, while the way of life that professes the equality of all races produces the most unjust and racist of societies. It is no accident.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                                Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                                What is there to explain? It doesn't prove anything with regards to Arabs being better than non Arabs.
                                The Istifaa' of Allah conveys "preference", "superiority" and "priority". So when the Prophet SAWS said that Allah "chose" the Arabs, and then the Quraysh, this is understood by all Islamic scholarship to mean that they have "superiority".

                                Allah chose Muhammad SAWS and this is why we call him SAWS "al-Mustafaa". This "choosing" made him SAWS superior to all other Prophets.

                                Allah chose "Islam": {...and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.}[5:3] That is why Islam is superior to all other religions.

                                Denying the "preference" Allah has placed in something is to deny the "superiority" that Allah gave to it and this is to deny Allah.

                                The Hadith of Allah's 'choosing' the Arabs is precisely the proof that every scholar uses to prove the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs. Stating that it is not proof or that its correct explanation opposes this or that Ayah or Hadith is childish.

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